Hello everyone, 

     While fishing this afternoon, I began thinking about the WOT (Mainly to take my mind off how bad a fisherman I am) and two things occurred to me. One was something that I've never seen discussed and the other is something I think is a plot hole.

First, does anyone know what the significance of the "al" prefix in in the Two Rivers? I mean some families have it and some don't, but it doesn't seem to denote social standing. I mean Rand, Nyneave, Egwene and their families all sport the "al", but they don't seem to have a higher social standing than do the Cauthons, the Aybaras, the Luhans , Cenn Bui or any of the others. So, what does it mean? Is it like the  "O" or "Mac", "Mc" or "Map" found in Celtic cultures or the "ibn" found in many Islamic states? Just curious.

    Second, is the hole on the plot that has bugged me for awhile (and this is a two parter). Why does Alana go to Shayol Ghul  and why doesn't Rand know that she's been injured? The only reference I know regarding her disappearance is Rand noting she's gone north, nothing more. Well, as he's her Warder, you'd think he'd know if she was hurt (which she was).The fact that Moridin purposefully hurt her to distract Rand confirms this. so, why  didn't he know before hand?  For that matter, if the  Great Lord wanted to win the Last Battle, why'd he keep her alive at all? If he killed her, Rand would have gone insane and been useless to fight at Shayol Ghul (a fact confirmed by Moridin's actions in killing her after the bore was sealed.). For a while I thought that she might be a darkfriend and masking her whereabout, but I read several treatesies on the subject and now don't think that is the case (most notable by the fact that she released him as she was dying to prevent Moridin from winner..Not the action of a Black siter). All I know is that she went north in response to Verin's letter, she was held by Moridin in the Pit Of Doom, injured to weaken Rand and ultimately killed for the same purpose.

    Anyone have any imput on these two subjects? Thanks in advance...tud

Mashiara Sedai, I'm not disputing your point about the pattern. In fact, Moiraine  plainly was aware of it as evidenced by her admonition to not reveal the contents of her letter to Mat until he asked to read it. What I noted in my re-read of EOTW was what appears to be a continuity error regarding Moiraine telling Thom that he needs Mat to tell him where the Tower of Ghenji  was located.  In EOTW, Thom saw it at the same time as Mat and had its significance explained to him (and Mat)  by Bayle Doman. Thom needed Mat to enter the  Tower and  he needed his luck to survive and to successfully rescue Moiraine, but he didn't need his knowledge to locate the Tower. 

Well, actually no, Mat isn't better at locating the tower. For one thing, Thom wasn't distracted when they encountered the tower on the boat.  He actually makes mention of seeing the Tower when they encountered it. Also, Thom's memory of the trip  is fine. Much better than  Mat's. Unlike Mat, he didn't have holes chewed in his memory by the dagger and wasn't sick at the time. Finally, Mat generalship has nothing to do with Moiraine telling Thom that Mat knows where the tower is. you could say that  perhaps she doesn't  know, but if so, why didn't Thomreact when he read the letter?  

I don't dispute the point that Talmanes is making, I'm just asking why she told Thom that Mat can tell him where the Tower Of Ghenji is when Thom already knew. He gained that knowledge at the same time Mat did...Going down river with Rand on Bayle Doman's boat in  EOTW. It doesn't make sense that Moiraine would see in the rings that Mat knew where the tower was and  not see that Thom had the same knowledge. Also, why didn't Thom remark on it when he showed the letter to Mat? In fact, considering the whole in Mat's memory, Thom was more likely to recall the incident.

 While I agree that Mat had to be one of the three to make the rescue attempt, that doesn't explain why Moiraine told Thom that only  Mat would be able to tell him where the Tower Of Ghengi was located.  He already knew and if Moiraine could tell him the Mat knew the way, then she'd also know that Thom had seen it at the same time. It doesn't make sense. 

                                                                                     tud

Just on a whim (too much time on my hands), I recently started re-reading  the series. I'm well into the EOTW and hit the scene where Mat first sees the Tower Of Ghengi.  As I read the scene, I flash forwarded to Mat reading Moiraine's  letter to Thom regarding her rescue in Towers Of Midnight. As I recall, the letter specifically tells Thom that only a team consisting  of himself, Mat and one other can succeed. No problem with any of that since Mat is the one to figure out how to use the lines from the Fox and Snakes game to gain entry to the tower and out fox the Aelfin (I think those are the people holding her). What did bring me up short though was the part about Mat being the only person who can tell Thom where the Tower of Ghengi is located. That's absolutely not true. Thom was standing right next to Mat on Bayle Domon's boat when they first encountered the Tower. That being the case, there's no need for Thom to consult Mat about it's location. Of course, Moiraine wasn't there when the tower hove into sight so you could argue that she wasn't aware of Thom's presence, but if that's the case, how did she know that Mat had seen it and knew where it was? Also, why didn't Thom remind  Mat about the tower when Mat read the letter (I believe Moiraine told Thom that he had to wait until Mat asked to see the letter before showing it to him).

