Half the Light of the World and the Warder's Bond

[TheRedSon]

Lanfear being held seems to imply that she was their prisoner.  However, it could also mean she was held because they wouldn't help her leave.  I don't think there's a way out without their help or help from the outside since the doorway melted (accept perhaps through T'A'R and I only say that because of Slayer).

 

Here's a thought...  Is Mat's foxhead medallion unique?  Seems like it should be...  If it's not the Eelfinn may have a huge advantage the Aelfinn didn't when dealing with channelers.

[Luckers]

Is Mat's foxhead medallion unique?  Seems like it should be...  If it's not the Eelfinn may have a huge advantage the Aelfinn didn't when dealing with channelers.

 

No, it is not unique. Both Cadsuane and Nynaeve had a similar ter'angreal. Moreover, the presence of the aes Sedai symbol in the medallion suggests that it was made by Aes Sedai, and since the finn cannot channel that seems to be a safe bet.

 

I don't think there's a way out without their help or help from the outside since the doorway melted (accept perhaps through T'A'R and I only say that because of Slayer).

 

There is another way out, through the Tower of Ghenjei.

[TheRedSon]

No, it is not unique. Both Cadsuane and Nynaeve had a similar ter'angreal. Moreover, the presence of the aes Sedai symbol in the medallion suggests that it was made by Aes Sedai, and since the finn cannot channel that seems to be a safe bet.

 

There is another way out, through the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

I was thinking of other ter'angreal exactly like the foxhead, but ones with similar abilities work just as well as far as that thought went...  I think the Aes Sedai made the foxhead also although I suppose the finns still have some powers we're not privy to.  The point of the question though was whether or not the Eelfinn might have more ter'angreal to protect them from unfriendly channelers laying around.

 

The Tower is surely an entrance/exit from finnland, but we don't know exactly how it works yet (although we have a few solid clues).  I think it would be very difficult if not impossible to exit from the Tower without help from the finns or from the outside.

[Luckers]

I was thinking of other ter'angreal exactly like the foxhead, but ones with similar abilities work just as well as far as that thought went...

 

Cadsuane's ter'angreal goes cold when people embrace the source, and break weaves, just as Mat's does. And whilst we don't know about the temparature gauge in Nynaeve's, it breaks weaves in precisely the same manner as Mat's. What were you looking for in terms of exactness?

 

The point of the question though was whether or not the Eelfinn might have more ter'angreal to protect them from unfriendly channelers laying around.

 

The ter'angreal seem pretty unique in the sense that they were specifically made and that knowledge of their creation is limited--their creation occured only during the breaking; prior to the breaking such ter'angreal were unknown, and after it the ability to make ter'angreal was lost. Your dealing with, at best, a three hundred year period.

 

My guess given the similar nature of the ter'angreal is that they were made by two women, a teacher, who made Cadsuane's understated an elegant set, and and a student, who made Nynaeve's garish, yet in terms of use, more sophisticated set. My belief is that Mat's ter'angreal was made by the teacher relatively early in the breaking before the doorways were lost.

 

Even if they were made by a complete random, however, given the detail on the medallion it seems specific to a specific interaction between an Aes Sedai and a Finn. In short, no, they don't have many such toys.

 

And furthermore, if they did, Cyndane shows absolutely that they were never used against Lanfear.

[VampireGoat]

First off im new here, Hi

 

now to the topic

 

I don't think it's such a great idea to just rule out the 'finns ability to touch the one power, they may not be able to touch the source in the same way human channelers but I do think they have a connection.

 

  While someone may well have made the ter'angreal there are a few point about it which I think indicate it was made by their hand. Now I don't personally recall at any point Nynaeve or Cadsuane having ter'angreal that did the same job as mat's, having recently finished reading the series through for the first time recently im pretty sure I didn't read anything indicating more of ter'angreals that performed that job at any point. Also I believe Nynaeve's stock came from what was taken from Ebou Dar, and Elayne was still kicking up a fuss about not getting a look at Mat's medallion long after they'd have aquired that lot, I think they would have been some large note taken if they'd found another. I could be and probably am wrong however.

