Nope.

Mat "I am no bloody Lord" Cauthon is a run into the fire to save a baby kind of guy. Whether he wants to be or not.

Mat is a bloody hero who really doesnt want to be, he just cant help himself.

Mat is certainly more charismatic than Perrin which is good for a leader. But Perrin is more of a thinker than Mat which is also a good trait in a leader.

And for the most part we are argueing apples to apples between this two, and those apples are leading people into battle. Mat certainly has the upperhand here due to the memories he was given.

Perrin does not have these memories yet he does quite well when put in the position using just the wits he has. The plan for Malden was excellent.

These are the character stories they were given.

Mat is the fun loving heroic fool.

Perrin is the moody deep thinker.

Rand is the tortured soul.

Its easy to like Mat more than Perrin or Rand. Through the entire story he is the more likeable character. He doesnt have dark moods that he other two do. Even when things are going bad for him he takes things as they come and makes the best of them.

If i were given the opportunity to hang out with any of the three it would be Mat every time.

And sorry for jumping in there on the last one, i must have read your post wrong. I know that you are acknowledging Perrin's accomplishments, you just see Mat's as more important.

I think in the overall scheme of things they are pretty close.Rand would be hosed without either of them.

It is clear Mat will be leading Rand's armies, i am not sure what Perrin's main job will be yet.

I dont think anyone is arguing that Mat isnt a better tactician and strategist than Perrin is.

He has a little help though.

Mat knows how a seige is going to go because he has been through 100s of them, on both sides.

He knows how to set up a battlefield because he has been through 100s of battles, both as high ranking and as grunt force.

Bashere is one of the Great Captains and he is astonded by Mat's abilities to set up a force.

These are gifts that were given to him, not things that he is just good at.

Hardly fair to put the two of them against each other in that.

I think that 1 on 1 Mat would beat Perrin in a fight if they had to, i think just strait 1 on 1 combat he would beat most.

But in Tel'aran'rhiod Perrin would own Mat. That is a talent he has. Perhaps they could compete in a "talking to wolves" competition.

Mat being a better General than Perrin does not mean that he has accomplished more. Which perhaps he has, but Perrins accomplishments are no small potatoes.

And yes, all the accomplishments do count for Perrin, even if he was single minded in his need to rescue his wife. They happened, they count.

Most of Mat's stuff he didnt plan. It just happened whether he wanted it or not. Much like his early battle victories, he was trying to run away from the fighting but his "Luck" seemed to put him in a position where he would was forced to fight, and win.

Wasnt it completely determined that Silvie was Lanfear.

I could be mistaken but i thought Lanfear revealed that herself.

And i know the WOT Wiki is not completely accurate but it also states Silvie was Lanfear.

Fine, your right.

Mat did accomplish more than Perrin. Which is fine by me, Mat is my favorite character.

 

And Perrin did go through his personnal growth slower than Mat but the whole freaking story talks about how Perrin gets to things slower than most people from day one. Should have come as no surprise that Leadership would have come slower as well.

 

Touche! I never looked at it from that angle. I'l have to concede that point to you fully.

 

Perrin taking his time to accept his leadership role is a minor issue. The really big issue with him is his moral decay during Faile's kidnapping. He was willing to enslave Shaido Wise Ones for life to save Faile (200 Wise Ones were collared); which by the way gives the Seanchan a formidable group of battle channelers not bound by the 3 oaths. And he used the resources allocated to him to save Faile, using others to do and getting them killed to achieve his personal thingie.

 

Worst of all is how he just lost it when Faile was captured. One of the Wise Ones with him told him to get a grip on himself and quit acting like a fool. But he was so shell-shocked and out of it, not bathing for days, acting obsessively about the issue. He was the epitome of a failed leader. He pretty much forgot about his followers and only thought of them as tools to rescue Faile. He didn't even have the decency to give Aes Sedai permission to try and help the people of So Harbor when he could afford to let them stay for a few hours.

This one with the wise ones again.

What would you have him do, storm the city when they have 200 wise ones that are more than willing to blow you to hell?

He needed the Seachans help to take out the Shaido, he needed to forkroot to take out the channelers. His options at that point were to allow them to be collared, kill them while they cant channel or let them go and when the forkroot wears off they are going to be really ticked off.

He made the correct choice in my eyes.

