Yeah, I thought he was a good choice for Lord of the Two Rivers. And his chasing of Faile was pretty good, I thought - I liked the interplay there lol. Particularly when he finally did something about her stubbornness (although admittedly he tackled the situation a little differently than I would have lol).

 

I think, post-LoC, the story line I've enjoyed the most has been Mat's. He's definitely my favourite out of our three ta'veren heroes.

He was a good choice for the Two Rivers even if he's to stubborn to know it haha. Yeah I don't know if he handled Faile really well, but I still liked that he actually stood up for himself instead of sitting there and taking all her crap. Reminded me of when Lan first met Moiraine in New Spring haha.

 

I agree I love reading about Mat, he's good comic relief in the series. I always enjoyed reading his POVs.

Yeah, reading about Mat is great in contrast with Rand and Perrin. The latter two are always so focused on doing what's right and being responsible, but not Mat - he just wants to gamble and fondle with equal delight. It's always fun seeing responsibility trying to settle itself on Mat's shoulders :D.

Haha it is, he always freaks out like "What in the world am I doing?!" It's funt to read haha.

It certainly is! :)

 

But back to the topic, Perrin's storyline, I guess, might not be as entertaining as Mat's because it's pretty much the same thing for two whole books - I must find Faile, I must find Faile! - whereas Mat's got tons to deal with in trying to escape Seanchan detection as he flees Altara; wondering why in the hell he was fated to marry Tuon and, at the same time, trying to keep all the womenfolk in his happy little camp from killing each other. It's a merry juggle!

Yeah, I thought he was a good choice for Lord of the Two Rivers. And his chasing of Faile was pretty good, I thought - I liked the interplay there lol. Particularly when he finally did something about her stubbornness (although admittedly he tackled the situation a little differently than I would have lol).

 

I think, post-LoC, the story line I've enjoyed the most has been Mat's. He's definitely my favourite out of our three ta'veren heroes.

He was a good choice for the Two Rivers even if he's to stubborn to know it haha. Yeah I don't know if he handled Faile really well, but I still liked that he actually stood up for himself instead of sitting there and taking all her crap. Reminded me of when Lan first met Moiraine in New Spring haha.

 

I agree I love reading about Mat, he's good comic relief in the series. I always enjoyed reading his POVs.

Yeah, reading about Mat is great in contrast with Rand and Perrin. The latter two are always so focused on doing what's right and being responsible, but not Mat - he just wants to gamble and fondle with equal delight. It's always fun seeing responsibility trying to settle itself on Mat's shoulders :D.

Haha it is, he always freaks out like "What in the world am I doing?!" It's funt to read haha.

Yeah, I thought he was a good choice for Lord of the Two Rivers. And his chasing of Faile was pretty good, I thought - I liked the interplay there lol. Particularly when he finally did something about her stubbornness (although admittedly he tackled the situation a little differently than I would have lol).

 

I think, post-LoC, the story line I've enjoyed the most has been Mat's. He's definitely my favourite out of our three ta'veren heroes.

He was a good choice for the Two Rivers even if he's to stubborn to know it haha. Yeah I don't know if he handled Faile really well, but I still liked that he actually stood up for himself instead of sitting there and taking all her crap. Reminded me of when Lan first met Moiraine in New Spring haha.

I agree I love reading about Mat, he's good comic relief in the series. I always enjoyed reading his POVs.

Elayne's story line makes me want to read tax law while being beaten by 100 angry Aielmen.

 

Nynaeve has two things going for her in my book: she healed Logain, and she cleansed the entire flaming Male half of the True Source.

 

But I hope dearly Sanderson down plays the braid tugging in the last three books.

I completely agree with you. I giggled when I saw what you wrote about Elayne... I'm still chuckling actually haha.

I hope he does downplay that too, I've read all the books he came out with and I think it's safe to say I loved them. I know he'll stay true to wha RJ lft but I have faith in him to hopefully eliminate most of the braid tugging haha.

Not really. I didn't care for him chasing after Faile the first time I read the series, but then the second time I read through the series I had no problem getting through it. Not sure if it's because I was prepared for it or not. He's certainly more entertaining than Elayne or Min or Nynaeve in my opinion.

How about you? Did you like Perrin's storyline?

No no no I didn't, I was just making sure I wasn't misinterpreting. Ahhhh... the effects of no sleep haha ^.^

Eh I'm used to being wrong all the time so I assumed it was me you were talking about.... trust me my husband never let's me live it down when I'm wrong when he thinks I am. The sad thing is he's always right... what a jerk haha. He can't even let me have small victories haha.

