Eg does a great deal to change this during the meeting, but that doesn't alter the reality and perception before the meeting

No, I think the seafolk reaction to teachers are nuts. But I don't recall seeing any other teachers on screen to compare how bad the treatment is. We know from the gift of passage that AS are treated differently than other people, because the seafolk are scsred of being discovered.

 

The situation's also a little different because normal teachers can leave but the AS are stuck

 

Exactly. However they treat other teachers, the Seafolk fear and distrust the AS too much to give them an inch and they have very valid reasons for feeling that way. 

 

I think a big part of the problem is the cultural disconnect, especially in the role of advisors/teachers or anything like that.

 

A big part of it was that Elayne and co thought the advisor/teacher was a honoured position, whereas obviously the sea folk thought it was a low ranking or terrible rank.

 

Which, let's be honest, isn't a very realistic outlook. What kind of culture regards being a teacher as being just short of a deckhand, and actually seems to find it shaming? 

 

I always took the Sea Folk's position on the Aes Sedai teachers as a defense mechanism more than anything else. I mean, really, if you and your people had managed to avoid WT entanglements for pretty much ever and you got the opportunity to learn from them, knowing how they always march in and take over and turn everyone into obedient lapdogs (be it from bullying or manipulation), would you want to take any chances that your entire race ends up being controlled by the WT? I sure as hell wouldn't. I'd want to make sure the "teachers" knew their place and that they would not be taking over or manipulating my people at all, and would want to go out of my way to make them fear us instead of the other way around. Additionally, the Sea Folk knew the AS would somehow end up stealing every last channeler from them given half a chance, and wanted to nip that in the bud. The scene where they abused Nynaeve irritated me to no end, and I find most of the Sea Folk detestable, but I can't blame them for wanting to get the upper hand with the AS...otherwise, they would've ended up obeying the AS and jumping when the bloody women clapped. 

 

This was not a meeting between friends, or even allies. It was a meeting between a woman who saw herself as the Creator's hand dealing with a man who knew if, he gave even an inch, she would run over him and he would be forced to go to the Last Battle her way rather than on his own terms (and her throwing out the "do it the same way, at least we know how to deal with insane male channelers so it's no big deal" idea did not help matters at all, and made it clear to him that she only cared about her power and the WT's position as rulers of the world).

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I am breaking my self-imposed rule of avoiding responding to you altogether, and I know I will regret it, but I have to ask...

Why, exactly, do you think she threw that suggestion out there if not to protect the White Tower, and ultimately, her own interests? You can twist it, if you'd like, and say that it was to protect the world - better the devil you know, so to speak - but the fact remains that she did suggest it and had to have had reasons for it. Since she truly believes that the world can't function without AS pulling strings, it stands to reason that it had something to do with the fact that she told the Dragon Reborn that perhaps he should TAINT SAIDIN ALL OVER AGAIN AFTER HE RISKED HIS EFFING LIFE TO CLEANSE IT! 

<removed>

 

 

Her and Rand both were so ridiculous in that scene, she changed completely and acted like a total idiot, all her development thrown out the window. First she goes in and intends to have the White Tower in control of the Last Battle (inconsistent in itself) then when Rand says the Amyrlin is no good to lead, she doesn't say a thing. Not to mention that bloody farce of a paragraph when she suggests Rand takes the "safe" option and gets saidin tainted again! Of course, she is not doing what Rand says, but there is no way I am buying Egwene would suggest that, no matter the reasons. Since when has she ever shirked from a difficult task. Rand's reaction to it was similarly ridiculous, but at least understandable in the slightest, it was so out of character that it almost seemed like a reasonable conclusion for Rand.

 

Her meeting with Tuon was good for her, but it made Tuon out to be a total idiot - which she is most definitely not, whatever else you may call her. Egwene was awesome, but unfortunately it required replacing Tuon with Mesaana.

 

Then the random flip with the Seals was ridiculous. It reminds me off the cliche of a villain "righting all their wrongs" on their deathbed. It was good that she came to the conclusion, but poorly done. She should have slowly changed her mind, seeing the horrors of the Last Battle, and the balefire, slowly realise that it was necessary.

 

I agree with you on her meeting with Tuon. Much like a multitude of other scenes, on character was turned into a bumbling idiot in order to make the other character appear badass and awesome (most of the time, that did not work on me, except when it was an underdog getting some back at an annoying prig of a character). I don't think Tuon was the type to turn into a moron simply because Egwene raised her chin and looked superior, not when Tuon had been raising her chin and looking superior (while plotting to drive a knife in someone) for most of her life. She has far more experience at that crap. If anything, the meeting should've simply given Tuon some food for thought, rather than making her (just like everyone else Egwene decides to stomp down) look like Egwene's bitch. 

As for the Rand/Egwene thing, I thought the same as you, more so with Rand than with Egwene. However, I went back and re-read the book and I guess distance gave me a bit of perspective, or at least I managed to come up with an explanation. There are certain people in your life, or that you meet throughout your life, that affect you the same way you would be affected by having a cheesegrater dragged across your skin (or the reaction you have when someone rakes their nails down a chalkboard, or whatever sound/feeling you find most irritating). Hell, I've met one of those people on this very board (and no, fionwe, it's not you, though sometimes I think battling you with those foam covered bats would be a great deal of fun so I could beat you in the head a bit :P). The point is, there are people we encounter who grate on us and who cause us to turn into a defiant, loud-mouthed jerk simply because we can't stand them and if they say up, we want to say down even when we know they're right. I'm sure some people will deny it, but it is simply human and everyone behaves that way on occasion, be it due to being around an annoyance or being stuck in a situation that simply grates on our nerves. Unless you slip into what my mother aptly named "robot mode" to avoid showing emotion, it's going to happen sooner or later. I think that sums up Rand and Egwene's reaction to each other. They may have once been friends, they may have once been promised to each other, but they were always like oil and water - they simply don't mix, and they don't bring out the best in each other, but rather, more often than not, the worst.