It helps that i have the knowledge of the story and i know that Seachan will be on the side of light for the last battle.

Not much i can say about So Habor. Could he have let the Aes Sedai stay and try to help, probably. Do i think they would have been able to help, no. So it probably doesnt matter.

After the whole faile captured arc is over we hear numerous times how his people felt he was being a good leader during the captured time frame and that he kept them together. This is coming from those he commands.

Did he go over dramatic when his wife was captured, again, sure, but i cant fault him too much for that. Him saying that he would "Give up everything to save Faile" is different than actually giving up everything to save Faile. We dont know that he would have actually "World be Damned" it, and i dont think he would have.

And the point to his army being used for the personnal agenda, well guess what, that is every army that ever existed.

Fine, your right.

Mat did accomplish more than Perrin. Which is fine by me, Mat is my favorite character.

And Perrin did go through his personnal growth slower than Mat but the whole freaking story talks about how Perrin gets to things slower than most people from day one. Should have come as no surprise that Leadership would have come slower as well.

Decimating the Shaido is pretty important.

Helping rediscover Power forged weapons is pretty important.

Saving Egwenes butt by bringing the dream spike to Tar Valon was pretty important (Granted that wasnt on purpose)

Foiling all of Greandal's plans, who knows what is left of her, was pretty important.

Bringing Gealden to Rand is pretty important.

Bringing the White Cloaks to Rand is pretty important.

Saving the two rivers was pretty important. Who knows what completely losing that place plus his father would have done to Rand. He wasnt exactly stable about then.

Dumai Wells pretty important.

Mat did do some fantastic things, perhaps even more when you add up The bowl, Tuon, Moiraine, Dragons and killing a Gholam put Mat in the lead but it isnt like Perrin was just mooning over Faile the entire time.

This is starting to get crazy.

At the start of the series Perrin (and the other wonderboys) are all of 20 years old. And not the 20 years old of nowdays either, these are extrememly rural farm boys with not alot of education.

He is pulled from the only home he has ever known. Forced into a war with creatures he didnt think actually exist. His best friend is the Dragon Reborn.

And that weired itch in the back of your head is wolves trying to talk to you, because oh ya, you can talk to wolves.

Suck on that 20 year old.

He is thrust into battles and a leadership role not long after that. Is he great at it, no, but he gets better as time goes by. Does he want the role, no, but he excepts it as time goes by.

And this large amount of personnal growth he goes through takes place between the age of 20 and 22.

What took you so damn long farmboy?? 2 freaking years to go from a blacksmiths apprentice to a Lord of the 2 rivers and one of the Dragons battle leaders. You should be ashamed. ASHAMED.

 

Who cares if he took longer to get there than Rand and Mat. Rand and Mat had more help that he did. Rand also had more people working against him but still.

All three characters should not have come into their own all in the same time frame, this is what we call character diversity.

 

The fact that he led the two rivers farmers against tens of thousands of Trollics and won, at the ripe age of 21, but didnt do it perfectly so people died is getting nitpicked is pretty sad.

The fact that it is then stated that a whole year later he led another group (of far better trained soldiers) against a larger force of Trollics and didnt lose anyone proves that he learned pretty damn fast to me.

And I am not sure he didnt lose anyone saving the White Cloaks, i dont remember it saying that but it is possible.

 

I'm fairly certain it was said. He lost none them.

 

Yes it's a lot of growing up to do, but it doesn't change the fact that he resisted as long as possible. As to the farmboy comments, eh, people go thru crap everyday, even in RL. People have their beliefs and foundations rocked and are forced to adapt. That's what picks out the winners from the losers, the strong from the weak, the ability and willingness to adpat and succeed. (They were 20 when this started? I pictured them more like 17).

 

Also, Sanderson later said it wasn't tens of thousands in TR. (I know made no sense right, that's how it seemed to me too).

 

That being said, yes 2 freaking years to adapt to something you can't change is too damn long in my opinion. Somethings just need to be accepted and dealt with. Buck up chum and carry on. Don't complian and moan.

I read the tens of thousands on another site, im not sure how many but it was alot.

And i cant agree with you on the last. I feel 2 years is a fine about of time to go from essentially a child to Commander of an army and leading them to what may very well be the end of the world.