This question may have been already posed and if it has been, my apologies. However, I couldn't find any reference to it , so I'm posing it now. What give's? Is this another continuity error like with Perrin's on-again, off-again sisters or is there another explanation?  

Thanks, tud

    The worry I have is with the emphasis on Moiraine which would completely change the dynamic of th story. I say this because of what happened last year with another series I love. The Mitford series  by Jan Karon is a story about an Episcopal Priest in western N.C.  It's all about his experiences. So, last year Andie McDowell purchased the filming rights and made a movie of the first book. As you might expect, she cast herself as Fr. Murphy's love interest, Cynthia. Nothing inherently wrong with that except for the fact that she changed the pov of the series to her character and totally ruined the entire story. Fr. Murphy is described as a short, middle-aged, balding guy who wins Cynthia's heart by being kind (he adopts an abandoned 10 yr. old boy, etc. In the obscenity  she produced he is young, tall and handsome and competes with another tall, handsome  man for her affections. 

   In short, she ruined the series for her vanity.

    That is not what I want to happen here. Yeah, I know that the Mr. Jordan flipped the power structure giving us a world where women occupy the power position, but I don't want a film where the women take the center stage and shunt Rand, Mat and Perrin into support roles. 

Tud

Frankly, I think Ms. Butler's choice of Significant moments is pretty good, but I'd think that if the parameters of the choice is significant character development, then you'd have to include the moment when Mat rode down the hill to save the Cairhenen and Tairens in Fires Of Heaven.  That was the moment when his true character came to be ( doing the right thing right while complaining about not wanting to ) and his mastery of the battlefield came to be recognized (Beyond what he did with Lan in the planning tent). IMHO, I feel that subsequent to that moment  he faced the most situations where he had to make a choice and  he consistently chose  to be selfless while at the same time reflecting on what an idiot he was for doing so.  It's what made him such a compelling and likable character.

Sorry about a second post so soon after my first, but this one is squarely on topic: who should play the characters.

For Moiraine, I think that Racheal Wiez(Sp?) would fit the bill. I think she is actually close to be the actual age of Moiraine (early forties) ,she has almost the correct stature and coloring. Alternatively, you could cast Racheal Striling, a very fine British actress.

For Lan, it would have to be someone tall and older..Cavil almost fits the bill except he's too good looking...Lan's supposed to be forbidding looking/grim.

For Nyneave you could cast Natalie Portman .

For  Egwene, you could try Camilla Mendes from Riverdale. She possesses the correct age, coloring and height.

For Rand, Mat and Perrin, I think you'd have to go with newcomers or relative unknowns. no one else fits the bill.

I agree that Sam Elliot would make a pretty good Tom.

Thinking about it, I think Cavill would be better cast as Galad..He has that pretty boy look to him (And that's not a knock. I actually think he's a pretty good actor).

Hey, I just noticed something, a lot the actors I've mentioned are British.  Here, I complained about the idea of making the Andorans have a British accent and I recommend British actors. So much for my credibility!*G*

Tud 

I've a question about accents...Why do we need to have the Two Rivers Folk and main characters have British accents? They aren't used in the sound recordings and no mention of any kind of accent is noted in the books (Despite the unfortunate idea of giving the Royal Andoran  family members pseudo- British accents.).  To my recollection, the only accents noted in the series were the clipped tones of the Cairhienin (sp?) (very clipped) and the Seanchen (drawling)

.I've also noted in previous discussions where an attempt was made to ascribe an actual nation/region to the WOT nations a continual assertion that Andor/The Two rivers is equivalent of England/Ireland..Again Why? On the same subject, describing the Aiel as Scottish based solely on their hair color is  off in my opinion since their battle tatics are clearly drawn from the Zulus (weapons  and tactics) and their cultures is more closely akin to the Japanese (Je'etoh)  Also, I heard Mr. Jordan once describe the  Seanchan as a mixture of The Mongol and The Ottoman Empires.