In that context, the scene between the two of them, with Egwene being a self-righteous overbearing bitch and Rand acting like an adolescent having a hissy fit and stomping out in a fit of anger, makes perfect sense. Had Egwene never been Amyrlin, and Rand never the Dragon Reborn, they might have been able to grow enough to deal with each other reasonably, but their positions ensured that neither of them would budge an inch. This was not a meeting between friends, or even allies. It was a meeting between a woman who saw herself as the Creator's hand dealing with a man who knew if, he gave even an inch, she would run over him and he would be forced to go to the Last Battle her way rather than on his own terms (and her throwing out the "do it the same way, at least we know how to deal with insane male channelers so it's no big deal" idea did not help matters at all, and made it clear to him that she only cared about her power and the WT's position as rulers of the world). So, really, the scene is perfectly believable. That's not to say that the characters did not behave erratically - they did, in other ways - but this scene fit, in my opinion. 

I think another reason why Rand didn't want to have a proper discussion with Egwene when he went to her at the White Tower was because he would have been extremely uncomfortable in that situation.  He is shielded, brought before the Hall of the Tower, in Egwene's seat of power, and Egwene wants to send him to Yellow Sisters to be checked over.  I think Egwene at some point thinks about if they can keep him there are guide him.  Rand seems very zen in this scene, but in AMoL we see that a lot of the Zen!Rand behaviour is actually a front.  He still has many of the same insecurities and fears that he always did, they are just better under control.  He is not completely trusting of the Aes Sedai (unsurprisingly given that the majority of his experiences with them have been unpleasant - kidnap, manipulation, lack of respect, a desire to guide him, etc.), and within the White Tower I get the impression that he would be expected to defer to Egwene (e.g. he bows to her while she does not show him any similar sign of respect).  I don't think the White Tower presents particularly favourable conditions for a meeting.

This, a thousand times over. If you look at the scene where he shows up to the WT, it sort of mirrors the scene where Cadsuane marched into Rand's "throne room" and made him lose his cool, and the more I think about it, the more I think it was intentional. First, it showed that Rand had, indeed, grown, and that he was in control of himself (something he lacked when Caddy walked in and practically poked him in the eye after proverbially spitting in his face). Second, it showed that Rand had learned the game, the very game Egwene learned to master almost immediately after watching Moiraine stick her nose up in the air and be mysterious, only sharing what she thought others needed to know (something Egwene was still doing at that point and thought was fine, as long as she was the one controlling information and the one with the upper hand). 

The scene had things that added more layers as well, such as Rand being shielded and being treated extremely hostilely, whereas Cadsuane might have been treated with hostility but she was not shielded and knew Rand could not hurt her thanks to her ornaments. Rand seemed confident, and his ta'veren nature might have protected him had Egwene really tried to take him into custody, but he could not have known that, so it is even more of a testament to how much he had grown that he remained so calm when he had an entire Tower of women who were so obviously against him. As you said, Rand's reluctance to have a proper discussion was likely due to the circumstances - ability to emit calm or not, their treatment of him was ridiculously hostile, and that includes Egwene's treatment of him as Amyrlin. Plus, he needed to speak to an equal and he could not do that in Egwene's throneroom with her up on a pedestal and him practically bound and chained before her with her treating him as though he were a supplicant rather than the Dragon Reborn and, in the past, a friend. But he needed to get her attention, he needed to get her to come to *him*, and the only way to do that was to pull a Cadsuane...walk into her inner sanctum, poke her in the eye to get her attention while showing that he had no fear of her or her minions (which made her and them off balanced) then march out. Cadsuane would've been proud of him, I believe. 

The scene also showed something about Egwene, and about what Cadsuane would've really wanted from him. I'll be the first one to say I have never liked Egwene and my dislike of her character only grew with each successive novel. However, overlooking her detestable thoughts in this scene (for example, how she considered doing just what she blasted Elaida for trying, i.e., kidnapping Rand and forcing him under her authority), she behaved about as well as could be expected from anyone in this scene. For the most part, she remained calm and maintained her air of authority, and it was only when he really poked her in the eye with the seals that she started to lose it. Even then, she did not turn into a ranting, raving maniac like Rand would have done only days before. She just got understandably pissy and tried to get the upper hand back by insisting he couldn't leave without asking permission first, and he basically won that with her as well, by telling her not to make him defy her in "her house". I don't think the queen of cold, Cadsuane, could've handled the situation with any more grace and calm than Egwene, and that says something. 

That said, I think the fact that it mirrors the Rand/Cadsuane scene also reminds us of something else - no matter how cool you think you are, there will be situations (and people) who can get under your skin and throw you off balance. We get reminded time and again throughout the series that, despite the fact that Aes Sedai like to present themselves as equals to the Creator, they are, in the end, human. They have human feelings (some of them, anyway!) and human reactions. Training yourself to never show emotion, no matter what happens, can never ensure that you can maintain a calm facade in 100% of all situations. Egwene had gotten to the point where she and, more importantly, the readers, believed her to be completely unflappable and that nothing could ever get under her skin, thereby putting her in the 'top dog' position no matter the situation. I think this scene was a bit of a reminder that, no matter how awesome some readers think she is, she's human, just like Rand. 