And again, i would contest that in the two years Perrin has gotten more accomplished for the side of the light than Mat has. He may have whinned about it for a fair portion of the time he was getting stuff done but he got stuff done.

This is starting to get crazy.

At the start of the series Perrin (and the other wonderboys) are all of 20 years old. And not the 20 years old of nowdays either, these are extrememly rural farm boys with not alot of education.

He is pulled from the only home he has ever known. Forced into a war with creatures he didnt think actually exist. His best friend is the Dragon Reborn.

And that weired itch in the back of your head is wolves trying to talk to you, because oh ya, you can talk to wolves.

Suck on that 20 year old.

He is thrust into battles and a leadership role not long after that. Is he great at it, no, but he gets better as time goes by. Does he want the role, no, but he excepts it as time goes by.

And this large amount of personnal growth he goes through takes place between the age of 20 and 22.

What took you so damn long farmboy?? 2 freaking years to go from a blacksmiths apprentice to a Lord of the 2 rivers and one of the Dragons battle leaders. You should be ashamed. ASHAMED.

Who cares if he took longer to get there than Rand and Mat. Rand and Mat had more help that he did. Rand also had more people working against him but still.

All three characters should not have come into their own all in the same time frame, this is what we call character diversity.

The fact that he led the two rivers farmers against tens of thousands of Trollics and won, at the ripe age of 21, but didnt do it perfectly so people died is getting nitpicked is pretty sad.

The fact that it is then stated that a whole year later he led another group (of far better trained soldiers) against a larger force of Trollics and didnt lose anyone proves that he learned pretty damn fast to me.

And I am not sure he didnt lose anyone saving the White Cloaks, i dont remember it saying that but it is possible.

It seems Mr. Ares that we have had different experiences in our time.

Perhaps i should change "Dont want" to "Hesitant".

Either way, Perrin turned it around and he is once again a great character!

Someone earlier in the topic actually seemed to blame Perrin because his story arc took too long to finish. I didnt realise he wrote that part.

I disagree that he shys away from responsibility.

He doesnt want the responsibility and leadership, he tends to steer straight towards it, but he doesnt want it.

 

After 20+ years in the military i figured out something about leadership (plenty dont agree with me on this), if you want the best guy for the leadership job give it to the guy that doesnt want it (that is qualified of course).

The guy who wants it usually wants it for the wrong reasons.

In my experience, people who don't want responsibility are often ill suited to having it. It is only those that want responsibility that should be given it (and even then, a lot of them are unsuited).

As i said above first they must be qualified.

From my experience most of the people i have seen that really wanted a leadership role wanted it to make themselves look good, not to do the best job possible.

I have known many highly qualified people that really didnt want the job because they knew that to do it right it would be a pain in the butt.

There are those who want leadership who arent self serving but there are plenty out there that are.

Rarely you will see the guy who is reluctant to take the job be self serving while in the job.

Yet another point when comparing Perrin to the other two golden boys.

Matt has the memories and battle knowledge of hundreds of people in his head. That helps.

Rand has one of the greatest Aes Sedai to ever live in his head, though he is crazy. That helps, especially now.

Perrin has wolves in his head, that think humans are stupid. Doesnt help that much.

It also seems that you are saying that people died because of his mistakes in battle while he was leading.

Well that is true, welcome to being a leader in battle. Especially when you are all of 20 years old fighting monsters from the stories and your army consists of a bunch of farmers (for the Two Rivers).

Give the guy a break. He is a 20 year old kid who didnt want any of this and has been tossed into it head first.

Do you think none of the Band has died because Matt did something unwise.

Matt died because Rand did something unwise.

They are all kids. For the most part undereducated rural farm kids.

And i would say time wise it took Perrin probably close to the same amount of time it took the others to decide he really was a leader.

It took more books to get there but that is hardly Perrins fault.

I disagree that he shys away from responsibility.

He doesnt want the responsibility and leadership, he tends to steer straight towards it, but he doesnt want it.

 

After 20+ years in the military i figured out something about leadership (plenty dont agree with me on this), if you want the best guy for the leadership job give it to the guy that doesnt want it (that is qualified of course).

The guy who wants it usually wants it for the wrong reasons.

 

Perrin doesnt want it, but in the end if gives in because while he doesnt want it he doesnt trust that anyone else could do it better than him.