My guess is that Perrin was interpreting his own actions as something only someone from the Shadow would consider doing. I am, of course, referring specifically to his throwing a tantrum and using his axe in a way none of us ever thought he would. I am guessing that, as with Rand, there's a lot of repressed guilt in him, and he considers his actions as necessary towards attaining his goal - namely, getting Faile back. So, while he hasn't - and would never - make a deal with the Shadow (at least not before exploring other more tenable options), it was his own sense of hyperbole that led him to think that.

 

I don't like the above reasoning, because it seems a bit sketchy - even to me. But, shy of an error by RJ, I can't see any other plausible reason Perrin would consider it. He's no Darkfriend, after all.

Yes I see what you mean by his interpretation. ^.^

Let me guess... MY reasoning is sketchy... yes, well I never said I was the brightest crayon in the box. *shrugs*

I could believe Asunawa would do everything including gut somebody. That's what RJ has made clear Questioners do. But the sole example of Asunawa's torture we get is Morgase, and her attitude is that it was only supplementary to the real torture of sleeping with Valda. Moreover, it was intended to be intensely painful, without leaving any lasting physical problems, so that it would appear Morgase confessed to whatever he wanted by her own free will. That doesn't mean it wouldn't drive her insane, of course.

 

In fact, Asunawa could do exactly what Perrin does, but what Perrin does is worse, because he's one of Our Guys. That makes it worse; as I said, if RJ wrote his good guys as deeply flawed human beings existing in a nasty world - which, as I said, someone like GRRM does - I could understand that. But that's not how he writes, so it's a huge shock. Indeed, if you ever read his comments about the Perrin/Faile relationship, which is the catalyst for his behavior, it is abundantly clear that RJ never had any understanding of how much it turned off his readers. In fact, he could get pretty defensive about it, and his comments about Perrin left me feeling that he thought we're supposed to be rooting for this crap.

The difference between Morgase and this Aiel was that she obviously didn't put up a fight, like you said, so apparently Asunawa got his information a little easier that Perrin did. I plea emotional distress for my client.

Everyone is flawed, just because Perrin is a good guy doesn't mean he isn't capable of doing something like that, as has been shown over and over again, none of the characters are perfect. You're not realizing that at that point in time he was emotionally distressed and was feeling pressured. That's the point. Like I said before I think it's unfair to compare him to someone like Asunawa.

Meanwhile, you laugh about the spanking, but for me, that's physical abuse, full-stop. He is massively stronger than her. I don't think it matters at all what "culture" she comes from. That's like saying I should respect female circumcision, because, actually, that practice really is a major aspect of some real life cultures.

Physical abuse... really, like some of her past actions weren't abusive even slightly? So it's ok for a woman to constantly punch a man because she's a woman? I don't think so. She had it coming.

What bothers me is that RJ never ever suggests that what he does is wrong in the slightest. Instead, he makes it pretty clear that the girl's own mother gets hot and bothered when her father demonstrates his own superior physical strength.

People are like that... people have very strange fetishes, get over it. It could be something worse than that.

So you're telling me, in effect, it's completely understandable that Perrin tortures and even thinks that he might swear to the Shadow to get Faile back, but that he would obey the parameters of the "fight"? That's completely illogical, and frankly, ridiculous.

 

While I believe RJ's narrative case for making Perrin psychotic was extraordinarily weak, the fact remains that once Faile was kidnapped, he was willing to do anything, in his own words up to and including joining the Shadow.

And he's not willing to use the best weapon at his disposal, his best friend since childhood? I have to call serious BS on this.

He wouldn't literally go to the Shadow. My god he's not that stupid. Perrin did what he thought was best at that moment in time. Like I said before, he's flawed like everyone else in the series and I don't see how what he does is any worse than what everyone else has done. Like I stated earlier, he was emotionally distressed and wasn't thinking clearly, give the guy a break.

The fact is that RJ drew out this plotline for four books. He was not "confused" about where to put Perrin, he did this because he wanted to. Same with the idiotic Elayne story line. He removed Mat entirely from Book 8, and I could understand that because he did that for Perrin in Book 5.

 

But then in KOD, and even more so in COT, he barely gave any chapters to Rand, the savior of the bloody world, so that we could read chapters from Faile's perspective about being kidnapped. And at the same time, we're told that the Last Battle is coming.

