Flaming son of a bloody goat!  I have had no internet for weeks!  Moving on a budget sucks.

Anyway, I have a place I can get internet and log on.  I apologize for my very long absence.  I'll see if I can get back with the program.

Visar was relieved to hear Tywin talk; he'd be ok. The lad was made of tough stuff. Visar listened for the most part, sipping at his own wine. It was good to be out of the cold. Visar considered the move.

"It's an old folk wrestling trick, older than Hawkwing i'm sure, though nobody teaches those anymore. If someone's bearing down on you, using their own momentum against them is often the best thing, especially for smaller men like us. And of course, there are counters to just about everything, but the counter to this one is, at best, rather messy. Dangerous to practice, and it leaves you on the ground and vulnerable anyway. Best advice: don't charge someone like a buffalo," he said with a smile and a pat on Tywin's back.

"Well you look like you're picking up everything just fine; keep practicing and allow yourself to take it easy when you can, it's too easy to burn out with this training. Let's head back once we're finished. We'll resume tomorrow, only this time i want you to focus on defense. I'll be the hunter for a while," Visar had a feeling that was going to be fun.

Argh i think july and august have kicked my butt :p moving to another town in less than a month and the planning for that has dominated my brainspace.

Visar stood, and cursed to himself; the water was cold enough for anyone to catch a chill, and he may have just sent a trainee straight for te river! He went closer, his mind racing to remember the next few exits where he might pull Tywin out. He was relieved to see that Tywin had not been swept away; if it was in spring with the water level higher, he most certainly would have.

Visar went over to help, though the drenched trainee got out entirely by himself. Visar handed him the knives he had dropped, and was glad the trainee didn't choose that timing for a cheap shot. He helped him to his feet and unclasped his cloak from his back. Tywin stood, seemingly waiting for what the lesson was, but Visar had other priorities first. His pupil was learning a lot and probably needed some encouragmement.

"Almost got me, that was close," he said with a somewhat tight grin. Visar left the fact that he had almost endangered the other man's life unsaid. He couldn't talk about it then. Better for the trainee to think everything had been under control. "Come with me, let's get you warm and dry. We can talk later. First thing is to make sure you're well. Training will resume only when you're feeling better."

Ignoring the fact that tywin's pride might make him protest, Visar put his cloak on Tywin so he had something between his wet clothes and the river breeze which could cut like a knife, and guided him back to the nearest inn. There he sent a messenger boy, or a stable boy he paid generously for the task, back to the Tower to get some dry clothes. In the meantime, Visar ordered dinner and hot mulled wine for the two of them.

"We can stay the night here if you wish. It's not getting any warmer out there, and it's a long walk back. How are you feeling?" Visar asked as they were given their food and drink. He had a feeling criticism would be very poorly timed right now; if Tywin was anything like Visar had beem when he started training, he knew that most of them were their own worst critics. Visar had only within the last year gone easier on himself in that regard, but it was a hard habit to break.

He sat and listened to Tywin talk, offering feedback when needed.

Visar ran down an alley, even though his survival instincts told him to keep going. It was too cold for a long extended run anyway, and most people running from death would panic at one point or another. He heard a faint sound behind him, kept going. Tywin would be in hot pursuit, the young man was determined and clever enough to track him. He was fast, too!

Visar still had some tricks up his sleeve, however. He knew this area well; for most people this would be a dead end, but he knew of an escape. The drainage tunnel, which led into the sewer labrynth, had a sizeable opening that was hard to see in the dimlit street. It was large enough for a man to jump into, as long as he didn't mind getting wet. But this time of year, the water would be dangerously cold, and that was hardly something Visar wanted to go through. There were a few openings along the sewer line to get out of.

Was it worth the risk? Visar had no time to decide as Tywin rushed at him from behind. Visar reacted on instinct, turning and deflecting the blade. Even so, he felt a light impact; if it were sharp he would have been wounded, but likely would have lived. He turned, twisting his hand to grip Tywin's wrist. Another blur of motion, and Visar thanked his luck he had only engaged one hand to the fight. The clever trainee had two knives! Visar grinned and deflected the other one and grabbing the weapon arm.

