Oh, no!  :'( Please dear Borg, do not assimilate me.

Corrected. And Seven of Nine, go ahead and assimilate the crap out of him with your baseball bat.

Ummmm . . . I think I'll stay out of this one. ;) My baseball bat is for games and for payback.

What did the Seanchan bring to the battle that Rand's forces would not have?

Forkroot.

Which begs the question. Did Perrin's little trip use up enough Forkroot to make it a nonissue for a while--at least for large numbers?

Give me any part of the text that would support Perrin believing Rand would kill him for coming to him with the problem of his wife being kidnapped.

How about the part where he thought Rand was about to kill him, the last time he saw him.

I took that differently than you appear to. I thought it was all part of a plan. Rand's (now typical) bad temper got the better of him, but Perrin is still working to help Rand (now that Perrin's little distraction has been corrected).

would not debate

My issue with Faile is that she expected Perrin to be able to read her mind. There wasn't any real debate. She just punished him for disappointing her but wouldn't tell what he'd done wrong.

Oh, no!  :'( Please dear Borg, do not hit me.

Resistance is futile.

This discussion about strength in men and women and violence against each other obviously is based upon our personal experiences and standards. We judge Mat and Perrin accordingly.

But a frying pan and a baseball bat are the great equalizers!  ;)

In this series there is a disturbing amount of sexism against men, and the men cant do jack about it, because they are women. It is twisted, and sad, and wrong, no matter what the justification.

Well, fair is fair. The sexism you refer to, imo, isn't all that different than just acknowledging the differences between men and women--how we frequently have different takes on things, what things are important to us, how logical we think the other gender is, etc. Frequently when women in RL get together and talk about their men, there's a lot of of understanding eye rolling because of those differences, and men tend to do the same thing. What struck me in this series is that the women are usually more empowered in society than they are in RL (with the backing of law and custom in many of the various societies).

What bugs me is how so many of them in musings about each other makes that difference one of incompetence. Men and women ARE different in many things, but those differences can be great strengths, because those differing viewpoints can show weaknesses people with one mindset could miss. The WoT world is changing culturally as the series develops (probably the Two Rivers being the one with the greatest changes). People are on the move like they haven't been in Millennium.

Personally, I think a great deal of the sexism we see directed specifically at men is a result of the taint. It left it's mark of guilty association. Women who can channel carry a little of it, but all men (perhaps because there could be that potential in them) have it as well.

What he did was make a deal with the devil. You can try to sugar coat it, but Perrin made a deal with some very shady people.  Even he admits that.  This deal would have been avoided by asking Rand for help.

And Mat just married their Empress.

I didn't see Perrin's deal with the Seanchan as a deal with the Devil--the Seanchan aren't DFs after all. I saw it as building a future relationship that could come into play to Rand's advantage once the Seanchan issue is settled and Tuon is brought in line (that's going to take some doing!).

I hate to bring this up *again* but Perrin is the author avatar here. I don't think RJ appreciated that when he's on record many many many times as stating Perrin is his favorite character, Perrin is the character that most resembles him, etc. his readers might be a little weirded out when that avatar has a dysfunctional relationship with an unstable masochist.

Well, I love Perrin, and I hope the two of them (if they survive) develop a healthier relationship and that I don't always think of her as despicable. It's rather gratifying for me, being new to the WoT boards, to find that my reaction to her isn't just be being weird. (don't say it!)

The butchering scene with Perrin actually reminded me a bit of the Jack character on the TV show "24" when he would do something almost no one would approve of because it needed to be done quickly to save many lives. It showed how far our gentle black smith had come. War is hell, and the people who live through it spend much of their lives recovering from the experience. I learned very early in our marriage not to stand close to my Vietnam Vet hubby when I woke him up from a nap.

Not generally, but I think that's for two reasons.  In my mind a woman with the power is stronger than a man, so it bothers me less because not only can she generally defend herself but she could take on multiple men with casual ease.

But with his medallion, Mat had neutralized her strength, so how is it really any different?

RJ was of an age with my husband, who is a few years older than I am. How the world viewed physical violence against women has changed since we were young. I lent a copy of my DVD of the film The Quiet Man to a coworker, and when I asked her how she liked it (she's GenXer and a gentle soul), and she didn't really enjoy it. It troubled her the way the John Wayne character manhandled the Maureen O'Hara character (his wife) in the film. There was even the scene where the little old lady offered John a stick so he could beat the pretty lady. I didn't offer my coworker the lending of my film McClintock, because there's another wife beating scene--well spanking.