  Back to the point ot mat's ter'angreal. Operating on the idea that nyn and cad don't have copies of the same angreal it brings me back to mat's being unique. Also it's worth noting what it looks like. The medallion clearly resembles a fox, coincedently the same creatures the eelfin resembles. Yes, it has an aes sedia symbol in it's eye but mat's request was protection from aes sedia. If we take it on appearence only that medallion could easily be viewed as an Eelfin made ward against aes sedia which matches mat's request to the letter.This is a rather lose arguement but that's the impression I got when reading.

 

  Moving on to the spear he received. This I feel it a LOT better evidence of them being able to make power based items. This is a power made spear as we're told, but its not just that it also has the agreement made carved into it, but it bears a raven, mat's new logo as of KoD. Are we really operating on the idea that they just 'happened' to have a power wrout spear with the agreement written on it and a mat's soon to be noble titles symbol on it?

 

  If the Eelfin can't use the power to create things to grant wishes then they're ability to grant wishes in itself becomes a lot less credible. I can't imagin mat's deal going something like this:

 

  "right he's out cold, you stuff them memories in his head while I pop out to the store room to grab one of them raven spears and see if we've got any of thoose fox heads we ordered left"

  "What if we're all out of them?"

  "I dunno we'll write him a letter or something 'Please don't use the power on this man - signed eelfin' that should do it"

 

  Doesn't seem resonable and the items seem to specific to have been made by someone else by chance. I can't see the eelfin writing up a shopping list and posting it to the aes sedia so the last I think could be possible is that it's within their power as creatures that grant wishes to create items to meet the requests posted to them otherwise if seeing mat's great medallion they get a massive influx of new customers all asking for the same thing they're gonna long before they run out and start fobbing people off with a bannana and a packet of crisps. The Eelfin have got to be able to grant wishes else they become redundant which means sooner or later they've gotta do some thing which can be described as nothing less then magic, they MUST have some kinda of funky powers. Wiether those powers use the one power can be debated but they have to be able to grant wishes which in most cases arn't going to be something they have sitting around they can just give so they have to be able to 'do' things. Creating ter'angreals and power made spears should be a very simple matter for beings that take on the roll of a sadist genie.

 

Before this rant finishes (works finished now so time to stop writting and go home) I also want to bring up one other small detail thats bothered me.

 

  I liked the idea of mat gaining access to past lives memories, until KoD it seemed perfectly possible that was the reasoning since he was showing signs of such things already happening back in tDR. If you remeber correctly mat was remebering the old tounge before he visited either 'finns and was roaring out loud with the memories of a manethren soldies at aes sedia while they were healing him of the daggers taint. He'd already displayed memories of times gone by hovering in him in the form of the old tounge and proved that the lives of soldiers, or their memories at least where already in him, the 'finns as far as I can tell, merely completed a process that was already happening.

 

While most of my ideas have probably been proven wrong and stupid, thought i'd voice them anyway

[Luckers]

While someone may well have made the ter'angreal there are a few point about it which I think indicate it was made by their hand. Now I don't personally recall at any point Nynaeve or Cadsuane having ter'angreal that did the same job as mat's, having recently finished reading the series through for the first time recently im pretty sure I didn't read anything indicating more of ter'angreals that performed that job at any point. Also I believe Nynaeve's stock came from what was taken from Ebou Dar, and Elayne was still kicking up a fuss about not getting a look at Mat's medallion long after they'd have aquired that lot, I think they would have been some large note taken if they'd found another. I could be and probably am wrong however.

 

Unfortunately, and with kindness, you are wrong.