 

That makes it *more* important that we have chapters from either Rand or his group, not less. TDR, which barely featured Rand at all, before he was even really acknowledged as the Dragon Reborn, still had more pages devoted to him than COT. And it wasn't too much different from the face time he was given in KOD.

He is the author, there's not much that can be done about what he's written already. I personally didn't mind because Perrin is my favorite character. I didn't like Elayne's storyline... I'll agree with you on one thing I guess.

He didn't focus on Rand because he either didn't want to or felt that he was farther ahead in the storyline. TDR, that was intentional, we were supossed to be wondering what was going on with him and wonder if he was crazy already or not.

We all interpret things differently, just because I interpretted some things differently does not mean that I'm absolutely wrong and of course I'm probably not right... I'm not the author. I didn't write about these characters and I didn't get to know them the way RJ did. We may never know why he did the things he did with the series and with some of the characters. I see where you're coming from, but I just don't agree with you, and there's nothing wrong with us disagreeing... the beauty of being able to have an opinion ^.^

Asunawa is not a hero by Word of God.

 

I mean, I started feeling deeply uncomfortable with their relationship ever since reading about the spanking, because that's overwhelmingly not cool. It's one thing to talk about the fact that, until two years ago, women had a monopoly on the Power, and so could make the strongest man look like a tiny girl in a shed, but Faile's no Aes Sedai. And Perrin was a freaking *blacksmith*! He's huge, and he's always been written as such.

 

But this guy is supposed to be the gentlest of Our Guys. Remember, at the beginning of ACOS he was ready to fight Rand over his treatment of the captured Aes Sedai. Then, suddenly, he's dismembering prisoners of war because he's angry over his wife being taken. It's not relevant that he's disgusted with himself. I mean, what he's just done is the "to the Pain" bit from Princess Bride. In addition to committing a war crime, he's done something that, unlike Asunawa's ministrations, *cannot* be repaired. Ever.

 

This could be forgiven if RJ were writing something like ASOIAF. But he's not. We've been told again and again and again how Rand's shift towards a "gray" hero is an unmitigated disaster. Indeed, Rand's "hardness" can't even be justified by raison d'etat, because it makes him a *worse* ruler. He's become extraordinarily arrogant and almost incapable of delegation; every time one of his subordinates makes a decision these days, he jumps down their throats. Witness, for example, his reaction to Darlin's nomination for the throne of Tear. Everyone, including Min, thinks he's an absolute jackhole about it. Or look at his reaction to Logain's use of his sigil on his uniform: Logain's words are that no one can take away what he is. The old Rand would have deeply sympathized with this sentiment, but the new Rand is almost jealous.

 

Perrin's not super-arrogant, he's become psychotic instead. I could understand this move if it were justified based on RJ's characterization of him throughout the series, but it's not. It's justified only tenuously on the basis of a relationship that is deeply uncomfortable for a hell of a lot of readers, and that I think is incredibly unhealthy.

 

For that reason, the fact that he tortures a guy is absolutely *wrong* in a way Asunawa's is not, because Asunawa has always been written as a crazy evil torturer guy.

 

Maybe if RJ had written Perrin the way GRRM's written Tyrion - namely, a fundamentally good guy who's been the butt monkey for Westeros his entire life, but who's never been anything like a saint - but he has not.

You seriously think Asunawa wouldn't cut someones hand off? That's just silly, I think he would in a heartbeat. Just because he's been portrayed as some crazy dude doesn't justify his actions either. I think it's extremely unfair to compare Perrin to someone like Asunawa who really doesn't care who he hurts so long as he gets a confession he's all good. Perrin was feelign pressured at that moment in time, he had everyone looking at him like he should do it and that's what drove him to make the decision he did. Peer pressure... except without the drugs haha.

What would you do if some girl kept punching you? I personally thought that scene was hilarious and wish he would have actually had the scene in the book. I think he was more than justified. What do you think about Mat spanking Joline? So what if Faile isn't Aes Sedai, this is her culture and it's the way she was taught (scary that). 

I don't think him reacting to her being taken away is uncharacteristic at all considering what he's been through. He just lost his entire family. Then he turns around and not long after that Faile is taken away. He has no one else so how exactly is he supossed to act?

But, as others have said, if this were really the case, Perrin - in Stonewall's words - be moving swiftly, striking vigorously and securing all the fruits of victory. Or in this case, his lady.