 

Logain breaks the seals after hearing Egwenes last words - look for the light (to paraphrase).  Breaking the seals at the wrong time would have been disastrous.

 

Additionally as Sutt says, she healed much of the damage done by balefire and took out most of the Sharan Channelers. 

 

Given that Moiraine was crucial for bringing Rand and Eg together, then Eg was important.

 

Indeed, as I said above she set the WT to studying the situation in the archives and they found:

 

AMoL

Elayne shuffled through the sheets of paper, then stopped on one of them. " 'His blood shall give us the Light . . .' " She rubbed the page with her thumb, as if lost in thought. " 'Wait upon the Light.' Who added this note?"

 

"That is Doniella Alievin's copy of the Termendal translation of The Karaethon Cycle," Egwene said. "Doniella made her own notes, and they have been the subject of nearly as much discussion among scholars as the Prophecies themselves. She was a Dreamer, you know. The only Amyrlin that we know of to have been one. Before me, anyway."

 

"Yes," Elayne said.

 

"The sisters who gathered these for me came to the same conclusion that I have," Egwene said. "There may be a time to break the seals, but that time is not at the start of the Last Battle, whatever Rand thinks. We must wait for the right moment...

 

Two things about this reference...

First, I've seen numerous people blast Rand for not sharing information with Egwene, but I wonder if those people see anything wrong with the fact that she failed to share this bit of info with him. She certainly saw no problem ramming her dream down his throat as evidence that the seals should not be broken, so why not share this, as well as the fact that the sisters who found it came to the conclusion that the seals have to be broken but didn't think they should be broken immediately. 

Additionally, since other sisters found the info and read it - and came to the same conclusion - then those sisters could have easily passed that info along to someone like, say, Cadsuane or Nynaeve (someone Rand trusts and would listen to if she presented the info to him), so Egwene wasn't exactly the end-all-be-all of necessity that some people like to pretend. In fact, I think Rand would've entrusted the seals to Nyn without a thought. Egwene would never have agreed, of course, because she thinks Rand is somehow mind-controlling Nyn to keep her from agreeing with every foul thing Egwene utters about him. 

As far as the damage done by balefire, Brandon was quoted as saying that damage would've eventually healed once the DO was locked away again, so that wasn't really 'necessary' except as a means to get Egwene out of the picture so the 4th age could begin without a wannabe world dictator (who would never be able to negotiate with the Seanchan due to her hatred of them and had no intention of treating the Asha'man as anything but enemies or Warders-to-be) in charge of the WT. So there goes reason number two that she was so irreplaceable for the Last Battle. 

I know I won't change anyone's mind, anymore than the Egwene lovers will change mine, but that's how I see it. It's in the text. How you interpret it is dependent on whether you think Egwene is awesome or you think she's little better than Elaida (and just as much of a despot). 

This, I can totally agree with. I can see her being infatuated with him. But why in the world does she love him? In many ways, I wish RJ had kept her and Rand together. Maybe they put their relationship on hold, initially, and get back together only after they've dealt with their challenges. But having the chief male and female protagonists of the series in a relationship would have been too cliched, I guess.

RJ could not have let the Rand/Egwene relationship stand without ruining Rand and turning the Dragon Reborn into a joke. Egwene would accept nothing less than complete subservience from any man in her life, one willing to submit to her in everything, both behind closed doors and in public. The world could not afford to have its savior be her lapdog. You yourself said that they each had a role and had to oppose each other - put Rand under her thumb as her manslave, and all you have is Egwene running the show, which means the seals would never have been broken and Rand would've been forced to reseal the DO the same way LTT did it. That would've also left saidin tainted again, something that Egwene was perfectly content to see happen again, but would've kept the balance in the world completely and utterly skewed to the WT and women. 

Llltempest, it goes without saying that I whole heartedly disagree with you and I think the text supports my thesis that Egwene was no a cold hearted bitch who deserves little more than a dark friend or Padan Fain, perhaps.

 

That said, you win, because BS clearly agrees with you and he is the one who got to finish the book and kill Egwene.  You and all the others like you must have loved it and reveled in every moment of her pain, anguish and largely unmourned and unnecessary death. So, it must be nice. 

 

For me, the time and effort I spent reading, knowing and loving all the characters has come to a very bitter sweet somewhat empty end for me.  And I will never feel satisfied with Egwene's arc.  As it was clearly written by one who thinks the same as you do, dear Lilltempest.

Personally, I think BS liked her to the point where other characters suffered in aMoL for it. I mean, think about it...Egwene basically single-handedly fought and the AS were nothing but her backup. No one else got to "shine" on the battlefield she commanded. She didn't let anyone else touch her sa'angreal and was channeling almost constantly, with only small breaks (during which she had her sa'angreal and didn't let anyone else touch it). She never bent her neck and was never forced to (whereas all of the other characters were humbled, some - like Rand and Nynaeve - far more than others, to the point of complete humiliation). Rand even commented on it during his soliloquy to the DO. She got to stay prideful and arrogant until the very end.