It's an old saying, the best leaders are those who have no desire to lead. It's all about power corrupting or what not.

 

But that's besides the point, he does shy away from it, and people die because of it. Yea eventually he came into it, but how much longer after Mat and Rand? Too damn long in my opinion.

I too am wondering who died because Perrin did not want to be a leader.

And for a fair portion of the book Rand was a horrible leader. I guess "Do as i say or i will Balefire you!" is a leadership technique.

And Mat is a completely different animal. He was the only one of the wonder boys who actually wanted to leave and he always put himself in the center of everything. He was born to be a leader.

 

Matt never wanted to lead. He just took control because he understood quite quickly that he was best suited to it, and if he didn't some other idiot would take over.

 

Rand is a different beast, I don't consider him a horrible leader, he just couldn't run from it like Perrin did. Actually the do this or I'll kill you is a leadership technique, and he should have stuck with it. Rand's major issue is (Which Perrin and Matt don't experience) that people say they'll follow him and behind his back do everything to kill or discredit him. He has to use force because otherwise everything would crumble. Kinda sucks for him.

 

As for who died because of Perrin, Plently of unnamed characters died due to his mistakes and unwillingness to step up. I'm thinking in the Two River's battles, and later with his Faiel kidnapping. He did pretty damn good saving Rand from the sisters, I don't think any people died because of him then, but he took command, and told people what to do (first time).

Maybe i should reread the books again (7 times doesnt seem to be enough) but i seem to recall that Perrin led the defenders of the Two Rivers and they won that battle. And people loved him so much after that they made him a Lord whether he wanted to be one or not. Did people die, yes they did, because Trollics and Fades are pretty bad ass and people die when you fight such things.

I also seem to recall Perrin leading his group to rescue Faile and they won that battle as well. Did people die, yes, because Aiel are pretty bad ass and people die when you fight them. I also recall his group being much more together and looking to him more as a leader after that battle.

You can say he did it for the wrong reason if you want, that people didnt need to die just to save Faile, but you cant say that the Shaido didnt deserve the butt woopin they got. And to give that many Aiel the butt woopin they deserve people are going to die on both sides.

I disagree that he shys away from responsibility.

He doesnt want the responsibility and leadership, he tends to steer straight towards it, but he doesnt want it.

 

After 20+ years in the military i figured out something about leadership (plenty dont agree with me on this), if you want the best guy for the leadership job give it to the guy that doesnt want it (that is qualified of course).

The guy who wants it usually wants it for the wrong reasons.

 

Perrin doesnt want it, but in the end if gives in because while he doesnt want it he doesnt trust that anyone else could do it better than him.

It's an old saying, the best leaders are those who have no desire to lead. It's all about power corrupting or what not.

 

But that's besides the point, he does shy away from it, and people die because of it. Yea eventually he came into it, but how much longer after Mat and Rand? Too damn long in my opinion.

I too am wondering who died because Perrin did not want to be a leader.

And for a fair portion of the book Rand was a horrible leader. I guess "Do as i say or i will Balefire you!" is a leadership technique.

And Mat is a completely different animal. He was the only one of the wonder boys who actually wanted to leave and he always put himself in the center of everything. He was born to be a leader.

I disagree that he shys away from responsibility.

He doesnt want the responsibility and leadership, he tends to steer straight towards it, but he doesnt want it.

After 20+ years in the military i figured out something about leadership (plenty dont agree with me on this), if you want the best guy for the leadership job give it to the guy that doesnt want it (that is qualified of course).

The guy who wants it usually wants it for the wrong reasons.

Perrin doesnt want it, but in the end if gives in because while he doesnt want it he doesnt trust that anyone else could do it better than him.

I did not love Perrins plotline with the Faile chase but it certianly didnt go no where.

In this plotline he destroyed the Shaido, Made ties to the Seanchen, Tied Ghealdan to Rand, Tied the Whitecloaks to Rand, got rid of The Prophet, rediscovered Power Wrought Weapons and probably saved Egwene and her crew by bringing the dreamspike to Tar Valon.

I would say he absolutely got a bit done.

I cant agree with most of what you are saying Vardarmus. And i think it is apparent that you dislike Perrin as a character so i doubt it matters what he would have done.

You appear to honestly be saying that killing 200ish drugged out women would have been a better option.

I cant even imagine the uproar that would have happened if Perrin would have done that in the book.