 

But he doesn't. He dithers, fails to make use of his status as a powerful lord until the battle at Malden, fails to enlist Rand's support - considering how Rand feels about harming women and about his two buddies, I'm pretty sure Rand would have given him half the Black Tower and the sworn Aes Sedai to get Faile back - or the support of Bashere and Bashere's BFF Bael, fails to even use his own super-power well. Instead, he makes LTT look like a paragon of rationality, and then he tortures people for information that his Asha'man and Aiel and wolves could get without *any* trouble, based on how RJ has written their abilities.

 

I agree, however, that I'd rather read Perrin's SL than Elayne's. In fact I'd rather read tax law than Elayne's thoughts.

He wasn't supossed to contact Rand at all until he got back with Masema, that was the whole point in the "fight" they had. Do I think Rand would have been mad if he? No, I think you're right, Rand would have tried to find a way to help him. But at the same time if they had just left and then came back after talking to Rand it might have been harder to find her. They had a problems enough trying to track her without completely leacving the area.

I think (someone else said this too but I can't remember for the life of me who) that RJ just wasn't sure what else to do with Perrin so this is what he came up with. However, the battle at Malden seriously helped in more ways than one and I think that going through this was worth it just to see that battle and see how much it really helped everyone out in the long run. (Just me personally, I'm sure everyone disagrees with me haha.)

Have you been reading the same series as me? In TSR he spanked her; in LOC he found out that the "culture" she comes from, or at least the way her parents do things, applauds Deira's feeling that it was great to find out that she was weaker than Davram because during one of their arguments he physically forced her to be submissive; in ACOS he finally cracked and went berserk on her because of her insanely jealous and petty reaction to him trying to figure out what the hell happened to Berelain, which she *knew* he was doing as the DR's right hand man and friend; and in COT, he went, in my eyes, beyond the pale. The man had Asha'man capable of traveling, he could have returned to Cairhien or Camelyn at any time to get more Aiel, which the series has consistently depicted as ubermenschen at least for scouting and combat, he could have used his wolves to scout, and instead, he tortured prisoners of war at least as cruelly as Asunawa would. With the combination of physical pain and mental anguish he inflicted, he probably went beyond anyone not capable of torturing with the Power, and even then, he's one of the three main GOOD GUYS. Oh, and he's absolutely unconcerned that his wife was seriously considering sleeping with her Brotherless friend.

Uhh, in all fairness what Perrin did barely scratches the surace when it comes to torture... compared to people like Asunawa, he was being nice. It's hardly fair to compare one instance like that to something a Whitecloak would do and has done for quiet some time. We have not seen him torture anyone else except on this one occasion. He felt so bad about what he did that he decided to give up his ax because he felt disgusted with himself. Asunawa wouldn't have cared he would have thought he was serving a greater good, not felt regret.

Women get jealous, men get jealous, it's natural. Maybe Faile goes a little to far sometimes, but there was another reason why she got so mad when he asked about Berelain in Cairhien. It was because while he was gone trying to rescue Rand Berelain was spreading rumors around saying that she and Perrin were meeting secretly outside of the city. Granted he didn't know that but she still felt bad about what was being said about her husband.

As far as he's concrened about the Brotherless.. whatever keeps her safe is what he would want her to do. I think it's kind of silly  because you shouldn't cheat no matter the situation, but Perrin at least would have understood. Would have done that? Hell no, but that doesn't mean other people wouldn't and that doesn't mean their spouse wouldn't understand. To me that shows the he's willing to look past her flaws, which he has repeatedly, and see who she really is. That is love, that's one of the major things about it is being able to get past some of their flaws because we all are flawed and you have to learn to get past that.

i love Tuon's character, whenever I re-read the chapters with her and Mat I can't stop laughing. When I first read through the series I couldn't stand reading Perring after LOC but then I did a re-read and I didn't have a problem with him... maybe because I read it already *shrugs* I really don't know why.

However, sheikh chilli's hatred of Rand al`Thor, to me, really does cross way over into the realms of Bizzarro land.

 

Don't you remember bubby and his Egwene passion? Starts here http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,9970.msg1025208.html#msg1025208  ;D

 

 

 

.......Wow, I'm not going to lie and say Egwene is my favorite character, but... wow.

Ok, so here's the quote I found on page 666 paperback:

'A hundred times he hurled Perrin across the Grand Hall of the Sun, and a hundred times he was overwhelmed by blazing fear and rage. A hundred times he killed Perrin in his dreams and woke to his own screams. Why had the man chosen the Aes Sedai prisoners to use for their argument?'

