You're forgetting there's another environmental condition working on their physique: The Aiel themselves. They fight constantly. Anyone who developed into being small and compact would die in battle. You know how evolution works, I take it? Take it to the logical conclusion.

 

Sorry, but that's complete rubbish. Being bigger does not automatically mean better in a battle. For example the Romans, who were very short people, kicked the asses of Celts, who were generally much bigger than they were. Greeks prized short and stocky men in their phalanxes because a low center of gravity is better in a pushing match, I know the Aiel dont fight in phalanxes, but still, the claim that those who were shorter and more compact would have a significant disadvantage when fighting is ludicrous.

 

In the waste, tall people would have ended up skinny and emaciated as they wouldn't have found enough sustenance to put muscle across their larger frames. You want your calorie requirements to be a low as possible when your food intake is going to be erratic. You just wont find enough food to fuel a big body.

I think in general he might have meant smaller. There is no doubt that larger animals have an advantage against smaller animals and we are talking about fighting; smaller people would be at a significant disadvantage, less mass and shorter reaches are two very significant disadvantages to start off with. Sure there could be some relevant example of where a smaller guy beat a bigger guy because of this one exception, but this is an entire population.

 

Also does it say anywhere that food is scarce in the Waste? Yeah, it's called the Waste, so you can imagine. But it is not like they say "May you always find something to eat." Just wondering.

Anywhere water is scarce, food is scarce. Water is life, no water, no life. We eat other living things to survive, so there is only as much food as there is water to support these other things to be eaten.

You're forgetting there's another environmental condition working on their physique: The Aiel themselves. They fight constantly. Anyone who developed into being small and compact would die in battle. You know how evolution works, I take it? Take it to the logical conclusion.

Sorry, but that's complete rubbish. Being bigger does not automatically mean better in a battle. For example the Romans, who were very short people, kicked the asses of Celts, who were generally much bigger than they were. Greeks prized short and stocky men in their phalanxes because a low center of gravity is better in a pushing match, I know the Aiel dont fight in phalanxes, but still, the claim that those who were shorter and more compact would have a significant disadvantage when fighting is ludicrous.

In the waste, tall people would have ended up skinny and emaciated as they wouldn't have found enough sustenance to put muscle across their larger frames. You want your calorie requirements to be a low as possible when your food intake is going to be erratic. You just wont find enough food to fuel a big body.

 

Anyway, we've still had no reason why the Aiel should be given a "magical" explanation, while other things get a pass. No real difference.

 

It really shouldn't be that difficult to see the point here even if you don't agree with it. Individuals may be exceptional, but a race of people, all of whom are exceptional, is not the human species that I am familiar with.

 

Now I wouldn't mind this as much, if it were not for the fact that the human species as I am familiar with it does exist in the books, they're called non-Aiel.

 

Maybe it's because of the harsh conditions that the Aiel have had to deal with over the three thousand years since the breaking. Unlike wetlanders (and us in our modern day western societies), Aiel die if they are not strong enough to cope with the Extreme conditions of the waste. While not concrete evidence, this is a pretty strong arguement as to why the Aiel are such a rugged people; because they have to be otherwise they would not have survived for as long as they have.

As I said before, harsh environments do not produce physically perfect specimens. People don't grow to huge sizes where there is extremely little food or water. If anything they become more compact, hardier, and tougher, they don't turn into Greek Gods. So the evolution argument doesnt work, 3000 years of living in a wasteland doesnt produce a race of 6'6'', stacked superhumans. Populations begin to get that way when they live among plenty, when good nutrition and an adequate calorie intake are guaranteed, not something that has to be scrapped over every day. Look at us now, people are beginning to grow very tall because food is not an issue so the body can grow as much as it likes.

The Mongols used cavalry extensively, comparisons with them are inappropriate.

 

Thats very narrow minded said. Obviously nothing written in this thread has made any impact yet on what kind of soldier the Aiel are, im so tired of this thread...

Then don't answer.

But since you did: Why is pointing out that the Mongols are completely different from the Aiel in the way they fight narrow minded? The Mongols had all the things I'm saying the Aiel don't have. Armour, heavy cavalry, even horse archers. There is no comparison.

 

Anyway, we've still had no reason why the Aiel should be given a "magical" explanation, while other things get a pass. No real difference.

It really shouldn't be that difficult to see the point here even if you don't agree with it. Individuals may be exceptional, but a race of people, all of whom are exceptional, is not the human species that I am familiar with.

Now I wouldn't mind this as much, if it were not for the fact that the human species as I am familiar with it does exist in the books, they're called non-Aiel.

I did not make it thru all of the post's but I think Jordan meant for the aiel to be disliked by most. A society vastly different and mysterious. Many mention guerrilla tactics, but I think that they were based on the Zulu during the modern age and the Mongols of a past era. We do not actually see much of the tactics of the aiel just impressions. Lan does explain tactics to Rand although Jordan leaves most of it vague to the reader, as he has fought the aiel and is respected by them, but most other scenarios describe simple tactics by the wetlanders and how they do not understand how they are over run. The aiel move in for the attack and then move on, even the aiel that follow the false dragon move quickly compared to the wetlanders (although other aiel may see them as staying put too long) most of the time we see Rand telling the chiefs were to attack he is not deciding tactics he is mandating the goal. The mongols moved in quickly from many directions and in most cases the invaded nations thought there were many times more as the mongols were attacking the next area while people were just getting news of the first attack. Hitler studied Subodei the mongol general and based his blitzkrieg attack on this basis. If he had not been such a micromanaging leader, and so evil that he could not be ignored,  his generals were very capable of winning.