Honestly, I think the reason she was killed off was because RJ intended her reign as Amyrlin to end with TG. Whether or not RJ specified she should die may be something we never know, but it's clear he specified that Cadsuane was to be Amyrlin...that was in his notes. It might have been BS's decision to kill Egwene off, for all we know, and if it was, I think he likely saw it as doing her character a favor - if she survived, she would have been burned out, we saw that from her POV right before she crystallized herself. I think that, in his eyes, she would not have been able to deal with not being able to channel anymore (chances are that being burned out cannot be Healed, unlike being severed, since severing is a "clean" cut and burning out is something else entirely). IMO, if that was his reasoning, he was correct. As ambitious as Egwene was, skyrocketing to the top only to find herself without power - both figuratively and literally - would not sit well with her at all. She could've gone with the Wise Ones', I'm sure, since they all but worship her, but she would not necessarily have been their "leader", which would not have sat well with her at all (especially the first time they decided against whatever she wanted).Rand was far more suited to take that loss than she was, and he will be happy living a life of anonymity (as long as that lasts), whereas that would not have suited Egwene at all.

Dom, over at RAFO, had written quite a long post about why Egwene was not suited to be Amyrlin after the war and I think he was mostly on the money. I've included a link below, if you would like to read what he said. I always felt that, should Egwene be Amyrlin once TG was over, the world was in for a hell of a battle with her unless everyone submitted to the WT's (read: Amyrlin's) authority. I don't think there could have been real peace with her as Amyrlin, at least not for a while, because she was too determined to make the WT all-powerful again. What Dom said about balance made sense, though I doubt he and I see it in quite the same context. Without Rand taking a huge part in the world's affairs, Egwene was too dangerous to have as Amyrlin because there was no one else with the spine, or the means, to balance her out.

So the bottom line is that RJ stated Cadsuane would be Amyrlin, which meant Egwene had to be removed, one way or another. Personally, I think she was given the easy way out and handed, on a silver platter, recognition as a 'legend' instead of being forced to live a life without the power she had come to enjoy. And, no matter how much the AS came to revere her (part of which was self-preservation on their part - it's much easier to credit someone who cons you time and again as being brilliant than it is to admit you're a freaking moron), they would have taken her stole and ring once she was burned out. She did not have to suffer that humiliation, and she did not have to face living as a regular human being again. for her character, that was a gift. Death is lighter than a feather, after all...

Edited to add the link to Dom's post:

http://www.readandfindout.com/wheeloftime/messageboard/271649/

 

The scene with Amys is in TAR, where Egwene is approaching her dream.  The quote is: "...she approached a third womans dream.  Gingerly. So much lay between her and Amys that it seemed akin to approaching her mother."  Then Egwene talks about wanting Amys' respect.  I personally don't see that as friendship.  I think she is nervous at approaching Amys' dream as a mentor-mother figure. 

 

And I really don't think Siuan and Egwene are friends.  Siuan even says that she doesn't like Egwene.  They have immense respect for each other, but their relationship is a business one.  We never see them just chatting to each other, or seeking out each others company without a reason.

 

That's because Egwene doesn't have friends, if you look at the true definition. She has subjects (all Aes Sedai, including Siuan), allies (the WOs), enemies (Seanchan) and "problems" (people who won't submit to her, like Rand). But Egwene does not define friendship the same way we do. Perhaps she did, at one point, but once she embraced the trappings of power, that went out the window (and for those who say it's impossible, Siuan was friends with Moiraine, eve as Amyrlin, so it's not impossible, it just takes the willingness to stop being a total controlling bitch for a short time and not insisting everyone prostrate themselves before you every time you walk into the room).

From her POV, however, she does consider certain people to be friends...if they are completely submissive to her. I mean, look at her attitude about Gawyn - she treated him like garbage (he was a douchebag, too, to be fair) and, even after he saved her life, she allowed him to apologize to her for "disobeying" her and saving her crappy little life instead of admitting she should've listened (she had even thought to herself when she believed him to be dying that she was wrong). After she bonded him, she thinks that she would've done it sooner if she had known how 'dedicated' (i.e., submissive and subservient) he was to her. When she thinks of him beforehand, she angrily thinks that he and Nynaeve, of all people since they claim to be her friends, should exist only to see her will done. Excuse me?? It's funny how everyone goes on and on about how Rand shouldn't expect people to mindlessly go along with whatever he wants ("he's the Dragon Reborn, not the Creator!") but those same people have no problem with Egwene expecting her friends to be mindless sycophants, at best, slaves at worst.

The bottom line is that Egwene had what she wanted, so it's a bit absurd to feel sorry for her for being "alone". She didn't want real friends in the sense that most people do. She wanted people to obey her without question and to not argue with her or object to anything she did or wanted. She wanted to manipulate and dominate, and feared (I think this was truly her only real fear) that she would lose face or authority if she allowed even one person to address her as a person instead of as some sort of Creator-chosen goddess whose authority outweighed all, even behind closed doors. She felt the need to make it clear to everyone that she was above them, but she especially felt that need with Nynaeve and Rand...with them, it was always more a rivalry than a friendship.

If there is any female character in the series that needs sympathy for never having a friend or "sister", it's Nynaeve. She was an outcast from the start. At least, in the end, Rand was her friend. And she had Lan. But female friends? Elayne tolerated her, but even though she had said she wanted Nyn as her adviser, she didn't seem to like her as a human being. And Nyn was the softest-hearted character in the whole series...Egwene was, quite possibly, the most hard-hearted when it suited her.

 

I'm not getting into this argument again, though I will say that I don't think Egwene is a psychopath (I'd come closer to agreeing that she's a sociopath than a psychopath, but I think it's borderline there, rather than a certainty) and that she is, undoubtedly, a narcissist. In fact, I think she suffers from Narcissist Personality Disorder, but anyway...