 

By the by, before i begin, in addressing this point, i learned that the wotmania FAQ cannot be trusted. Certain details seemed incongruent to me, so i researched the issue and discovered that they were indeed wrong. Specifically, the quote in regaurds to Cadsuance's ter'angreal is misworded, and secondly, that quote is from the Path of Daggers, not the Crown of Swords. What else their FAQ has wrong, i am uncertain, but be fairly warned...

 

Anyway, firstly, we know Nynaeve has a ter'angreal that does precisely the same thing as Mat's--specfically, breaking a weave. Specifically, we witness Alivia wearing the ter'angreal in Winter's Heart whilst Cyndane throws a ball of fire at her.

 

Just as it reached the woman, almost close enough to singe her garments, the web of Fire unravelled. The woman did not do anything; the net simply came apart! Cyndane had never heard of a ter’angreal that would break a web, but it must be that.

 

~ [Winter’s Heart - Chapter 35 - With The Choedan Kal]

 

This precisely matches the way Mat's ter'angreal functions.

 

Then we have Cadsuane's ter'angreal. Firstly, we have her encounter with Alanna.

 

Alanna stiffened. The light of saidar suddenly shone around

 

"If you wish to truly be foolish." Cadsuane smiled. A cold smile. She made no move to embrace the source herself. One of her dangling hair ornaments, intertwined golden crescents, went cool on her temple.

 

~ [The Path of Daggers - New Alliances].

 

Note the specific mention of the cold temperature of her ter'angreal when Alanna siezes saidar, and specifically states that she does not draw on the source, yet conciders herself in control. The comparison to Mat's ter'angreal is clear. But, moving on, then we have Setalle Anan (aka Martine Jenata, an expert on ter'angreal).

 

"Joline must have tried to stop you, and Teslyn and Edesina as well, but whatever they did failed. I think that means you posess a ter'angreal that can disrupt flows of the Power. I've heard of such things--Cadsuane Melaidhrin supposedly had one.

 

~ [Knife of Dreams - A Cold Medallion]

 

Then you have the encounter with Semirhage in KoD, which i frankly think is a different ter'angreal, but nevertheless Cadsuane breaks weaves.

 

Back to the point ot mat's ter'angreal. Operating on the idea that nyn and cad don't have copies of the same angreal it brings me back to mat's being unique.

 

Well, excluding the fact that Cadsuane and Nynaeve DO have the same form of ter'angreal, and Mat's is not unique... they are ter'angreal, not angreal. Angreal allow a person to draw more of the power.

 

  Moving on to the spear he received. This I feel it a LOT better evidence of them being able to make power based items. This is a power made spear as we're told, but its not just that it also has the agreement made carved into it, but it bears a raven, mat's new logo as of KoD. Are we really operating on the idea that they just 'happened' to have a power wrout spear with the agreement written on it and a mat's soon to be noble titles symbol on it?

 

Actually it more likely that an Aes Sedai made the device to Finn specifications based on a percieved need as supplied by their ability to see into the future. I state this as A) the finns cannot channel, and therefore cannot make power wrough steel and b) the specific nature of the spear indicates that it was made specifically.

 

If the Eelfin can't use the power to create things to grant wishes then they're ability to grant wishes in itself becomes a lot less credible. I can't imagin mat's deal going something like this:

 

  "right he's out cold, you stuff them memories in his head while I pop out to the store room to grab one of them raven spears and see if we've got any of thoose fox heads we ordered left"

  "What if we're all out of them?"

  "I dunno we'll write him a letter or something 'Please don't use the power on this man - signed eelfin' that should do it"

 

Actually, thats probably the way it happened. Only they were a lot less brittish when they did it.

 

Doesn't seem resonable and the items seem to specific to have been made by someone else by chance. I can't see the eelfin writing up a shopping list and posting it to the aes sedia

 

Actually i would suggest that it is very specific, though i dont think thats unreasonable given the Aelfinn ability to see the future. Beyond that i do very much think it possible that over the course of the hundreds of years of trade with Aes Sedai that they devel;op exactly such an invantory.