 

Cities breed lazy people even today. We go one place for our food, and to another to have machinery repaired. In these societies a master craftsman may have created the weapons but you still have to be able to do almost everything for yourself.

 

And lastly attitude of a people is the most important. The aiel came from a peaceful society were people could take the greatest hardships to show their pride in belief of were they belonged in the world. The self discipline is key here, we see this in the modern world with the japanese. They were able to be effective and feared in world war 2 because of their belief emperor and nation before self, they kept this philosophy after the war, by realizing they could produce better and cheaper items, by continually trying to improve. Self Discipline! Self Discipline! Self Discipline!

The Mongols used cavalry extensively, comparisons with them are inappropriate.

Braus I agree with you that the nutritional value of many of our foods has decreased, but these aren't the foods that people serious about their fitness eat. I know something about this because I keep in very good shape myself. You always eat foods as close to their natural form as possible, stay away from all the processed crap that gets produced. So professional athletes today aren't eating the food like substances that pass for food a lot of the time these days, they're eating good food and a lot of it.

As for the gai'shain, you need to remember that the gai'shain are the warriors. They've just been captured. So in order to support a population of warriors like the Aiel have, about 90% of them would have to be captured gai'shain at any one time to support the others. That means they wouldn't get in nearly as much training as everyone is assuming. Also, a lot of the gai'shain spend their time doing things other than producing. They seem to spend far too much time acting as body servants to form the economic backbone of a society and support a group of incredibly wasteful full-time warriors.

Also, though the waste may be huge, there is simply no way you could gather 250,000 people together in a place where the biggest concentrations of water is a shallow pool, especially when it's so hot. Your army would dehydrate and drop to about 5-10,000 in a matter of days as all the rest died of thirst.

I disagree with Militiades's original arguement and generally am against his opinion on the Aiel. However, his point about the Aiel's fitness/muscularity is a very valid one.

 

But then again, this kind of inconsistency is present through the whole series, not just with the Aiel. Perrin for example is described as having thick slabs of muscle on his chest..You won't work your chest swinging a hammer on a forge. Also, he seems to go almost the whole series eating very little, you'd lose the muscle you had without consuming a good amount of protein/calories each day. This is also a valid point against the muscularity of the Aielmen. They seem to scrounge what they can and never lose muscle (that we hear/know of)despite the huge distances that they run.

 

Now I'm not criticising Jordan at all here, this is a fantasy book. It would suck a lot if everything was as mundane as it is in our world. How lame would it be if Gaul took 5 from his battle against the WCs to down a protein shake and some chicken? This is a fantasy work, and the Aiel are slightly unbelievable as people in our world, as are the trollocs, fades, warders etc.

 

Stop judging people in the book by the standards of our world and enjoy it.

Exactly, in order to maintain a level of fitness where you can run so far you need to do run every day. Plus they need to train at weapons and martial arts to keep up their mad ninja skills. The calorie requirments for such a lifestyle would be enormous. Royal Marines for example are fed over 4000 calories a day, and at some stages training becomes so intense that they still lose weight. Getting that much nourishment from such the Waste would be simply impossible.

Your point about Gaul going for a protein shake cracked me up by the way.

Thing is, if all the humans were pulling crazy stunts like the Aiel it would be easier to handle, it's just that everyone else (who cant channel) just seems like basic humans, while the Aiel are something more.

 

World class athletes... well dunno this is extremly hard to compare really. This whole thread has been filled with our world vs the wheel of time world, but one thing you at least should have to do if you compare something, is comparing it with how it was in the middle ages in our time. You cant compare how it is today. If Humans are supposed to be Humans unless said differently, you cant compare to Humans in the 2000th century. Besides who is to say that we havent grown soft? what if there was better marathon runners, even if they didnt compete, say 1000 years ago? Todays world is very very comfortable. And well erm, thats not only the west world. Ofc there is people still starving to death sadly, but there is abig difference again. I doubt a beggar in a city is that good at running and generally since say thousand years ago, until today - the world have really gotten more comfortable for everyone, or at least the old way of living of the lands is pretty much extinguished, be you poor or rich.

If anything that would work for my case and against yours. Humans have been growing larger recently because of the superabundance of food that we now have available. We are wealthy enough that people can afford to dedicate their lives to pursuits that do not produce anything useful, such as being athletes. I haven't brought this up so far because I think it would be incredibly anal to gripe about logistics but there is absolutely no way that nomads living in a desert could afford to train and fight their whole lives, absolutely no way. The Spartans just about managed this by enslaving basically the entire population of southern Greece so that they could devote themselves to war and have the helots produce all their food. Even with this their population dwindled, and the Spartan homoioi were overwhelmingly outnumbered by their helot slaves leading to frequent rebellions.

