Adding some quotes to a few of the passages I mentioned in my previous post, to further underline what I mean when I say that the Aiel have been beefed up, and seem like a nation of Warders (or rather a nation of Lan clones), in the beginning of the series.

The three Myrddraal stood back-to-back in the center of the room' date=' black swords in their hands. One was clutching his side as if wounded, though he gave no other sign of it. Another had a long gash down its pale face; it did not bleed. Around them circled the five veiled Aiel still alive, crouching. [..'] The Myrddraal turned with them, and their eyeless faces seemed uncertain, uneasy that the fear their gaze struck into every human heart did not seem to touch these.

 

[a little later - after the Myrddraal have been killed by the wonder girls]

 

They were tall these Aielmen, and young or old, they had that calm sureness in their eyes, that dangerous grace of motion Egwene associated with Warders; death rode on their shoulders, and they knew it was there and were not afraid.

 

[jumping a bit further]

 

"I am sorry," Elayne said in a clear voice, "that we interrupted your . . . dance. Perhaps we should not have interfered." [... Rhuarc speaks] "We could have killed them, but three shadowmen. . . . They would have killed two or three of us, certainly, perhaps all, and I cannot say we would have finished them all."

That certainly sets the Aiel, as a people - granted, we have the named characters Rhuarc and Avi here, but there are also others no-named Aiel - being as deadly as Warders, saying they could kill three Myrddraal and perhaps only take two deaths themselves.

Lets jump back to book two, and see how some borderlanders fare against a Myrddraal..

Then he came to a crossing of corridors, and to his left the tail end of a fight. Six top-knotted men lay bleeding and still, and a seventh was dying. the Myrddraal gave its sword an extra twist as it pulled the blade free of the man's belly, and the soldier screamed as he dropped his sword and fell. The Fade moved with a viperous grace, and the serpent illusion heightened by the armor of black, overlapping plates that covered its chest. It turned and that pale, eyeless face studied Rand. It started toward him, smiling a bloodless smile, not hurrying. It had no need to hurry for one man alone.

 

He felt rooted where he stood; his tongue stuck to the roof of his mouth. The look of the Eyeless is fear. That was what they said along the Border. His hands shook as he raised his sword. He never even thought of assuming the void. Light, it just killed seven armed soldiers together. Light, what am I going to do. Light!

So here, one Myrddraal kills seven Fal Dara soldiers - whom I assume fight, and train just as hard as the Aiel, if not harder, as they are fed and clothed by Lord Agelmar and don't have to worry about any of that. They are not unaccustomed to Myrddraal either, living right on the border to the Blight. I would go as far as saying that the Aiel are less accustomed to them, as the Trollocks and Myrddraal don't enter the Waste and in Bair's words, going into the Blight is something only "wild young men do, and Maidens with less sense than goats.". (tFoH - Chapter 34).

The Gray Men bit I mentioned earlier:

Dead Aielmen lay at Rand's feet' date=' tangled with the bodies of three ordinary men in very ordinary coats and breeches, Ordinary-looking men, except that six Aiel, the entire guard, had been slain. some obviously before they knew what was happening, and each of those ordinary men had at least two Aiel spears through him.[/quote']

 

So four Gray Men, the pinnacle of shadow assassins, before the introduction of the Gholam take three dead versus six Aiel.

 

Lan came to stand infront of Perrin. "How did you know them' date=' blacksmith?" he asked quietly. "Their taint of evil is not strong enough for Moiraine and me to sense. Gray Men have walked past a hundred guards without being noticed, and Warders among them."[/quote']

 

Six Aiel does feats that hundred guards, with Warders among them, have failed to do.

 

I don't have a problem with either one of these points I've made, and as I've stated several times I don't have a problem with the Aiel. All I'm saying is that Militiades' points aren't totally without merit. To take in that the majority of those points fit an entire people of "regular" humans, you have to suspend reality for a bit, and sit back and say: "Well, it is a fantasy book.".

Without putting words into Militiades' mouth - that's at least how I understood his initial post.

As to the waste, Braus, I've always envisioned it as the Arizona deserts. Hot during the day, cold during the night, little water, you have prey, and some bushes and whatnot.

What about the other points in my post Braus?

I'm not saying that they are "superhuman", but I understand where Mili is coming from. They're beefed up because RJ wanted them to be - I don't have a problem with that, but it is a strech that there could be a people like that in the real world.