Sorry about the above off topic discussions of nations to the point that it diverges  from my original query regarding accents; but, parts of that discussion also impact the accent issue, IMHO. 

tud

I finished the book and felt a little numb as I closed the book. I really liked the way that AMOL's last two or so paragrpahs were a mirror image of the first two or so paragraph's EOTW. That made it all the more sad to read. Overall, I liked the book, but like others, I felt it was a bit "rushed" and it left out details I would have had addressed.

My biggest complaint about the book comes at the end. I think it would have been a better ending if Rand had met Perrin and Mat at some private spot after he'd left the camp. Just a short meeting explaining what happened and why he had to leave. After all, without the efforts of the two of them, he would have certainly failed. He may have been The Dragon Reborn", but they were his "Great Captians". As Min saw, without them being there, he would have failed. That being the case, it would seem fitting that he take a personal leavetaking from both of them.

Then he could have ridden off with them watching until he passed beyond sight and then have the wind rise that wasn't the end, but was an ending..

IMHO, that would ahve been a great (If cliched, but as someone pointed out, his whole body switch was something of a cliche) way to end the series. either that, or flash forward a year and have Rand/Moridin approach Tam's farmhouse at sundown and end as he walked into the house..

At least that's the way I would have ended it...

Regarding the Green's performance or lack thereof in the lB, before we dump all over them consider tow things : First, this is  Mr. Sanderson version of the LB which is completely different in many ways than Mr. Jordan's version. MR. Jordans' books were rich with discriptive detail (Many times way too much) and he had an idea of what he wanted for every element of the story. Mr. Sanderson, has a diferent style which is much leaner in the way of minor details.  

Which leads to the second point

Because there was so much to be dealt with in describing the LB, it seems clear to me that the actual exploits of each Ajah was descarded. With few exceptions (The Yellows in Mayene and the fight on the hilltops in kandor being notable exceptions), we really aren't given any details about what the various Ajahs were doing. . Individuals were mentioned, but most itmes there was no mention of their various ajahs.

Which is a round about way to say that we really haven't got enough information to slam any Ajah for being all cattle and no hat.

I'd prefer to think that each and every Ajah did their level best  in very bad circumstances.

One final point, before slamming the AS as a whole or individual Ajahs for their perfomance in the LB remember that the LB was the very  first time that they actually squared off against not only Foresaken. Before they'd fought Dreadlords which aren't nearly as powerful. Worse, the two Foresaken they faced were  wielding sa'angreals (I think ..they could have been Angreals). Does anyone think that Damandred and/or Taim would have been able to inflict the damage they did if they didn't have those weapons? I think that Taim would have been wiped out pretty darn quick and despite being in a circle, Damandred wouldn't fared much better.    

Regarding the issue of foreshadowing related to Egwene's death, it actually did occur. If you will reacll, just before the meeting with rand and the other rulers, she was asleep at the wT. While sleeping she was "dreaning" and one of the dreams was of a crystaline pillar, standing by itself. That was the pillar Leane found after Egwene took out Taim and the Sharan channelers. As for her dying, that I hated. What exactly was the point? This isn't some version of the squalid Game Of Thrones where everyone dies, this is WOT where people die for a purpose and I don't think that Egwene's was that needful. Think of all the things she had set in motion which will bot now come to fruitition: All women who can channel being brought to the tower, the deals with the Aiel and the Sea Folk, the Kinswomen? Will any of these still go forward (Well, the overage novice's will since it is already in play, but the others?)?

Jack

Sorry if this seems a little off topic, but I can't seem to start a thread on the subject and this seems the best thread to discuss the issue.. also, I've checked the threads and it doesn't seem that anyone seems to have caught this . If someone already has, then I apologize..

Anyway, here goes..Did anyone else notice how the entire series was totally cyclical? AMOL ended in a mirror image of the way EOTW began (Not counting the prologues)..In EOTW, at the beginning of the first chapter, We get the wind blowing in the woods in the Two Rivers and the words: This was not a beginning, there are no beginnings with the Wheel Of Time, but it was a beginning. Then we get Rand's first POV. Flash forward two million words and 22 years and what happens at the end? We get Rand's POV (again), followed by a wind rising and soaring and the words: "This wind,it was not the ending. There are no endings and never will be to the turning of the Wheel Of time". But it was an ending."

As sad as those words made me, I really liked the way Mr. Jordan set up the entire magnificant epic to be one, gigantic cycle. I don't know why, but I found that very profound.

I'm sorry if I've wasted anyone's time on this point. I just thought that this might be the best place to bring it up since I can't just post an independant thread on the subject.

tud