Besides which, harsh environments like the waste produce tough, hardy people. That is not the same as physically perfect specimens. Growing big and strong is not a result of hardship but of plenty.

But as I aid I dont really mind any of this, I can suspend my disbelief and not get too annoyed about the logistical impossibility of a 250,000 strong army coming out of a barren wasteland. It's just every time the Aiel show up and there's a fight I'm like;  ''oh god'' *roll eyes* ''here we go again, time to hear how the Aiel own all and how much better in every conceivable way they are than everyone else''

Aiel isnt just one type of soldier. As said many times, they got a big arsenal and they are mobility themselves.

 

Im not sure what im supposed to picture in my mind, Aiel caught by suprise by a stealthy heavy cavalery charge in the middle of a open field, preferably a valley with heavy cavelry racing down upon them?

They are just one type of soldier, that is a simple fact. Yes their infantry double as archers but that doesnt change the fact that they're all equipped in the same fashion.

You're supposed to picture a pitched battle, you know, by far the most common kind. Where the enemy cavalry does get to charge and that's why you prepare for this eventuality by having pikemen or the like or even just using your own cavalry.

Now your an muscle expert suddenly?

 

really go look at lets say a swimmer, i bet he can beat you on running anytime aswell. Or say a boxer, or some other martial arts.

 

Todays stereotype for a marathon runner is a skinny kenyan. What makes them run fast? the altitude they live on? genetics. You dont need to be small as a stick to be able to run long, and once again its not about the extremes. Who cares if Aiel can run faster than a horse, i certainly dont, the fact that is presented in the books is that they can can run long and keep a rather high pace. Say, do you remember when Perrin leaves from Tear to go to the ways and the two rivers? How he, Faile and Loial gallops ahead and the Aiel gets behind. Thats the kind of running im talking about, and they are also slowly catching up because if Faile/Perrin and Loial would keep galloping like that with their horses they would die, they will sooner or later pretty much be forced to step off and lead the animals or let them rest. Fast and steady.

Everything you say is true, however those boxers and swimmers are people who've reached the happy medium, a good all round fitness level. But they will never be as good as someone who focuses entirely on one area. So you cant reach the pinnacle of fitness of all areas.

The Aiel however, are bigger, stronger, faster, tougher and have better endurance than anyone else. They're all as tall as Rand, as stacked as Perrin, can run at the level of world class athletes, and do all this on the sustenance they receive from a barren desert.

And anyway, I've never said a wetlander army could move faster than an Aiel one. But once the two forces come close enough to fight the Aiel's speed will be totally outclassed by the horse's because the distances will favour the sprint of the horse over the endurance of the Aiel. So the mobility of the Aiel will not protect them from being mowed down if and when the cavalry closes. This is why i said that Aiel mobility doesnt mean shit within the context of a battle, as in once the forces have closed, the distances are too small for your endurance to matter.

Aside from that, even skirmishing infantry can set up a pike square. It is extremely hard to coax a horse into attacking a pike formation, mainly because they know it's not very smart to impale oneself on sharp sticks.

Erm, no they cant. Probably because skirmishing infantry don't carry pikes. Pikes being the principle ingredient in a pike square. As others have pointed out, the Aiel spears are about as long as swords, so they've forgone the advantage that true spears confer against mounted opponents. And why wouldn't they? It's not like they ever have to face cavalry in the waste.

Ever heard the word 'discipline'?

 

You don't seem to have even the smallest grasp of tactics. You just continue to say, "Foot can't stand up to horse!"

Foot equipped as the Aiel are cant stand up to horse, and never have. That is precisely why things like pikes squares were developed, to counter the enormous advantage that cavalry has against infantry who aren't equipped and formed up properly to defeat them.

Basically the Aiel army consists entirely of the type of soldier that cavalry love to fight; loose order skirmishers. Because they cant escape and they cant hold their ground, it's just a breeze to ride over them.

I don't have a problem with either one of these points I've made, and as I've stated several times I don't have a problem with the Aiel. All I'm saying is that Militiades' points aren't totally without merit. To take in that the majority of those points fit an entire people of "regular" humans, you have to suspend reality for a bit, and sit back and say: "Well, it is a fantasy book.".

 

Without putting words into Militiades' mouth - that's at least how I understood his initial post.

 

As to the waste, Braus, I've always envisioned it as the Arizona deserts. Hot during the day, cold during the night, little water, you have prey, and some bushes and whatnot.

 

That's exactly what I'm saying, they're a race of people where the average member is exceptional in every way. Like you pointed out, if you want to be able to run ridiculous distances really fast, you have to give up in other areas. You can't carry heavy, calorie consuming muscles, that is if you're a regular human.

You just don't get races of 6'6'' muscle bound Herakles' who are also world class cross country runners. You especially don't get humans growing that big in a place like the waste, where it is advantageous to be more compact so your fuel requirement is less and it's easier to survive on the little food there is.

And you're assuming the cavalry would travel at the speed of the best horses, while in actual fact they would have to pace themsleves with the slowest horses in the formation while also avoiding any difficult terrain and their dead comrades, while the aiel would be able to move allmost unhindered. Not to mention that the horses would not be able to maintain a full charge for long, losing momentum very fast while it's allready been astablished that the aiel would win in endurance.