They froze for half a moment, discovering they were both in a bind: Tywin was struggling to get his arms free and hit Visar; Visar was trying to control Tywin's arms. They strugled like wrestlers for a few moments, trying to read what the other was doing by feel alone, since it was too dark to see. Visar's arms were likely getting 'cut' by the knives but in the heat of the fight he couldn't tell. Then Visar felt Tywin push him. Instead of pushing back, Against the real threat, Visar did the unexpected and pulled, dropping his weight at the same time as if sitting down sharply. Pulling Tywin over him, Visar kicked out with both feet as he rolled, hurling the trainee backwards over him in a stomach throw, aiming straight for the sewer opening, its dark, freezing waters rushing by.

-Visar, care for some hypothermia? :p

Posted :) to the streets!

(Ooc: no worries this should be fun!)

It was another night of the game. After a botched first attempt, Tywin had slowed down his approach, and apparently was trying to network among many of the inns and taverns Visar frequented. Visar, with his short stature and dark skin, normally stood out in the xity, but with the cold winds blowing incessantly from the north, it was easier to hide in the streets during the day. Which meant that when he went inside at night to try to stay warm--Visar loved many things about Tar Valon but its harsh winters were not one of them---the plucky trainee was sometimes not far behind.

Lost in thoght again, Visar did not notice Tywin coming in, but he did get suspicious when he heard artificial sounding laughter from one of the barkeeps. His first thought was that someone needed a speaking to about how to treat a woman; and then he recognized Tywin's form. He quickly glanced away. He had found him already, but with the crowd--Visar wasn't the only one trying to stay warm--it woukd be difficult for Tywin to get to him.

That gave him time to think and time to finish his cider. Then, slowly, he put the money down on tye table, and got up to leave. Once he was out the door, Visar began to run through the streets, going for the safety of dark alleyways to hide. Exactly how a hunted man would behave; to try to ecape first, and act in fear. Inwardly Visar wondered how Tywin would handle this, as before he had tried to attack him openly with a whole inn watching. They hadn't known it was just for training; that had been tricky to get out of. Tonight it was a brand new scenario.

-Visar, running from the 'assassin'

Ok, just figured i'd set the stage and then let you both have at it;) let me know if anything needs to be edited. Posted , thanks for waiting guys!

Visar frowned, lost in thought next to a training weapon rack. He was interrupted from his random reverie by someone right behind him, whom he had not noticed sneak uo behind him. Concealing his annoyance that he was letting his guard down, he turned around.

"Master Kynwric? I was instructed to come see you."

Visar blinked for a moment, now confused. He shook his head, finding the situation strangely awkward but also not a little humorous.

"Master Kynwric? No, I'm Visar Falmaien, but i'm flattered you confused me with him," he said with a smile. "I trained under him myself; you could not ask for a better teacher. Now where was he..." He scanned the yards for Kynwric, and soon found him, sparring with another warder. The warder was having trouble and was already winded. Sword and shield was a tiring fight, and required patience that this warder, and Visar too, rarely possesed. Visar walked the trainee over.

"Come with me trainee, and i'll show you to master Kynwric. It appears as if he's just finishing up with his last victim," visar observed.sure enough, Kynwric thrashed the other warder to the ground with a decisive shield bash. The man went shakily to his feet, bowed to the blademaster, and then limped off to the infirmary to tend to his many wounds. Kynwric looked over at them, cam

Visar grimaced, and the wince turned into one of sympathy to the trainee. Visar knew Kynwric to be an excellent teacher, and always in control--Visar had never been seriously injured fighting him--, but that almost made him more frightening to fight. That said, he was one of the best. Whoever this trainee was, he probably already showed potential if he was requested personally by Kynwric.