 

I suggest that the issue isn't Egwene being a narcissist, but RJ not understanding what's wrong with narcissism. He unrealistically gives Egwene traits of narcissism, without following through and making her a menace. Likewise, he unrealistically gives the Aes Sedai and Wise Ones horrible initiation rituals where they strip young women naked and subject them to severe physical and emotional trauma -- and doesn't follow through on the consequences there either. Egwene is tortured by Silviana remember, and they become bffs after. Cadsuane had an Amyrlyn kidnapped and abused in order to make her "stronger" -- and it worked!

 

It's unfair to blame the characters for this. This is a universe where torturing people is good for them, and narcissism isn't a severe personality disorder that destroys families. If you're desperate for an in-world explanation, blame it on the Bore, and the Dark One having more influence over people's emotions. I think it's just author bias though.

ROTFLMAO! It's "unfair" to blame characters for how horrible they may seem? I'm sorry, but that makes no sense at all. RJ may or may not have been aware of the problems with narcissism, but he did, indeed, make Egwene a narcissist, as well as a crappy friend and a dominating witch. To suggest that I should like the character despite that - because you think RJ meant for Egwene to be likable or whatever - is silly.

Furthermore, I think it's well past time to let go of the idea that Egwene was "tortured" by Silviana. Torture is what was done to Rand by the AS - when he was locked in a tiny box and taken out only to be beaten mercilessly. Torture is what was done to Rand by Semirhage - being collared and forced to hurt someone he loves. Torture is what was done to Egwene when she was collared by the Seanchan - when they collared her and caused her pain for not obeying and tried to take away her identity and turn her into a mindless slave. But what Silviana did was SPANKING! For God's sake, she was Healed to make sure no blood was drawn and they were careful to make sure they did not BREAK her. Torture is meant to break someone...they weren't trying to break Egwene with spankings, they were merely trying to get her to stop being an obnoxious bitch. And they failed miserably!

 

So bottom line - she did it because she was losing everything she valued most (power and influence) so death was welcome. Any good that came out of it was just gravy.

There are numerous quotes throughout the book that show her drive for power was for the greater good Lil and aimed towards helping the world at the LB(there are multiple quotes of that nature). I know you don't like her but you can surely see that. It's not as if she was on a power trip to for some insidious purpose.

 

You are of course welcome to your interpretation in the above when she took out everyone but her helping heal the pattern and then helping Rand make the right decision which pushed him to overcome the DO pretty calls it into question.

The problem, Suttree, is that, in her mind, "the greater good" means her controlling everything, and that is not good. Also, her actions on her climb to the top were not all charitable...in fact, most of her actions were quite the opposite and meant to "show" people that she was not to be pushed around. She has always been ridiculously ambitious, dismissive of others when she disagrees with them, manipulative, rude (with Nyn and Rand), contrary (particularly with Rand), blind to the problems that can stem from her desire to have people be her mindless slaves (and don't tell me that's not what she wanted when she had thoughts about how her friends, of all people, shouldn't resist her and should exist merely to "see her will done"), and too wrapped up in her own self-importance. I agree that she never acted with the intent to harm the Light, but her attitude that the White Tower is all that matters in the world, and that the Amyrlin is only second to the Creator (and, at times, it seems Egwene believes herself to be the Creator's equal) is both dangerous and narcissistic. As far as her not being on a power trip for nefarious purposes, that doesn't change the fact that she was on a power trip...a huge one. There were two choices by the time the final book rolled around - Egwene either had to have an epiphany and step back from the power trip or she had to be removed from a position where she wielded so much power. There were too many comments/scenes that reiterated how bad it was to become too powerful without restraints. Personally, I think the Pattern led her to using that weave to get rid of her because she had resisted coming to terms with the fact that she's not perfect and was not capable of accepting the fact that the WT isn't the end-all-be-all authority in the world and that she could not - or rather, should not - manipulate/trick/dictate everyone to her will.

As for Rand, she didn't help him overcome the DO. The voice in his head wasn't her, but rather what he imagined her saying (she has been too antagonistic to him from the beginning to show that much kindness). Her death helped him see the light (light which he had supposedly already seen at the top of Dragonmount, but whatever), but she did not speak to him directly or help him as a friend would help him. Perhaps that was another reason the Pattern needed her to be removed...to help Rand see that others had to be willing to sacrifice their lives too.

*edited to finish a sentence I somehow half deleted!*

She...gives her life...to kill dreadlords...at the last battle...........what the fuck do you mean she doesn't do anything for the greater good?

I'm not getting into this argument again, though I will say that I don't think Egwene is a psychopath (I'd come closer to agreeing that she's a sociopath than a psychopath, but I think it's borderline there, rather than a certainty) and that she is, undoubtedly, a narcissist. In fact, I think she suffers from Narcissist Personality Disorder, but anyway...

It can be argued that what she did was not for the greater good or that, at least, that was not her primary motivation. Egwene was on a power trip from hell during the entire Last Battle, thinking she was the only one who mattered ("all of the Aes Sedai can die, but as long as I live, the White Tower stands!"), she knew what was best (be it breaking the seals, how to organize an army, etc), and no one could possibly face her and win (I honestly wanted her to go after Demandred so he could crush her like a bug...it would've been far more fitting and a nice slap in the face to the Aes Sedai, but whatever). She was determined to find a way around balefire and did, but right before she makes the decision that ends her life, she realizes that she is burned out and has a thought that, as soon as she releases saidar, she won't channel again. I've seen it argued that, since severing can be Healed, someone who is burned out could likely be Healed as well, but I disagree. And I doubt it would've crossed Egwene's mind (we definitely didn't see her think of it) that she could be connected to the Source again. That was the moment she made her decision to die, when she realized she was burned out.