 

You only get part of the flankS if you assume relative numerical equality, but that would most likely not be the case. And it isn't very likely the rest of the cavalry would suicide charge the enemies in front while half of their numbers (conservatively) would either be dead or in the process of dying. Once the cavalry starts to lose it's momentum, it's power rapidly diminishes and won't only not be a good counter but would become easy pickings. And that's assuming the cavalry doesn't get tied down before it even gets to charge.

 

As for the formation, they wouldn't stay in the formation long enough to lose their advantages and it wouldn't be the whole aiel army just part of it. And which do you think is in more danger from shooting, the aiel at long to out of range, or the unbarded cavvies at short range?

 

Stopping a cavalry charge isn't easy by any means, I'm not suggesting that, but neither is the charge even close to as devastating or easy to pull off as you seem to assume. Using real life as an example is not a very good comparison, seeing that there really isn't a very good equivalent to the aiel, and most of the time when the glorious light skirmish slaughter by cav's happened, it was against peasants, fleeing or throwaway units, archers or numerically equal to less forces that most of the time had no real grasp of strategy, morale, skill or ability to work as a unit. It's one thing to ride down peasant, but don't try to equalize the situation with what would happen with aiel.

Not really, the best horses can reach 45-50 miles per hour, and it seems clear that most wetland nations know a fair bit about horse breeding so its not unreasonable to assume they'd have at least good quality horses if not superb.

Also, it's not a matter of numerical advantage with the flank, it's that there just wont be that much frontage to attack, because you have to make sure you aren't in front of them and they'll be moving very fast. Sort of like when shooting at a target moving perpendicular to you. If you try to lap round the back they'll speed ahead of you and if you try to gain more frontage by attacking the front you'll have to take some of the charge. If you stop to shoot you aren't running and so the charge will crash home. And the cavalry in the middle would keep going, it would be unlikely they would even notice that their comrades on the wings were becoming bogged down until after the melee began.

And the reason there are no real life examples to choose from is because we only have human beings to work with here out in the real world. We don't have demi-gods which is why nobody compares to the Aiel.

About ths speed difference between aiel and horsies. They don't have to run faster than the fastest horse in optimum conditions. All they have to do is slink back ahead of them (remember they don't start from melee contact with the horses) long anough for the cavalry to get flanked and bogged down. Remember a properly formed up cavalry formation isn't exactly fast in changing directions at speed, so flanking would not be hard. And the cavvies aren't exactly going to make optimum speed when their horses are being shot down from under them, especially if they try to retain some cohesion in their charging formation without which they're pretty much toast against numerically superior, more agile and both bow and throwing weapon wielding expert soldiers.

 

None of this even takes into consideration that even though the aiel prefer not to fight in formation, that they can easily form one to soak up the damage from the charge if necessary. And remember these aren't exactly the barded, lance wielding knights in shining armor type cavalry, so they could be fairly reliably stopped without the use of pikes with propably reasonable death ratio on collision, especially considering the cavalry is heavily outmanned, and most likely with heavy casualties from shooting and throwing spears to boot. Now I'm not saying there wouldn't be losses, but it's not quite as one sided as you assume. And I still think they won't even be able to properly connect a charge in the first place if the aiel do their job properly.

 

And about the stonedog charge thing, the point most likely is that there would be a reaction time, time to relay orders, after which the cavalry would need to form up for the charge and after that they need to gain proper momentum, which doesn't happen in an instant. By this time the aiel should have long since connected, so it isn't "just counter charge them".

That just might be possible, if we accept the superhuman qualities of speed I gave the Aiel when I compared them to horses. Even so, if you flank the cavalry only the wings will get bogged down, the center will carry on, it is hard to stop a cavalry charge once its begun even if you want to. So you'll basically just have to sacrifice those men you use to bait them in, they'll never be able to turn and fight effectively and will be wiped out. Assuming the tactic of ''charge the biggest lot of guys they've got'' from the cavalry that's going to be a lot of men you'll lose. But anyway as I said, that is IF we accept that each Aiel can run as fast as the world record holder, carrying equipment, and over a longer distance. Otherwise a cavalry charge will be on top of them before they can do much.

Also, if you tried to put Aiel in a formation they'd lose most of the advantages they have, and with such a lightly armed soldier, the casualties you'd have to sustain in absorbing a cavalry charge would be simply unacceptable, not to mention what enemy shooting would do to you.

I think people are also acting like it's easy to simply eliminate your enemy's cavalry or avoid them. It is actually extremely difficult to stop part of your enemy's from engaging. It isn't something you can consistently do, just saying the Aiel are good at scouting and camouflage doesnt mean they can avoid a charge from heavy cavalry every battle. Again, to accept that they do manage this is to assume they are far better than any group of people who has ever existed and can manage extremely difficult feats as a matter of course. That is to say that they are more than human.

 

I didn't mean Gaul was not an exceptional fighter, I meant not for an Aiel. Never is he hailed as being one of the Aiel's great heroes, it seems he's just the run of the mill Aiel (which means he's roughly as good as the 5 or 10 best fighters in the entire wetlands). My point was that all the Aiel seem able to do things like that, it just isnt a big deal.