"The Light preserve you, lad," Visar whispered. "Kynwric Gaiden, this trainee here at your request. Goood luck trainee," he said louder and with what he hoped was a more reassuring smile. He turned and walked away, trying to remember what he had been thinking of earlier.

-Visar, one post siliness :p

I had an idea for a visar one post but wanted to check with both of you first :) lewin left it unclear whether he's talking to kyn or who he thinks is kyn :p anyway, if you'd like me to post that i'll just pass him along to kynwric, otherwise i'll catch ya in another thread.

Visar frowned as she offered him a very strong smelling drink. What a strange name; it was surely foreign, but was it from Shara or the Waste? He looked atthe glass with a mix of curiosity and anxiety. He hazarded a sip, and shuddered as it burned down his throat. Yet though it tasted horribly like dry wood and campfire smoke, it warmed his insides in a strangely comforting way. He looked at the new Master at Arma with newfound respect, to be able to handle such a potent drink with such calm.

He thought more to the matter at hand, their spar. It should require a display of skill, and be a fair fight, regardless of her advice to name something to his advantage. What would be the fun in that?

"Best seven of thirteen exchanges," Visar suggested, giving them plenty of time to gauge their skills and remove chance a little from the equation. It would also require considerable endurance. "Each exchange ends only with a clear hit to the victor, without a double kill or afterblow. Othereise we reset without a 'dirty' exchange counting." That would require both fighters to fight properly; Visar remembered his spar for his heron-mark sword went quite differently, turning into a brawl with plenty of cheap shots and double hits. "Blunt steel, weapon of choice," he added, having no desire for the contest to end accidentally in a death or maiming injury; the Yards needed them both intact at the end. "Penalty of one hundred silver marks for injuring the opponent so that they cannot continue," that would provide him incentive to control his hits, if indeed any of his connected. They would continue shortnof a serious injury though, mainly out of pride.

All in all, he felt as he sipped the "ooskway", he was probably dooming himself to be humiliated in public. But a clean, technical fight was just what he needed for the challenge, for that was where skill and mastery could be determined. And it took courage to fight a master on terms that were more favorable for a veteran. And with two blademasters, it would look incredible to those watching, which would hopefully accomplish Kilrin's desire for providing a good example.

"Are these terms acceptable to you?" He asked after a sip, trying to remain calm. Light, what was he thinking?

Visar listened to Tywin's misgivings about his assignment, and while part of him had the urge to laugh at the lad, he thought of how that might come across, and satisfied himself with a warm smile. Tywin was afraid, but that did not make him a coward; it just meant he had normal feelings and emotions.

"Tywin, the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, but i cannot help believe we have command over the choices we do have. I cannot say what your path will be, that will be for you to find for yourself. I am not training you to become an assassin. I am training you to defend, protect against, and defeat darkfriends and other villains, assassins or merely armed thugs. Anyone, even children and women,have knives on them, and can kill even the finest warrior if they are caught off guard. You have to be alert and prepared for anything if you're to serve a Aes Sedai as a Warder, and learn how to see threats, how to avoid fights when possible. And to do that, you must understand your enemy, and learn how to think like him. Stealth, caution, good timing, discretion, cunning: you will need all these things, and it is up to you how to know when to use these skills; for the wellbeing of others or to harm them for your own gain."

Visar paused for a while, deep in thought about morality, his choice to become a Warder, and whether or not he was making a good impression on this warrior. He allowed Tywin to respond, then continued

"Every day we train from here on, i will teach you through drills and sparring how to use a dagger or knife, and how to defend with or without one. When you are done with your structured training, feel free to seek me out here or in town and we can play our hunting game, for as long as you find use in the experience. If you feel like it's wrong for you, then you can stop; I won't force you to do something that your heart says is wrong. What do you say?" Visar asked, inwardly eager for the challenge himself.

Then the game is on! Hope you don't mind my typos my touchpad is hard to type on lol

Have fun with this, if you nee to put visar anywhere or have him do something, feel free i trust ya :p

Visar nodded at his question, and almost relaxed too much, as the trainee sprang a surprise attack. This one was bold and learned quickly: good!