And, personally, I think that's what made her decide to kill herself in order to take out Taim and all of the 400 Sharans - after all, up until that point, she was convinced she was too crucial to everything and the world couldn't survive without her. Her attitude only changed once she realized she'd never channel again and that never being able to channel again would no longer be top Aes Sedai and would not be Aes Sedai at all. All of the power she enjoyed, all of the influence she wielded in order to ram her demands down everyone's throats, would be gone. She'd have to be  "normal" and would likely be left taking orders from someone, something she had counted on never doing again as the "supreme" authority in the world (she even made a reference to being "above" everyone else and the "supreme" authority when she was thinking about signing her own marriage certificate to Gawyn, which was an unnecessary action unless she was that arrogant and too stubborn to accept that anyone else had any authority in anything that involves her...and she is that arrogant). I don't think she could deal with that and that was why she made the decision to overdraw on the sa'angreal. The good that came of it was secondary for her, though at least (in her mind), she got to go out as the most powerful woman ever and as "impressive" as Rand, which was a big problem with her - she was always jealous of him and wanted to be more important and more powerful than him.

So bottom line - she did it because she was losing everything she valued most (power and influence) so death was welcome. Any good that came out of it was just gravy.

 

 

there is no foreshadowing of egwene's death at all in this series. not even once.

 

That is just not true.  All the talk about her being the longest reigning Amyrlin ever was pretty obvious foreshadowing.  She topped my shortlist of characters I thought would die.  To be fair though, I had Rand up there with her.

 

There's a min vision of her getting her neck broken, not sure how much more explicit a possibility you could ask for.

Amusingly enough, if Gawyn had chosen to break her neck instead of enslaving himself to her, he'd probably be alive now.

 

"The Aes Sedai were planning an elaborate memorial for Egwene; Tam preferred a quiet affair for his son"

 

Where  I can find this ???? 

In the epilogue. And it reflects the two of them quite well - a nice, quiet funeral for Rand with no huge fuss, and a huge elaborate worshipfest for Egwene.

 

 

 

There is no connection between Egwene and the land like what Rand has.Did the grass grow green around her? Did sunlight show where she walked?.The Dragon is a special soul.Egwene is not.She is not even a hero of the horn.Taking some of Egwene's own observations when she held Saider and connecting it to what Rand does with his very presence(not the OP) is quite a stretch.

 

She did not want Saiden tainted? She suggested Rand do the same thing he did in the last age and then said we are prepared to handle tainted Saiden this time.What book are you reading?

 

 It was brought up and then quickly dissmissed. She did not seriously "want saidin to be tainted again" as you claim above.

 

Further the connection the land is made clear and then hammered home even more so with her healing the pattern with her death.

 

That whole sequence is rather poorly constructed but I think that a blanket allegation of 'troll-ness' for citing it is a little overdone.

 

She is obtuse and stubborn about breaking the seals and she does seriously suggest a course of action that would essentially repeat LTT's mistake.  And, given the circumstances of the confrontation between Rand and Egwene in the tent, Rand's response about the taint does fit. 

 

--

"Is that so bad?" Egwene said.  "At least it's sure. You sealed the Bore last time.  You know how to do it."

"We could end up with the taint again."

"We're ready for it, this time.  No, it wouldn't be ideal.  But Rand.... do we really want to risk this?  Risk the fate of every living being?  Why not take the simple path, the known path?  Mend the seals again.  Shore up the prison."

"No, Egwene."  Rand backed away.  "Light! Is this what it's about?  You want saidin to be tainted again..."

--

 

Obviously, Rand's reaction here isn't the best.  However, it is understandable emotional reaction given what Rand has experienced as a result of being a male channeler. He's felt the direct effects of the taint, lived with the fear of being gentled, and  endured the stigma related to men channeling.  (Somewhat, ironically in the last case, given her reaction to him in the last chapter of TEOTW.) But if we look at what Egwene's proposed course of action, it does have the potential to result in the taint again.  If Rand attempts to seal the bore again and the Dark Lord counters in the same way Saidin gets tainted.  If Egwene attempts to seal the bore the same way... the taint happens.  If both men and women work together to seal the bore in the same way both sides of the source get tainted.  Egwene may not have wanted the taint, but the taint may very well be an unintended consequence of her stated position in this argument.

 

On the whole 'balance' thing it may well be a feature of this book.  I don't necessarily buy it at this point because it feels too much like a Sanderson invention without significant foreshadowing in the earlier RJ books which makes me tend to think of it as a bug rather than a feature.

I don't think Egwene saw the retainting of saidin as an "unintended consequence". She knew that it would likely be tainted again if Rand repeated what LTT had done, and found that an acceptable price for sealing away the DO because she thought the price of breaking the seals and Rand doing something else might be worse than that (for her, the AS, and the world as a whole). It was a cold thing to say, does not present her character in a very good light, and clearly shows that she doesn't understand in the least what it was like to be a male channeler before (and after, really) Rand Healed the taint. But it is understandable given her extreme fear of breaking the seals since, in her eyes, doing that will destroy everything. She was not willing to even consider that it was the right thing to do.

Likewise, I don't see anything wrong with Rand's reaction to what she said, since she was, in effect, saying that she was fine with saidin being tainted again, with the reasoning that "we know how to handle it this time" (i.e., sever all male channelers, which will ultimately kill them). If someone stood in front of you and said they didn't really care if what was going to happen meant you and all of your kind would be slaughtered again after suffering from a horrible mental illness (and being treated as criminals for something they can't control, because I can guarantee that would have continued), then you wouldn't be so happy with them either. Rand was completely justified in his reaction.