 

 

Quite the opposite.  We are told that Gaul is basically next in line to be sent to Rhuidian to become Clan Chief.  I would say this puts him pretty high up on the list of exceptional fighters. 

 

It isn't just the biggest baddest Aielman who goes to Rhuidean, if it was the Aiel wouldn't be as well led as they are. Also, it isn't ever really intimated that the Chiefs are particularly more individually skilled than are other Aiel.

The fact is, Aiel would not be decimated by a heavy cavalry charge, because, they would never put themselves in a position where a heavy cavalry would have the opportunity to charge.  The Aiel are very difficult to surprise.  If they were engaging an enemy who were using heavy cavalry, they would make sure that the charge were not an option before they engaged.

Really? What's all this nonsense Lan is spouting then about a charge from Aiel Redshields or Stone Dogs being impossible to stop? Seems pretty easy to stop to me. Just counter charge with some heavy cavalry, and mow them down. If they're charging you surely you can charge them.

Everyone is making out that the Aiel slink around and use expert tactics and guile to counter the wetlander's advantages. But we don't see this in the books, they just walk around kicking a whole lot of ass. It has nothing to do with them avoiding bad situations and everything to do with them being portrayed as so unbelievably badass that they own everyone else unless their enemies have an 'I win' factor present (Asha'man, Mat's luck/battle knowledge etc).

Correction really... since you assume they are superhumnanherogods.

 

 

If Gaul isnt a exceptional fighter, name me one. You got anything to prove that he isnt a good fighter. Everything ive seen from him in the books this far have been very good, he seems very reliable and would proberly fit right in amongst the clan chiefs like one wise ones seems to want him to later.

Why would Gaul run away? Hes not stupid, he knew what was coming. There is a big difference between running away because of fear, or running away because its smarter. Maybe if he had known that the whitecloaks was incoming, he would had run away if he had a chance, but why would he run away when they were almost upon him? he would had just died, compared to staying and fighting.

WOT is in one aspect not like all the other books. You got so many POV and still its not only the "heroes" who are able to fight or are the best etc.

 

About running Aiel and horse, at least ive never talked about Aiel running faster than horses. What ive talked about at least, is that Aiel isnt a stationary Infantery, they are on the move all the time. And no they dont need to run 22 miles per hour or however much that translated into km/h. I doubt sending in heavy cavalry on Aiel will be enough to win, they wont just stand and let themselves be cut down. Especially not in tight formations as far as my memory serves from the books.

Besides tell me where all these hundreds of thousands of heavy cavalry is in the books, sure the Shienar seems to be using cavalry and a few other nations like Ghealdan etc, but its abit far stretch to base your whole arguement on why Aiel are overpowered, on the fact that they dont use any horse compared to the wetlanders.

I didn't mean Gaul was not an exceptional fighter, I meant not for an Aiel. Never is he hailed as being one of the Aiel's great heroes, it seems he's just the run of the mill Aiel (which means he's roughly as good as the 5 or 10 best fighters in the entire wetlands). My point was that all the Aiel seem able to do things like that, it just isnt a big deal.

Also, if you read the section again Gaul stands still to veil himself like he has all the time in the world. And we're always told about how the Aiel can outrun anybody. Gaul could easily have fled from 10 whitecloaks wearing mail armour and carrying weapons. He chose not to because he knew he could own them no problem. No matter how good you are, taking on 10 heavily armed and armoured professional soldiers with your bare hands is a losing proposition. Yes it could be done, in theory, it is not impossible, but from the description we get Gaul was always going to win, it wasn't even difficult.

Also, why do you ''doubt'' that sending in heavy cavalry against Aiel will not be enough to win? What do you base that on? When skirmishing troops like Aiel get charged by cavalry they get butchered, that's what happens. They are cavalry's preferred target precisely because they fight in loose order and can be ridden over with very little difficulty. You can't get away, if you try to run the cavalry will just catch up and cut you down to a man, it's hold your ground or die. As you pointed out the Aiel don't fight in formation which is the only way of resisting a cavalry charge for infantry. So if you turn and fight you die and if you run you die. The only way to avoid death is to avoid the cavalry. If they're charging you, kiss your ass goodbye.

Secondly, I have a great deal of trouble seeing how the Aiel could manage to successfully and consistently be able to stand up to a heavy cavalry charge.

 

*Sigh...*  Because they don't even try to "stand up to a heavy cavalry charge."  Their mobility allows them to avoid the brunt of the charge altogether.  They may take casualties, but it won't be anything compared to what another infantry unit would take if they attempted to "stand up to a heavy cavalry charge."

 

As has been stated several times in this thread by myself and many others, the Aiel don't press battle when the conditions don't favor them, unless they have no alternative.  They've got the best recon, they're as mobile as light cavalry (perhaps more so, since they're less impeded by terrain), they can double as artillery, so, unless you can out-maneuver them they're not gonna offer battle if the conditions are unfavorable.  They're gonna redeploy and get you when the ground favors them and/or when you least expect it.

 

Battle is not always (and as a matter of fact rarely is) the neat little lines of troops firing at or fighting one another across an open field on a clear day.  That 'senario' is a Hollywood story.