Countless people have died while Perrin ruled begrudgingly but that is what happens when you get attacked by Trollics and Aiel. You can disagree with him chasing after Faile and that getting people killed but he never forced anyone to go with him. He would have gone alone if need be. People followed him because they saw him as a good leader.

And how many people has Rand gotten killed with his foolishness? At least Perrin hasnt blown the snot out of his own troops.

And once Perrin found the prophet and saw what a wackadoodle he and his followers were the mission changed a bit. There is no way Rand would have wanted this group of crazies in his army. The Prophet knew that, which is why he refused to go through a gateway to Rand, not because he didnt trust he power. He was in no hurry whatsoever to get to Rand and answer for what he had done in his name.

So again due to Perrins poor leadership:

The Saido are no longer a threat.

The Prophet and his wackos are no longer a concern.

He has formed ties with Rands biggest non shadow pain in the butt.

He has swelled his army and will be giving Rand a very strong force for the last battle.

He played a large part in the rediscovery of making power forged weapons, which is a really big deal.

I to didnt love the "chase after Faile at all cost" story but you cant deny that when it is all said and done he got quite a bit accomplished for the greater good.

You know what i find funny? This guy was going fave to face with rand regarding the issue of aes sedai when they were captured after dumai wells. Yet he had no qualms about the seanchan enslaving 200 women in one go and treat them basically like pawns. God someone get rid of this guy already!

What did you want Perrin to do with the Shaido wise ones? Did Perrin have the ability to capture and contain 200 pissed off channelers with his army. No he did not. Should he have let them go? Now you have 200 angry channlers behind you. That kind of idea gets you killed. So that really leaves two options, Let the Seanchan have them or while they are drugged out on forkroot stick a sword in them. So option 1: Give them to the Seanchan and let them become Damane Option 2: Mass murder 200 helpless women. Which should he have chosen? I always like Perrin. I didnt love the Faile chase but i didnt loath it either. And he redeamed himself as soon as he cut the shaido's hand off.

 

Murder vs Slavery? Or better yet, an Honorable Death vs Lifetime Enslavement and treated as less than an animal

 

It's not Murder in a war, it was them against him, that would have been an honorable death on the field of battle. Instead he enslaved the lot of them. That's HORRIBLE!

Actually it is still murder in a war, which is why we have had soldiers on trial for murder for things they did during a not so far in the past war.

And since i have a wee bit of knowledge on this topic i can tell you that if a soldier captures an enemy, ties him up so he cannot move, then shoots him in the head it is murder.

Both options suck but if i were given the choice between the two i dont think i could bring myself to kill them.

And i say again, it was a bargining chip to get the Seanchens help. He needed their help so he did what he needed to to get it. Would they have helped without that bargin, maybe, but maybe not.

You dont have to like what he did but what he did saved lives on his side. That is good leadership. Leaders sometimes have to do distastfull things and i feel he chose the less of the 2 evils.

If you think being made Damane is worse than death then that is fine, your opinion. I disagree.

Egwene essentially blew up Mesaana's brain and made her a drooling on the floor pooping her pants baby forsaken.

I wouldnt say No chance.

That is immaterial. Rand gives a cr@p about Faile and he would not have allowed the wastage of military resources to save her. Perrin contradicted a direct order from the DR. In the real world that would be considered as disobeying the chain of command and would be "rewarded" with a demotion or more likely a dismissal.

Maybe. Or i could see the conversation going this way:

Perrin: Rand, i disobeyed your orders because Faile was captured by the Shaido.

Rand: Why you son of a .... I outa balefire you.

Perrin: Oh ya, and in doing so i have pretty much wiped out the Shaido, Now have a positive tie with the Seanchan and have this really big army to give to you for the last battle.

Rand: Oh, i guess were good.

Yes. Rand would not have saved Faile because Faile was not worth sacrificing hundreds of people on a useless war. Faile versus the world. I guess the world wins except for Perrin of course.

But the funny thing is, after this useless war where hundreds of people were sacrificed Perrin is going to come out of it with a larger army that is more loyal than it was before he went after Faile. He now has the respect of a sudo high ranking Seanchan officer and the Shaido are out of the picture.

Seems like alot got accomplished in this usless war of his.

It's always easy to make a big scene from a position of strength where nothing is at stake.