 

The Eelfin have got to be able to grant wishes else they become redundant which means sooner or later they've gotta do some thing which can be described as nothing less then magic, they MUST have some kinda of funky powers.

 

The Eelfinn are not magical fairies. They are creatures with a natural ability that they offer in trade for something they want. There are limits to their ability. Specifically, they can't channel, and though it has no relevance to this conversation, they also cannot transfer or keep souls. RJ has stated this.

 

Creating ter'angreals and power made spears should be a very simple matter for beings that take on the roll of a sadist genie.

 

Again, they are not genies. They are not magical. They are natural creatures with souls who offer natural abilities for the purpose of trade. They cannot channel, and subsequent of that fact they also cannot create ter'angreal or power-wrought metals of any form.

 

I liked the idea of mat gaining access to past lives memories, until KoD it seemed perfectly possible that was the reasoning since he was showing signs of such things already happening back in tDR. If you remeber correctly mat was remebering the old tounge before he visited either 'finns and was roaring out loud with the memories of a manethren soldies at aes sedia while they were healing him of the daggers taint. He'd already displayed memories of times gone by hovering in him in the form of the old tounge and proved that the lives of soldiers, or their memories at least where already in him, the 'finns as far as I can tell, merely completed a process that was already happening.

 

Mat is strong in the Old Blood, much like Egwene. That being said, his past live memories are not a function of that, they are memories extracted from people who went through the Tower of Ghenjei (a relatively common experience during the period between the Breaking and the War of a Hundred Years). Following that entry the Finns were able to spy on they experiences, which provides for the memories Mat has.

[TheRedSon]

I was thinking of other ter'angreal exactly like the foxhead, but ones with similar abilities work just as well as far as that thought went...

 

Cadsuane's ter'angreal goes cold when people embrace the source, and break weaves, just as Mat's does. And whilst we don't know about the temparature gauge in Nynaeve's, it breaks weaves in precisely the same manner as Mat's. What were you looking for in terms of exactness?

 

The point of the question though was whether or not the Eelfinn might have more ter'angreal to protect them from unfriendly channelers laying around.

 

The ter'angreal seem pretty unique in the sense that they were specifically made and that knowledge of their creation is limited--their creation occured only during the breaking; prior to the breaking such ter'angreal were unknown, and after it the ability to make ter'angreal was lost. Your dealing with, at best, a three hundred year period.

 

My guess given the similar nature of the ter'angreal is that they were made by two women, a teacher, who made Cadsuane's understated an elegant set, and and a student, who made Nynaeve's garish, yet in terms of use, more sophisticated set. My belief is that Mat's ter'angreal was made by the teacher relatively early in the breaking before the doorways were lost.

 

Even if they were made by a complete random, however, given the detail on the medallion it seems specific to a specific interaction between an Aes Sedai and a Finn. In short, no, they don't have many such toys.

 

And furthermore, if they did, Cyndane shows absolutely that they were never used against Lanfear.

 

First...  Simple misunderstanding.  Nyn's and Cad's ter'angreal have the same ability as Mat's.  I meant is the foxhead unique as a whole work rather than unique in ability.  My thought was did an AS make them one foxhead medeallion or one for each of the Eelfinn she (he?) dealt with?  Whether or not they had other "such toys" was the point of the question. 

 

I like your guess on the origin of the ter'angreal.  Is it totally a guess or should I have picked up on something while I was reading?  It certainly fits what we know about that time period.

 

Call me dense...  Why does Cyndane prove that they didn't use it against Lanfear?

 

In your response to VampireGoat you said the finns probably had these specific items because their ability to tell the future meant they could prepare for the need of them (correct my paraphrase if it's wrong)...  I didn't think the Eelfinn could tell the future...  Do you think the Aelfinn told them what they would need?

 

Totally off topic...  Should we assume the other two ter'angreal could hurt the gholam or is the material used in making the foxhead also important?