Your mobility doesnt mean shit against a horse. Not in the context of a battle.

The max speed for a horse is about 30-35 miles per hour . They can maintain this for maybe a mile or so. But we'll take that down to 25-30 as it has to carry a man.

The record for a human being is 22 miles per hour. Now this was in a 100 meter sprint but since all Aiel are superhuman gods we'll assume that not only is each of them as fast as the fastest human ever but they can maintain such a speed over the same mile even carrying the usual three spears, shield, bow and quiver full of arrows.

The point is, if you are light infantry there is no escape from cavalry. Your mobility doesnt mean anything because the horse is simply faster. If you try to get away you'll be run down.

As balefired said, skirmishing infantry get annihilated if they allow cavalry to close with them. No ifs, no buts, they just run right over you. As I've pointed out numerous times, even back when cavalry was fairly useless, before the invention of the stirrup and the adoption of lances for head on charges cavalry STILL owned light infantry. There's just nothing you can do, you can't get away, you can't hold your ground, you die to a man.

Not really an example of them being superhuman, so much as giving the impression of them as near superhuman.

 

I, like Braus, would very much like to see specific examples of the Aiel doing superhuman things, things that need a magical explanation. So far, we've not seen anything like that. Good try, elmis, but I'm not buying it. These things might be difficult, but they are possible.

Ok Mr Ares. I will accept that no single Aiel does something completely out of the realms of possibility for a human being. We don't see them fly or anything like that. However, the average Aiel regularly performs feats that should be legendary. Gaul for instance, went into that fight with the whitecloaks knowing he was going to win, as others keep pointing out, Aiel know when to back off. He was confident in his ability to thrash 10 fully armed and armoured professional soldiers with his bare hands after a day of privation. And from the interactions he has with other Aiel, Bain and Chiad for example, it doesnt seem like he is considered an especially exceptional warrior among the Aiel.

We're told that before this encounter Gaul and another Aiel decimated a group of a dozen soldiers, including two hunters for the horn, even though it was the Aiel who were surprised. When asked about it Gaul laughs and explains how they got surprised. The implication clearly being that had they been ready the Aiel would have mashed the other party and got away unscathed as is the usual pattern.

You say its difficult, but the Aiel don't seem to think so. It's just another day's work; casually annihilate a vastly numerically superior force of much better equipped troops.

A race of people from which the average member is capable of doing things like this and it not being a massive deal is clearly superior to the species of which you and I are members.

 

 

A few points.

1) The Aiel have never actually been "caught in the open" by anyone.  As multiple people have pointed out, they employ scouts and wear camouflage.  They also move very fast for a very long time.  They are both aware of their surroundings and very hard to track down.

2) Mr Ares just provided an example of the Aiel standing up to cavalry and the tactics they used.

3) The Aiel do not fear death.  If cavalry charged them, they would take the losses necessary to break the charge.

3.5) The Aiel would maybe fear cavalry if the cavalry were used effectively, but they aren't.  Like I said before, Rand's POVs during battle scenes makes it pretty clear that many of the Cairhienin and Tairen officers simply want to throw their cavalry at the enemy without even stopping to consider the circumstances.

4) If a couple of farmboys can train for less than a year and be better than the majority of the wetlander fighters, than I think the Aiel - who are in peak physical condition and trained in martial arts practically from birth -  have the right to scoff at wetlander martial abilities.

 

 

1)But if you're never prepared to fight in the open than you arent really an invasion, you're just a group of bandits. What are you going to achieve running and hiding all the time?

2)The fact that it happened in the books doesnt mean it is plausible in real life. Loose foot against cavalry is a massacre, every time. There is no tactic that will allow light infantry equipped for skirmishing to defeat, or even not get slaughtered by, heavy cavalry, once they have closed.

3)This is another aspect of the Aiel that is utterly unbelievable. Humans fear death. Even Spartan soldiers surrendered during the Peloponnesian  war. And they were routed at Leuktra. The fact that the Spartans never experienced a route in so long was more testament to their ability to win than their courage in the face of defeat. Everyone can be broken. While there are examples like Thermopylae where men fought to the death, they had time to prepare for this, even the bravest are scared of sudden terrors and being massacred by a sudden cavalry charge will send ANYONE running.

3.5)When your opponent has nothing on the field but light infantry throwing your cavalry at them is an effective tactic. All you need is a clear shot at them and you can charge to victory, they have nothing to withstand you. If they had some, any sort of deterrent it would be different. But there's just nothing there with the staying power to hold. They're all just flimsy, juicy targets. As I've said, troops like the Aiel were always cavalry's preferred target, even before stirrups, mail armour, or lances. They were the paper to your scissors.

4)The farmboys are magic.

Reading through again, do you truly believe I am the one who has been insulting?

You have been.

Right, so I give the specific examples in which each of us has ''insulted'' the other showing that you have done so both more often and more severely and you respond with an unsupported three word contradiction? That's basically the story of this whole argument right there.

And yet you've consistently thrown this at me:

But you don't say why

Again, you lack the why.

You say it, but where's the evidence? Nowhere to be seen.