On the balance thing...no, I don't buy it either. Egwene is not the Dragon's equal. Her actions did not bring "balance" to the world. All she did was provide a temporary bandaid over the damage caused by the balefire. There's no way in hell she's as important, or as connected to the land, as Rand. In fact, I don't see her as being any more connected to the land than any other channeler. She just happened to be in the right place at the right time because she was too egocentric to let someone else take the sa'angreal and face Taim. In the end, her "I have to do it all because no one is as awesome as me!" attitude led her to her death, one which she embraced fully once she realized she had burned herself out from channeling too much (something that should've been obvious to everyone around her given how she was constantly channeling and doing it all herself).

 

 

Egwene is the worst character from the series. From her selfishness to her insistence on the seals not being broken then to be broken by her(?) to wanting Saiden to be tainted again(that would be convinent for her eh?) to wanting the white tower to have leadership of the light's forces. Her ending was also cr@p. Thankfully she died while Tuon lives.

Seriously what is wrong with you xxx? Your are either trolling or have no concept of what you are reading. She didn't actually want Saidin to be tainted, Moiriane told her she needed to break the seals and her death helped heal the pattern itself. Her ending was well done, even people who dislike her have been claiming that.

 

Lastly contrary to what you have so shrilly claimed over and over we now see the direct balance between Dragon/Amyrlin and how they both have a connection to the land. Balance is the main theme of the books and it was highlighted in this instance.

 

 

There is no connection between Egwene and the land like what Rand has.Did the grass grow green around her? Did sunlight show where she walked?.The Dragon is a special soul.Egwene is not.She is not even a hero of the horn.Taking some of Egwene's own observations when she held Saider and connecting it to what Rand does with his very presence(not the OP) is quite a stretch.

 

She did not want Saiden tainted? She suggested Rand do the same thing he did in the last age and then said we are prepared to handle tainted Saiden this time.What book are you reading?

I agree about Egwene's supposed "connection" to the land. Yes, what she did put a patch on the damage, but she had no connection to the land the way Rand has a connection to the land. That was just her ego, as usual, because she couldn't stand Rand being more important than her.

As far as her wanting saidin tainted...I hate Egwene as much or more than anyone and i don't think she was saying she wanted it to be tainted. She was saying that it was an acceptable price for sealing away the DO, though. I think, in her little brain, she had convinced herself that he should repeat what LTT had done, with the probability of saidin being tainted right along with it, instead of risking a worse outcome (in her mind) than saidin being tainted. What Rand should've told the little arrogant turd is that saidar would've likely been tainted as well had women gone with LTT to the Bore and asked her if that was an acceptable outcome as well. Her tantrum after such a declaration would've been fun to watch, and would've given Moiraine a much more interesting time of making peace between Egwene and Rand - especially after both she and Nynaeve declared they were accompanying Rand to the Bore whether Egwene liked it or not so it would be a matter of "either the seals get broken and Rand does this the right way or they don't get broken and your precious sa'angreal will drive you batsh!te crazy when the DO makes his counterstroke...so make your choice, Egwene...".

 

I disagree. Egwene, given the state of mind she was in once she took over a united Tower, would have forced her mother and father to kneel and kiss her ring instead of treating them like a daughter should treat her parents. She seemed to believe everyone - especially those who knew her the best as something other than their superior - had to have the point driven home the hardest that she was their better and they had to show complete and utter obedience to her. Showing her with her parents that way would have made her come off even worse to people who disliked her character than she already did (and those who did like her would've still made excuses for her behavior).

To be fair that was in public. She was very clear how she wanted her friends to address in her private. It risked undermining her very tenuous authority having Nyn and Elayne treat as a friend instead of the Amyrlin in front of others. Additionally here is also the whole Nyn balance of power shift/Eggy coming of age that was a running point for some time in the story that plays into it.

She didn't allow Nynaeve to treat her as a friend in private, either, though. Her reasoning - so Nyn would learn to always treat her as a goddess in public and never publicly question her or go against her authority - would've applied even more so to her parents and people who had always seen her as a little girl. There was even a thought she had, in another book (one written by RJ), that she didn't want to see her family because they would have to kneel to her and kiss her ring and she was not certain they would comply - which, logically, would leave her in a position where she had to reprimand them and force them to show the respect she supposedly deserved as Amyrlin.

Case in point, Rand and Perrin both got to reconnect with their Emond's Field father figures before heading off to the last battle or before their last fights. In doing so they got reminded of their roots. Egwene was constantly aware of her roots in earlier books, making decisions as Amyrlin basd on advice or annecdotes she got from her father about how to be Mayor. Instead Sanderson writes her as an ego-maniac who doesn't even have a moment of softness for her own Husband.

 

Surey we could have had one less descripton of a point in the battle and instead had more than a throw away sentence mentioning that Egwene is now married. I think earlier when Gawyn asked she said she couldnt marry him without her Father present. Surely some grounding and a chance to show her loving nature by returning home for her wedding with her family, and some words of wisdom from her parents would have created more love for her character.

Also as far as I can tell her and Gawyn never really 'did it' in the books because they weren't married. A sex scene showing her nervous and inexperienced could have reminded us that although she's Amyrlin and learnt a lot she's still innocent and very young emotionally.

I disagree. Egwene, given the state of mind she was in once she took over a united Tower, would have forced her mother and father to kneel and kiss her ring instead of treating them like a daughter should treat her parents. She seemed to believe everyone - especially those who knew her the best as something other than their superior - had to have the point driven home the hardest that she was their better and they had to show complete and utter obedience to her. Showing her with her parents that way would have made her come off even worse to people who disliked her character than she already did (and those who did like her would've still made excuses for her behavior).