Visar'a training was to always focus on the hand holding the knife, and if he could not see the hand, he assumed there might be a weapon concealed. The attack came, and clevely, as Tywin punched out just as Visar deflected the thrust and grabbed a hold of the arm. Visar brought his hand up palm out to stop the punch, then decided not to block and went for the knife instead. He had a feelong Tywing would be surprised his punch landed. Visar felt himself grin even as he absorbed the pain by rolling his head back a little. His muscle memory did not fail to do the rest.

Two seconds later he had disarmed Tywin again, stolen the knife, and struck twice, once to slice Tywin's wrist of his extended arm, and twice to stab him in the gut.

Visar stretched his jaw; it stung from the punch, but it had not distracted him from the real threat, and if these had been sharp

"A fine move, but it does not follow the most imortant rule: always seek control of the knife, whether it's in your hands or an enemy's. Seek control first, either by keeping me from stabbing or cutting you repeatedly, then you can do whatever followup move you like. Now, there are smart knifemen, and i already count you among that number, who will figure out how to conceal the blade they need for the occasion, ambush you without warning, and feint or hit you with their offhand leading. Even I have no perfect defense against an assassin, despite years of training. You have no guarantee of survival, and make no mistake, if you are attacked with a knife, you will probably get cut."

Visar paused for a moment, letting that sink in, then casually pulled his own training knife from where it was hidden under his shirt, and gave Tywin a low thrust to defend against. This time the trainee caught on and defended. Visar showed him how to take the knife from his grip, even though it was strong, and they established a drill; they would share a knife, and whoever held the blade was the attacker, and whoever did not was to defend and then take the blade. Visar conversed casually as he did this; he had done this drill so many times he could probably do it in his sleep. It was good to learn the basics.

"Fortunately for you and me, there are a lot of wool-brained idiots out there who will give you ample warning and a predictable attack; when someone is angry and wants to kill you with a knife, they will do so without subtlety. You will learn how to defend against this, and there will be many drills like this, and many more bruises for each mistake, each failure to defend yourself and gain control."

visar could feel Tywin already testing him, trying to figure out how to counter the counters without knowing the basics first. Visar called a halt,thinking of another strategy.

"We could drill for hours and months, and we will so you can learn the techniques. But only you can learn how to apply them. I want, in additin to our regular sessions, for you to take an assignment. Think of it like a game of tag of you will. You may use any training knife so long as it is dull enough. Your task: to 'kill' me when i'm out and about the city or the grounds. Only the yards themelves are exempt. During this time you will have a pass from me to see the city. You are to use your street smarts, find me, and get me with that training knife however you can. Then when you succeed, we switch places, and you have to defend yourself. You may run if i give you an out, and i will as well if you let me."

Visar quickly scrawled a note which would give Tywin a pass into the city for 'training purposes', and handed it to him.

"You begin whenever you feel ready," Visar said with a smile.

I'm avalable for some stuff as well:

Visar is my warder, he's a blademaster, and is also good with unarmed, dagger, and staff/spear.

Torvus is a TG character, he is good at horsemanship, archery, and outdrinking people twice his size ;)

I'm ok to help with whatever as well though i know Kynwric has first dibs lol.

(Secretly passes around the illuminator's fireworks) :p nope no pyromaniacs here

I have a feeling the tavernkeeper will come back wit kilrin as his reinforcements :) and the laughter in the room curdles tye second she walks in LoL

(Ooc: you're doing just fine, nothing too complicated about knifework; hopefully my responses are not too moddy, if they are i will cyange them; just let me know what you want to do/done)

Visar took note of the young man's stance. He was of similar height but wiry thin, about the build Visar had been when he was just starting as a trainee; he had widened out a bit since then. This man was going to be a challenge, as he already looked like he had seen a few knife fights, and he had the perfect build for a daggerman. Now to gauge his skill..