The magnitude of your hypocrisy is truly astounding. That you can't see it is more so.

That said, you did briefly return to making actual points (as well as sense) that I can respond to, so I will.

And even when he does things unrelated to his supernatural powers? Like beating Galad and Gawyn? How about their skills, or Rand's instant blademastery?

Mat has supernatural luck, you cant really divorce that from anything that he does. It just means that everything is a bit more likely to go his way, still I don't believe that that explains why he beat Galad and Gawyn. I didn't find it that unbelievable that he could win, he winded Galad and took out Gawyn before either of them realized there was going to be a proper fight. Both of them expected to defeat him with absolutely no effort.

As for Rand, I was always under the impression that his void gave him an edge. The most unbelievable thing he does is take down that Seanchan guy in Falme. I did think that was a little weak. But still, these are main characters with all sorts of ta'veren, dead guy/guys in your head mystical ownage stuff going on, so whenever they do anything outrageous I just tell myself ''well, he's magic''.

If there was one other thing you've mentioned that I found as annoying as the Aiel it was when Galad massively outclassed the Shienarans and cut through that mob of people when Nynaeve and co left the circus. Thing is, Galad is a fairly minor character (thankfully) and doesnt appear often, so stupid stuff like that can be brushed over and forgotten. The Aiel appear all the time and the ridiculous amount of ass they kick is constantly shoved in your face.

It remains the case though that pointing out other things that are unbelievable doesnt make the Aiel less unbelievable. Like I said before, the fact that you're trying to say so is an implicit acceptance that they are to some extent unrealistic.

For example, you say they have rubbish equipment - not inferior, rubbish - and then you say spears are inferior to swrods in a melee. If we were talking about something 3m long, you'd have a point, that would be very unwieldy in close combat. But something no bigger than a sword? Used by someone who has trained with it for years, to an exceedingly high standard? Why is this such a vastly inferior weapon that you would expect them to be slaughtered by untrained peasants or idiotic nobles? Ridiculous.

Well, you yourself compared them to the Zulus, look how primitive they are. It would actually be difficult to imagine more primitive equipment than the Aiel have. The spear, along with the club was the earliest human weapon and their shields are as basic as you get. Can't really comment on the bows because as you said the only bows about which we know anything are Two Rivers ones.

The spears as they are explained is basically a sword with no edge, only the point. That's an inferior weapon, why ever not choose a sword? It's essentially the same weapon but it can only stab. Such a weapon would also forgo the effectiveness that proper polearms enjoy against cavalry, the very thing I have been saying would prove problematic for the Aiel and the very thing the wetlanders themselves love to use.

Anyway I haven't said the Aiel couldn't win against the wetlanders, only that they couldn't consistently annihilate them with the effortlessness implied in the books. Also the Aiel would never have developed this disdain and contempt for cavalry since they've got absolutely nothing to effectively fight it. They could only avoid it. When your every battle plan has to revolve around ''right, how do we prevent their cavalry from charging in and sweeping us from the field with extremely little effort?'' you're unlikely to view cavalry as the Aiel seem to in the books.

Also, you say ''untrained peasants''. I think you're overstating the case here. It is never said that wetlander armies are full of rabble. I've let this slide so far because I'll accept they'd be nowhere near as individually formidable as the Aiel but saying untrained peasants is a huge overstatement. Cairheinin soldiers shave the fronts of their heads, so we can assume soldiering is a career in Cairhien or they wouldn't have martial traditions like this. Also, Mat gets the Cairhienin pikemen to form a square at Cairhien. Even using a pike effectively in formation requires a fair bit of training, otherwise the pikes get tangled up, forming up square is more complicated still.

Where do you get the idea that wetlander armies are just peasants from?

You have not shown that to be true. You have shown that at least some people in the west are capable of building catapults, not that they are common knowledge or that the Aiel don't have them or that they would be effective anti-personnel weapons against the Aiel without the adjustments the AS made - exploding rocks - in the TR. You have not shown, either, that technology is so massive an advantage that it would overcome the Aiel advantages in leadership, discipline, ability to act in concert, quality of soldier, training, mobility, psychology, morale. Virtually every advantage lies with the Aiel, and those they don't have could be countered. In short, it is not implausible that they would win, it is exceedingly likely. They would win consistenly.

I really don't understand what you're talking about here. We should assume that the other wetlanders don't have catapults because it is not explicitly stated but we should assume that the Aiel do even though it is never so much as hinted at and all the evidence would point to them not?

Also, I'm certainly not going to deny the Aiel have an edge in the quality of their troops, but once again I think you overstate the case. The Aiel don't seem all that disciplined to me, they fight as individuals and only have one rank; Chief. There is never any mention of officers or underlings to the Chief of any kind. Just like cavalry, just like armour, officers were used for a reason, for a very good reason. We still use them today, we couldn't do without them. The Aiel military is archaic and unsophisticated, I cant understand how you can deny that. Yes they have great warriors but their military machine is just appalling.

My case is this; You cant just forgo all these very important things: cavalry, armour, close order infantry, weapons other than short spears, officers, and effortlessly annihilate people who do have them. If the only advantage you've got is how individually skilled and brave each of your men is every fight is going to be extremely hard. You can still win, but it will be a struggle and will require some very imaginative and inspired tactics.