In some ways, she very much mirrored Tuon. Like Tuon, she expected everyone to submit to her authority. Like Tuon, she believed herself to be superior to everyone and that her position somehow made her more knowledgeable than everyone else. They are both unyielding. They both embrace the trappings of power - no matter who approaches them, they expect the person to follow protocol via a show of submission and humbleness toward them. Appearances mean everything to both of them - anyone who doesn't bow down enough to them is, in their minds, a challenge to their authority and can "ruin" them.

There are differences between them as well, but even those are somewhat similar. Unlike Tuon, who had a Truthspeaker, Egwene had no one to smack her down - publicly and privately - when she overstepped or did something dishonorable, while Egwene has the Hall that is supposed to keep her from becoming a tyrant. In either case, the "balance" can be disturbed - a Truthspeaker that is too enamored of Tuon would not do her duty and would be uncomfortable doing her duty (I think Selucia fits that description) just as a Hall that is too enamored or fearful or bullied by Egwene would fail to keep her from becoming a tyrant (and the "new" Hall fits this as well). Unlike Tuon, Egwene cannot simply send her army to destroy anyone who resists her authority but, instead, can manipulate and bully to replace rulers that are not submissive enough to her rule over them.

So it makes sense to me that there are no scenes showing Egwene in a situation where we would've expected her to behave like a woman instead of the Amyrlin. If there had been such scenes, they would have merely shown us that she can no longer be a woman...a daughter...a friend. Much like Fortuona, Egwene believes the Amyrlin cannot love. She cannot be seen as a daughter or a friend, she must always be the Amyrlin, a superior being that is to be obeyed and worshiped. The only chance she has to show anything differently is with the Wise Ones, women who she does treat as friends most of the time. And that's why we got that scene instead of a wedding or reunion with her parents.

Am I the only one who found the whole anti-Balefire thing to be a bit of an ass-pull?

You aren't alone. If it had been written differently, I probably wouldn't have minded.

A scene between Egwene and Nynaeve, before everyone split up, with Egwene commenting on the ground looking as though it were breaking apart and the darkness inside and Nynaeve commenting on how it reminded her of Healing men who have been severed would have fit nicely. Nynaeve is the expert on Healing what can't be healed, and Egwene excels at Earth and Fire. If Nyn had explained to her about how a severed channeler has to have something to bridge the gap that was created by the severing, then she would have thought on it (she has always been the type to think out weaves before trying them rather than fly by the seat of her pants the way Nynaeve does) and managed to reason out that the "nothingness" created in the land by balefire had to be filled with something...and that something is probably life/soul/whatever.

In that scene, I honestly thought she wanted to die, not because of Gawyn, but because she had channeled so much for so long that she knew she would be burned out as soon as she released saidar. Egwene could not survive without that power - she would've lost everything, because no matter how "awesome" all the AS think she is, they would've have allowed her to be their little dictator if she could not channel. Though I don't think she would've gone that far in her thought process, I could've seen her consciously making the decision to sacrifice herself to "fill" those gaps with the weave she managed to create, one that used Earth and Spirit to send her "light" (her life) into the Pattern to fill the gaps, and knowing that it would take that sacrifice to truly fill the gaps. Balefire steals life, but it also puts holes in the Pattern, ultimately endangering the turning of the Wheel...it makes sense that it would take a sacrifice of life (and likely power, since saidar and saidin are what helps the Wheel to turn) in order to patch the damage when the damage is too great.

But I don't buy Egwene coming up with that weave on the fly. The weave is about Healing, which is something she stinks at. If Nynaeve had set her on the path to thinking about it, using the exmple I indicated, it would've made a hell of a lot more sense and wouldn't have seemed like some Mary Sue bullsh!te to try to ram down our throats, yet again, how utterly perfect, awesome, and unbeatable Egwene is.

We are told in CoT17 that cuendillar is made by weaving Earth, Air and Fire onto iron. We also know that weaves (at least Gateway weaves) can be unpicked, though it's dangerous. Could the cuendillar weave also be unpicked?

Wouldn't that require that the weave is still active ? If it was a one-shot (as it seems to be), then you couldn't unweave it.Plus , the material's own nature kinda throws a wedge into that plan.

A Warder bond is not an "active" weave (from what we've seen, the weaves settles on the person and disappears) yet it can be removed, according to RJ himself. My guess with cuendillar, as well as with the Warder bond, is that it takes a special sort of Delving weave to find it, then it must be unraveled. Given that Nynaeve and Damer both seem to have an awesome talent for Delving, I would bet that they could find a way to destroy cuendillar given a bit of time.

another one who won't read! not that I blame them at least when it comes to this thread. no lapenque like I said, you should accept my failures to capitalize and punctuate because they are intentional (.....and clearly indicative of an artistry / genius superior beyond the scope of any mere human comprehension. so far beyond in fact as to seem not like that at all, to the untrained eye) and also not nearly as embarrassing and glaring as the typos in WoT, which once again are painfully obviously UNintentional. I'm glad you've chosen proper punctuation etc as your way (you haven't) but to me it's a waste of time

 

ninja'ed! (or something)

 

you a hipster or something? (and i use that term as mockery. though ironically, i don't mean to offend.)

Maybe he thinks he's ee cummings. I had one of those in a WoT RPG I run. He knew how to punctuate and use proper grammar (I saw that much in other things he had written). He simply chose not to do so in our group. At first, it annoyed me. Then I started making fun of him for it and nicknamed him "ee cummings".