 

The guy was ready to go toe to toe with the dragon reborn over the aes sedai. Forgetting the fact these aes sedai kidnapped rand and beat him senseless.

 

Then with the same breath he went right ahead and handed 200 women to a life of slavery and imprisonment to save his wife. So not only is he dumb, stupid and whinges like a fisherwoman, he also has no principles whatsoever.

 

 

It doesn't really matter how much force he had compared to the shaido. His allies especially the DR has much more channellers on his side with ashaman to boot. He could travel and ferry them over. In the end it doesnt matter though. The guy is gutless and pretty much will sell the world to the DO for faile.

 

May shaidar haran take this whinger and his loony wife away from us for good.

Rand would not have helped him save Faile. He was Dark Rand at that time and if he knew what Perrin was doing he would have stopped him.

And there is a difference between the Aes Sedai and the Wiseones, besides the fact that he fight with Rand was staged.

The Aes Sedai were not enemies, wrong yes, Very wrong yes, but not enemies. The Saido are 100% enemies that would kill the lot of them without blinking an eye.

And in the long run it wont matter. Those new Damane will be helping in the last battle which they would not have been doing if the Shaide wise ones were turned loose somewhere.

What did you want Perrin to do with the Shaido wise ones?

Did Perrin have the ability to capture and contain 200 pissed off channelers with his army. No he did not.

Should he have let them go? Now you have 200 angry channlers behind you. That kind of idea gets you killed.

 

So that really leaves two options, Let the Seanchan have them or while they are drugged out on forkroot stick a sword in them.

 

So option 1: Give them to the Seanchan and let them become Damane

Option 2: Mass murder 200 helpless women.

 

Which should he have chosen?

 

I always like Perrin. I didnt love the Faile chase but i didnt loath it either.

And he redeamed himself as soon as he cut the shaido's hand off.

 

There were other possible alternatives if we're to speculate. I would divide the prisoners into 2 halves: channelers and warriors. Let the Seanchan have the warriors and non-channelers among the Shaido. And let Perrin's Wise One's handle the Shaido channelers. Notice that some Shaido Wise Ones cannot channel and can go to the Seanchan. But this is the extreme case.

 

My bargain would be to cleanse Seanchan land of Shaido and take the prisoners in exchange for Tylee's help. She can go back with the victory; but not the prisoners.

But you have to understand that Perrin needed the Seanchan to do the raid, his group was not big enough to attack that town and survive. Especially not with the amount of channelers were in the town.

I dont recall how many channelers Perrin's group has but i dont recall it being all that many. The Seanchan collared 200 women from Malden, i have to assume that they could all channel at least somewhat. That means for Perrin to take them he has to be able to shield 200 women. Perhaps he has that capability in his group but i dont think so.

After the battle Perrin aquired a large amount of refugees that he now has to care for. Hundreds of Shaido prisoners, which i would not trust to far, would be a very heavy burden to throw on his group as well.

And would the Seanchan have followed his plan if they got to take just the warriors prisoner? Aiel do not make good prisoners for wetlanders, its not the same process as being taken prisoner by another aiel.

I dont think the Seanchan would have considered it without the price that Perrin was willing to pay.

Perrin understood that he may have to fight these wise ones one day as damane but that day isnt now. Lots of things can happen between now and then, and while the plan was not without some eww factor it was a good plan.

You know what i find funny?

 

This guy was going fave to face with rand regarding the issue of aes sedai when they were captured after dumai wells.

 

Yet he had no qualms about the seanchan enslaving 200 women in one go and treat them basically like pawns. God someone get rid of this guy already!

What did you want Perrin to do with the Shaido wise ones?

Did Perrin have the ability to capture and contain 200 pissed off channelers with his army. No he did not.

Should he have let them go? Now you have 200 angry channlers behind you. That kind of idea gets you killed.

So that really leaves two options, Let the Seanchan have them or while they are drugged out on forkroot stick a sword in them.

So option 1: Give them to the Seanchan and let them become Damane

Option 2: Mass murder 200 helpless women.

Which should he have chosen?

I always like Perrin. I didnt love the Faile chase but i didnt loath it either.

And he redeamed himself as soon as he cut the shaido's hand off.

I kind of like Andor.

Perhaps Whitebridge would be a nice location for me to settle down.