And sorry, but the "cavalry is the be-all and end-all of warfare" viewpoint is just ignorant.  In the right conditions, cavalry will decimate infantry.  No one is arguing against this.  What we are arguing is that those conditions did not exist.

That is not what I have ever said. My position is that against an enemy that exclusively fields skirmishing light infantry, cavalry would be absolutely devastating. I argue that since this is the case it is unrealistic that the Aiel kick everyone's ass all over the place with little to no effort.

In such a situation, every battle would be a desperate attempt to avoid finding yourself in front of the enemy cavalry, and the Aiel would certainly have a healthy respect if not outright fear of what cavalry could do to them if they ever made a mistake. As I've said, loose skirmishing troops caught in the open by cavalry get obliterated and then mercilessly cut down to a man. But this isn't the case, the Aiel are blase and even contemptuous of wetlander martial skills for the most part and seem to view fighting from a horse as being faintly ridiculous.

Miltiades, I maintain that you are having a temper-tantrum, nothing you've shown me tells me any different.

 

If you continue to tell me that I'm being "intentionally disengenuous" I will begin to refer to you by that name since you're so clearly fond of that phrase. I assure you that I am not naive, intentionally or otherwise.

 

As to your point about telling another poster to "shove it", I used to be involved in wonderful reasonable, debates in high school and anyone who told another person to, in your words, shove it, was thrown out. Not acceptable bahviour in a debate, not called having a spine.

 

As to the topic at hand, personally I find that the Aiel are perfectly plausible in the context that RJ has written them. AS Hy just pointed out in the post above, cavalry warfare is not the be all and end all. The Aiel clearly are not stupid and will devise tactics to deal with any cavalry sent against them suitably.

The online dictionary you used to look up the word disingenuous gave you a much more rarely understood and accepted definition. By disingenuous I meant not that you were naive but that you are being insincere. You know full well I have shown respect to every poster who has answered in a reasonable fashion and shown me the same courtesy, even if they disagreed. It is only those who felt the need to lace their answers with scorn, ridicule and insults that received any disrespect from me. Of course the point is that you know all this already, you are choosing to ignore the facts, that is why I call you disingenuous; because you are not being genuine.

''nothing you've shown me tells me any different''? You mean nothing I could have shown would have convinced you? Lets be honest here, that is why you are not even defending the assertion anymore but merely stating that you will not change your mind no matter what. You have no argument against my defense of my behavior, but you'll stick to the temper tantrum explanation though you know it to be false. Disingenuity.

You can make your excuses all you like, the fact remains that I have not disrespected anyone who did not disrespect me first. Until you show where I did that you're claim of me throwing a temper tantrum will remain the empty, ridiculous, farce that it is.

Mr Ares, I'm not going to both to respond to most of your drivel this time.

However I would like you to to answer a few points.

You say my posts are made up of insults. Well, lets see, I have so far told you that I respect your intelligence less because of your use of ad hominem attacks in a specified case. Not even a direct insult, I never said you were unintelligent, only that I now respected your intelligence less for a very specific and (I believe reasonable) cause. You on the other hand have repeatedly called me stupid, an idiot and a tosser. It isn't just that you're being dense now, it is that what you are saying is actually the exact and precise opposite of the truth. Answer me this? Reading through again, do you truly believe I am the one who has been insulting?

Lets face it, you skip over the bits you cant answer. You used Mat as an example of something equally unbelievable yet Mat has supernatural powers, the precise thing I said the Aiel would need to make them believable. So you are just out and out wrong. There is no two ways about it, you spoke in haste and made a mistake, but you won't admit it. Could you please defend this point and say why your comparison remains valid despite this? And please make it an actual answer not the usual evasion or distortions you've used so far?

Also could you answer this?

The burden of proof is one you.

Exactly how is that an answer, you're just blagging your way through what I said. I gave my reasons, you keep stating I don't give reasons or evidence but I've been doing that all along and you choose to respond with flippant dismissals like this, no counter argument, just one line of irrelevant baiting. Tell me, as you keep going on about how you ''refute'' what I say, is this the sort of thing you're talking about?

Also this

Not in the slightest bit relevant.

The fact that the wetlands have access to military technology far and above anything that the Aiel have is not in any way relevant? Again you say you refute my points, is this what you mean? Simply stating that the point is invalid while giving no reasons?

To be honest I do find it quite funny how the insults are being scattered ever more liberally through your posts. All the while you tell me I'm the arrogant one and I'm the one who is being insulting. Maybe you find being shown up again and again to be an implicit insult to your intelligence, who knows? I can see you are one of those people who thinks disagreement with his view is a personal affront. I've been nothing but civil in the face of your increasing hostility, anybody who reads back through our actual posts will see that it is you who has raised the bar for aggression and disrespect at every turn, and I have declined to be baited by you.

Well, I agree with you, Miltiades! And I don't like them, no way!  :(

*Btw, you my grandpa was called Miltiades/end spoiler/

Thank you for the support.

Your grandfather was called Miltiades? Are you Greek by any chance?

I named my profile after the Athenian strategos at Marathon.