I'm not into guys who "beat" women, and a smart man (and woman) should make every effort to find a way to deal with anyone short of violence, but I take exception that a man should never be able to defend himself from a physically abusive woman. Should Mat have let the Shaido Aiel DF kill him?

I got my black belt in Karate last year, and if a guy would never hit me, how would I ever be able to spar? I've taken hits from plenty of guys, though normally my sparring partners are women. A strong man could still take me, but I'd certainly make him earn it.  :D

The second reason is that's Mat's storyline was interesting, where Perrin's was not.  Its harder to nitpick when you are swept up in a good story.  Its easy when that story isn't compelling, and in fact is often used as a sleeping aid.

You crack me up!

It wouldn't have hurt if there had been some connection back to Rand's party - perhaps through Davram Bashere? But there wasn't, so for a whole while, Perrin felt removed from the main occurences in Randland and thus marginalized any importance his actions had in that arc.

The only connection I can think of is the views of Rand that the taver'en draw has on Perrin.

Faile was raised in a culture that both husband and wife carry the strength of the family and showing back bone and taking care of buisness is proper. She also tries to make Perrin act as though he were raised the same. while Perrin was raised by a bunch of timid wimps that allowed a petite, 26 year old, mouthy, woman push them around as though they were the very sheep they sheared.

Ooooo, guess you're not a Nynaeve fan . . .

Is Mat being blasted for spanking an AS as badly as Perrin for spanking Faile?

Perrin tosses aside duty to chase his wife.  Actions speak louder than words.  If he needed to become a darkfriend to save her, he would.

You know, it had never occurred to me to take some of Perrin's thoughts literally. But after reading all these comments about Perrin, and hitting that part in KoD, it gave me pause. I told my hubby about the theory that Perrin could turn, and he flatly refused to consider it.

Is this just a theory, or do you really think RJ could take Perrin there?

married a power tripping psycho

No, he didn't.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this then.

who--in spite of her having been raised in a supposedly more sophisticated place like a queen's court expects the poor blacksmith to read her mind

You mean, is young and immature, and doesn't sit down and explain Saldaean culture to him.

Exactly. I've been willing to cut her some slack for her immaturity, and she has at least begun to learn something, but I expected more from someone of her background. As irritating as Elayne can be at times, she was better educated or at least listened better in her training. Faile being 3rd from the throne should have received better training about cultural differences. Her stint with the Shaido will help I think.

Ow! I never realized so many people didn't like Perrin. I think he rocks. He's young and dumb and married a power tripping psycho who--in spite of her having been raised in a supposedly more sophisticated place like a queen's court expects the poor blacksmith to read her mind--but other than that I think their biggest problems relate to their immaturity and youth. She's also the line to a throne for him if he survives TG.

I don't mind Perrin's humility. I rather like it. Too many people suddenly shoved into that kind of position start believing their own press and become incredibly arrogant. It's a nice change.

The problem I have with Perrin is how obsessed he his with his wife.

 

His thought process....

 

Faile, need to eat, Faile, Faile, need to tie my shoe, Faile, need to rescue Rand from the evil Aes Sedai, Faile, Faile, Faile.

 

He doesn't do anything without first thinking what she thinks.  I used to dislike her, not so much now, because of it.

I'm hoping Perrin will grow past this. One thing he needs to accept is that he has a warrior wife. He needs to let her be a grown up and make her own choices, even if those put her in the thick of battle. And she needs to recognize their cultural differences and not assume he understands what she expects.

Elayne's story line makes me want to read tax law while being beaten by 100 angry Aielmen.

Too right! That totally made my day!!

Yeah, reading about Mat is great in contrast with Rand and Perrin. The latter two are always so focused on doing what's right and being responsible, but not Mat - he just wants to gamble and fondle with equal delight. It's always fun seeing responsibility trying to settle itself on Mat's shoulders :D.

Well, Mat's fondling days better be over because his wife would make him sing soprano if she caught being a philanderer. :D

Faile's little captivity I think will have humbled her and make her less suspicious about Berelain, who seems to have come to respect Perrin and may now leave him alone in spite of the Ogier oath she took in Tear. Perrin's learned a lot and even managed to get some Seanchan alliances (albeit temporary) that will certainly play a role later. Faile is bringing her own group with her, forged from their common adversity.

I'm just glad the whole Faile in captivity story is done. If it had lasted into another book I would have screamed.