Visar observed that there was nothing wrong with Tywin's stance, the left arm could cover if need be and the right would fight; it was balanced for defense and offense. He saw hesitation in the man's attack though, as if he was unsure whether to commit his strike or feint. Visar took well advantage of that, as he had plenty of time to react to try something fancy.

He shifted his upper body to the side, slapping in his hand to deflect Tywin's wrist, and the dagger connected to it, harmlessly to the side. In the same motion, Visar obtained a vice-like grip on the lad's wrist with his left hand, and using his other hand to grab the blade, he wrenched it out of Tywin's grip with a well-practiced twisting motion. As long as the blade didn't slide on his hand, Visar knew, he would not likely be cut at all, or at worst just a small scratch.

Visar did not wait for any reaction from Tywin, who was likely surprised to be disarmed so easily, and instantly flowed to tye next technique; the fight wasn't over once you disarmed someone. He kept the dagger in his right hand, and twisting Tywin's wrist again, he ducked under the now outstretched arm to Tywin's right to avoid a kick or punch. He undercut Tywin with his shoulder, causing the yong man to lift slightly off the ground. Visar stepped with his right foot to behind Tywin's knee, and kicked up with his heel while twisting his upper body to the left. The combined motion landed Tywin unceremoniously on his back.

Visar was still not done, as he still had a strong hold on the offending wrist. Twisting it again for good measure, Visar sank his knee on Tywin's arm to pin it, shifted the knife so that he held it properly by the hilt, and stabbed down to hit Tywin in the chest. The whole sequence took less than three seconds.

"And you are dead," Visar announced gravely before helping Tywin back up to his feet. He explained Tywin's actions; all of them good, but could be tweaked to be more dangerous. He smiled warmly and disarmingly. "A good attack, Tywin, but I saw it coming a hundred paces away. Most knife attacks, you don't see the knife before it strikes for you. Your stance was more defensive and your attack slower because it did not have your full strength behind it."

While he was expaining, Visar subtly shifted the training knife behind his back, as he moved slowly closer to Tywin. You had to be close, the closer the better, to give your victim less time to react.

"Come, i'll show you what I--" Visar put his hand on Tywin's shoulder, as if he was letting him in on a good secret. Then without warning, he shoved Tywin's shoulder to expose his side and get him off balance, and rammed the training blade towards his lower side before he was finished speaking.

"Mean," Visar finished grimly.

-Visar, being mean :p

Welcome Andrej!

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/82911-grappling-with-the-knife-atn-tywin/?p=2953845

Thread up, and take your time :)

I'm thinking of having a little game of assassin to try to train Tywin in the mindset of a knife attacker, that is sneak up, ambush, and wail on someone. You know, the way it's done on the streets/in prison. Say, following Visar around town and try to sneak up and get a hit, using any dirty trick he can think of to get close enough.

Then he's gotta defend himself from Visar chasing/stalking him (he'll get a city pass for training and coins for a few nights on the town), might make this more fun than just drills, and throw in some stealth and city survival training :)

Let me know what you think of that idea, and we can take the thread wherever you'd like to take it :)

As part of the program Master Kilrin had decided on to boost morale and improve training, Visar had a few trainees and guards he was goong to coach. Group classes were more efficient to train a large group of people, but the dropout rate was extreme, and the Guard needed more members. It was either change the way you trained, or lower the standards, and neither Visar nor Kilrin would have the latter spoken about with broken teeth to the offender. If they were lucky.

Instead, the weed out started right away; if trainees could not pass the fitness courses, which under Kilrin's supervision had become a real gauntlet of pain and misery, they usually went home on their own, and that freed up guardsmen and warders to teach those that had already survived their firstnfew weeks.

Visar glanced at his list, a much crumpled up piece of paper that was becoming more difficult to read. He had to help three trainees with the sword, two others with staff or spear, and only one that was interested in the dagger. How strange, that with a weapon warders wouls face more than any other, and had killed many of Visar's friends when he was growing up in Tear, that so few warders trained to use or defend against? It didn't make sense. But then again, the bruises, dislocated joints, and broken bones, not to mention the frequent humiliation of being tossed onto the ground over and over again. . .it certainly was not as dignified and heroic as the sword or the bow.