He implies that he almost lost control during their 'fight'. Why else would he be having nightmares over it?

Yes.  It was more to cover Perrin's tracks, so nobody would be paying much attention to where he went.  Nobody would want to be seen near the man that the Dragon Reborn had banished.

 

Perrin just had the misfortune of starting their 'argument' over the captive Aes Sedai, a sore point with Rand anyway.  Rand got a bit more realistic than intended.

 

That is true. However Rand did not almost kill Perrin. Although Perrin got a bit more realism from Rand then they had intended, Perrin was in no real danger of being killed, or even almost killed by Rand.

Oh, and sheik chilli's hatred of Rand al`Thor is really one of the most bizarre things that I have ever seen on dragonmount.com

Its understandable for a WOT fan to say that he does not like Rand any more, and that he does not like Rand's personality anymore. However, sheikh chilli's hatred of Rand al`Thor, to me, really does cross way over into the realms of Bizzarro land.

Rand did say he almost killed him, I'll try to find the quote for you so I don't make a total ass of myself haha.

I wonder if he's some kind of sleeper agent...Sent to sow dissention and dislike...It is quite hard to believe that he's a fan of the books at all. Beyond the base elements of it. The One Power, the battles etc.

No silly that's me haha just kidding.

Why is anyone even replying to this.... The argument has long since become redundant. 

 

Your right. He is too narrow-minded. Even with all the reasons we gave him.

 

Yes yes, I agree. I thought I was bad for bashing some characters but I see that I have been outdone and cast out of the Most Negative Person post... I was really good at it too : (

take heart Wavemistress, he has gained the tops for men, you can still keep the woman's title   ;)

 

I was talking about the guy who submitted this topic in the first place.

I know you were ^.^

jsut getting to the chapter where cadsuane is introduced....i wanna see what you guys are talkin about....its been so long since i've read this series...prolly before winters heart came out...alot of it i've forgotten, i'm remembering why i love the series though :D

 

so far i'm flying though aCoS though....its been a much faster read than LoC so far

Did you not like LoC? Just curious ^.^

He is kind of coo coo for cocoa puffs huh? I'm not going argue against any of your points because most of them are true, I will just repeat one more time that he is a product of everything he's been through. He'll redeem himself when the last battle is done. I can't help but feel sorry for him  :'( It will be like in Harry Potter how... haha I won't get started on Harry Potter, I'll just annoy everyone more than I already have.

Yay! I have a place somewhere *sniff* haha

Why is anyone even replying to this.... The argument has long since become redundant. 

 

Your right. He is too narrow-minded. Even with all the reasons we gave him.

Yes yes, I agree. I thought I was bad for bashing some characters but I see that I have been outdone and cast out of the Most Negative Person post... I was really good at it too : (

I kind of liked ACoS... Mat is one of my favorite characters, so he's the main reason why I enjoyed it so much. Rand is... just Rand. I've admitted several times that later on in the series he gets on my nerves. I do agree that Rand acted like himself when he met Cadsuane. As for him not doing much, he did but he didn't. Taking out a Forsaken is huge, but other than that I can't recall him doing much. And to think I just read it not that long ago... apparently my memory has been affected my my kids and their 'sleep all day party all night' philosophy.

I agree about Morgase, I never really did like her character that much. We do learn some insightful things from her POV but she reminds me to much of Elayne O.O She gives me a headache sometimes.

I can see how reading about Rand can be a bit... irritating, but it's like everyone has pretty much said, he's a product of the things that have happened to him and to people around him. I don't know whether to feel sympathy or slap him sometimes(if I could ha), but sympathy normally wins.

i was waiting for this...i dislike egwene

egwene uses ppl all the time and is an idoit to boot

atm her only option is to change ppl by talking and example shes a prisoner

before that she had an army sieging the white tower and was using and manipulating her own ppl

shes a post AoL aes sedai a manipulator of all not a servant of all

I totally agree with you; while Egwene has progressed quiet a bit since the beginning of the series, in some ways she really needs to be put in her place still. But at the same time everyone justifies Rand for using and manipulating people solely based on who he is. How is Egwene really any different? She is the Amyrlin now after all. So while I don't always agree with the actions she takes, change that, more like almost everything she does, I still see where she has to take these actions to make sure she isn't over run by the other Aes Sedai.