 

Your memory (or ability to research quickly at least) are amazing btw.

 

Not so brittish... LOL

[Gentled Ben]

Call me dense...  Why does Cyndane prove that they didn't use it against Lanfear?

 

You aren't dense, and here's the proof that you asked for:

 

Just as it reached the woman, almost close enough to singe her garments, the web of Fire unravelled. The woman did not do anything; the net simply came apart! Cyndane had never heard of a ter’angreal that would break a web, but it must be that.

 

~ [Winter’s Heart - Chapter 35 - With The Choedan Kal]

 

I stole it from Luckers' post and added the emphasis.  :)

[Seriodor]

Umm on the whole thing about whether or not the 'finns made Mat's spear and his medallion. I think they had to have made it. What they gave him was to specific. I mean a fox headed medallion from a race of fox resembling creatures? A spear with not only his future insignia on it, but also a message that pertains to the situation he was in? Saying that they were both made by Aes'sedai, because she thought that maybe someday that someone might need them, and request for them from a group of hard to reach wish granters, is a little too far of a stretch.

[Luckers]

First...  Simple misunderstanding.  Nyn's and Cad's ter'angreal have the same ability as Mat's.  I meant is the foxhead unique as a whole work rather than unique in ability.  My thought was did an AS make them one foxhead medeallion or one for each of the Eelfinn she (he?) dealt with?  Whether or not they had other "such toys" was the point of the question.

 

Ah sorry... lol. I guess by 'exact' you meant, er, exact. Lol. My bad.

 

Well, there is nothing directly precluding the possibility, but we do know that they weren't used on Lanfear since Cyndane had never encountered anything of the sort.

 

I like your guess on the origin of the ter'angreal.  Is it totally a guess or should I have picked up on something while I was reading?  It certainly fits what we know about that time period.

 

It's mostly a guess, though its made based on a few things.

 

1. We know that knowledge was limited--it never became widespread, even before the knowledge of how to make ter'angreal was lost completely.

 

2. Given the difference in the nature between Cadsuane's understated and elegant set, and Nynaeve's set, i would suggest that they were made by two different people. One who was restrained, and one who was more aggressive.

 

3. To me, Nynaeve's seems like it was made later, because it works better (her well holds more, and whilst she has ter'angreal that can do everything Cadsuane's can (except the vibrating star) she then still has another couple that can do other things, (the air armour ring, the ring that detects anger) not to mention the two rings, a necklace and two bracelets that she doesn't know the use for).

 

The combination suggests to me an older woman and a younger one--a master and a student. The student perfects the masters designs, yet lacks her artistic flare.

 

Totally off topic...  Should we assume the other two ter'angreal could hurt the gholam or is the material used in making the foxhead also important?

 

My guess is yes. I suspect it is the interaction between the two anti-Power fields that causes the exothermic reaction (or is it endothermic? I can never remember. It makes heat. Lol, such a nerd.)

 

But the fact is, unless we see it we simply cannot say for sure.

 

Umm on the whole thing about whether or not the 'finns made Mat's spear and his medallion. I think they had to have made it. What they gave him was to specific. I mean a fox headed medallion from a race of fox resembling creatures? A spear with not only his future insignia on it, but also a message that pertains to the situation he was in? Saying that they were both made by Aes'sedai, because she thought that maybe someday that someone might need them, and request for them from a group of hard to reach wish granters, is a little too far of a stretch.

 

The suggestion is that the Aes Sedai made them in payment for whatever she (they) got from them at the specification of the Finns. They were the ones who more than probably foresaw the need for such things.

 

The presense of the understated Aes Sedai symbol in the greater image of the fox suggests interaction in the making, and given the juxtaposition of the two within that image it seems clear that it was made for the Foxes by the Aes Sedai. The symbol was like a signature on the deal. Which, of course, makes sense given that the Finns can't channel, and therefore can't create either ter'angreal or power-wrought metal.