He finished giving the other trainees their preparatory assignments, and that left the last, and hopefully best, trainee for last. He circled the training yard casually, not knowing who "tie-win" was. Finally he gave up guessing who it was and realized he was putting things off again. Not much for it but to shout,

"Trainee Tywin! You get your bloody Warty behind over here this instance!" He yelled in the angriest voice he could muster. It was always easy to get angry about something. Taking it out on trainees was cathartic, even if Visar felt a little guilty for making these poor lads and girls' lives any worse. He knew how hard it was, and he suspected things were easier with the previous Master at Arms around.

A young man, already sweating from his morning's exercises, ran up, looking somewhat bewildered. He presented himself bravely.

"Trainee, you may call me Visar Gaiden. I'm to instruct you in some knife work. First, i need to see what you already know. Try to kill me."

Visar tossed a blunt metal training knife, the blade almost as long as a forearm, at Tywin's feet. It was thick and bulky, and made deep purple bruises when it found its mark, but was enough like a real knife to train realistically without risk of lethal injury. Visar cupped his hands at his breast, a good position to defend against any attack but not appear very defensive, and waited unarmed, a silent challenge.

-Visar Falmaien, come on show me what you got :)

So, speaking of knives, would you like to start a thread w/ Tywin w some one on one knife training? Visar can help you out with that, just let me know when and where.

Kynwric,

Messers are 'legally' knives, even though there are two handed war knives (kriegsmesser, which is what WoTers are using, :p) that are basically single edged (often w a false edge) swords.

The thing is, messers and falchions (sometimes to two terms are interchangeable, falchions tend to be french and more sword-like, messers are german and more knife-like) are constructed more like knives in cross section and hilt set up (looks more like a wooden knife handle), and they tended to be blade heavy, unlike the double edged swords of the time which were more hilt heavy, and were more challenging to produce (a knifesmit can make a long knife, onl a swordsmith can handle a sword)

Also, cities back then had weapon laws comparable to Tear or Far Madding: not everyone could carry swords around. So lower/middle class of the time, mainly tye artisan class in the towns, got around that by saying when they were 'pulled over'

"Umm, no officer, this is a knife, see the hilt? >_> i need it to umm, butcher meat, yeah that's where i was off to"

I don't know how well that worked but it was worth a try :p

So, there are more reasons than blade length for what to call a sharp metal object.

And maurelle, they didn't generally dual wield short swords/long knives of the same length. More awkward with none of te benefits of using a complimentary weapon like a dagger or sheild. Though do check double dao forms in chinese sword systems, and wakisashi/katana pairing for inspiration. People did it, but it wasn't common (at least not in europe, others might know more about asian styles); much harder to learn wothout getting yourself maimed or killed. And i think there is double rapier somewhere lol but that kind of thing is rare.

Ok i am back, knock on wood >.>

Visar nodded and listened as Kathleen spoke. She didn't trust him, but that was to be expected. And he did deserve her anger, so he resolved to try to do better, and do what he could to heal tye damage he had done. He wished the Aes Sedai good night and returned to his guest bed. He was asleep in moments.

The next day started bright and early, and Visar felt like a new man. He was still nervous about ruining things, but if he was patient, laid low for a while, and earned their trust again, if possible, things might be better on the journey back.

He joined the delegation as they went to a meeting with the new Lord Hargrave. The council chamber was well guarded, fortified, and all the mess from the other day was already cleaned up. Visar looked at the young man, seeing in him a strength of character he rarely saw in warders. He was impressed that a young man who had just lost his father could be holding up so well. Leadership was natural to him, Visar supposed, yet in the man's strength he saw vulnerability too, and emotions difficult to conceal.

Visar wondered if there was something he could learn from this brave young man. He gave the lord a respectful salute and a "good morning, lord Hargrave," as he went to take his station behind the seated Aes Sedai.

-Visar, laying low