Second attempt to post, managed to write a loong one, that got eaten up! :(

I didn't mean Gaul was not an exceptional fighter' date=' I meant not for an Aiel. Never is he hailed as being one of the Aiel's great heroes, it seems he's just the run of the mill Aiel (which means he's roughly as good as the 5 or 10 best fighters in the entire wetlands). My point was that all the Aiel seem able to do things like that, it just isnt a big deal.[/quote']

 

Quite the opposite.  We are told that Gaul is basically next in line to be sent to Rhuidian to become Clan Chief.  I would say this puts him pretty high up on the list of exceptional fighters.

 

This is not correct. Couladin was described as a very good warrior on several occations in the book, but he was refused entry to Rhuidan. I think the wise ones look for wisdom and leadership, rather than battle prowess when they send someone to Rhuidan.

 

Humans cannot sprint faster than a horse' date=' but they can outrun it over long distances. The world record for 100 kilometers (for men) is ~10 miles per hour on average for a little over six hours (6:13:33, to be exact).[/quote']

 

Yeah, but what does this guy look like? I posted earlier about Haile Gebrselassie, one of the all time great long distance runners on earth. He looks like this:

 

Hardly how the Aiel are described, being tall and buff. Bruan is said to be as big as TWO blacksmiths.

 

Forget all the horse vs. foot arguments for a moment and look at it as a whole:

 

1. Exceptional runners.

2. Exceptional climbers.

3. Exceptional spear fighters.

4. Exceptional tacticians.

5. Ninja like hand-to-hand combat skills.

6. Most of them seem to be smart, save the "evil shaido" and there only the high end leaders seem to have faults (whilst the wetlanders are riddle with the 'disease' of being stupid, ignorant, or even down right dumb).

7. They are litterally a million people (if not more), whom all seem to know how to use a spear. How do they manage sustain themselves in the waste, if it is so arid, when they spend time doing calorie buring training?

8. Exceptional at adapting to their surroundings, even "inventing" snowshoes at one point.

9. Death doesn't seem to give them a pause at all - only time we've seen them broken is at Dumais, which was just a huge meat grinder.

10. All the guys, cept for Han, seem to be ~7 feet tall and well muscled.

 

Heck, even six no-name Maidens managed to kill several Grey men (allowing only one to make it into Rand's chamber). Lan said in TDR that Grey men managed to slip past guards, Aes Sedai and Warders to make it within striking range to the Amyrlin once. Not to mention that they don't really seem affected by the gaze of a Myrdraal, and the Myrdraal seemed afraid of them (from TDR - when Rhuarc and four others try to save the girls from THREE Myrdraal).

 

That's why, I at least, think RJ toned them down somewhere during LoC. I gave references to this in my earlier post, and it's good that he did. If not, where would the suspense be? The half a million (wotmania faq numbers) Aiel soldiers Rand has at his disposal would just clean up shop.

I like your reply Braun, even though I disagree on some points. ;)

As to the comparison with the Swedish Guards, the Defenders of the Stone are referred to as Tear's elite fighting force - their standing army so to speak (much like the Companions in Illian - where Tam got his training, and he seems to be a very capable soldier).

The part about the Shaido in Cairhien is more or less a direct quote from the book, it's from the chapter when Lan is quizzing Mat about the battle plans.

Winterweather (snow) should in all honesty be a con for the Aiel and a pro for the wetlanders - as they have never experienced it before (it doesn't snow in the Waste). Napoleon tried to take Russia with summer clothing (cotton), that didn't go so well.

Again Mili, stop avoiding it and give examples from the books where the Aiel are superhuman. You havent given a SINGLE example yet. You just keep rambling on about cavalry beating that and that, making assumptions and statements without explaining them. Stop going offtopic please

1. Countless mentionings about the Aiel war, and that some "fools" think the wetlanders (all united mind you and under brilliant leadership of the five captains) routed them at the Shining Walls, when they just had done what they came for, or would have won that battle too if Laman didn't die (latter part isn't said, but it is implied).

2. After the Trollock wars, the Waste is called "the Dying Grounds" by Trollocs and Myrdraal, despite ravaging the wetlands - at the height of their military might (Mantheren and all those other nations).

3. Gaul and Perrin beating ten Whitecloaks.

4. 100 odd Aiel taking the Stone of Tear. Even Birgitte, Faith of the Light, Silverbow, wouldn't try to sneak into the Stone, save for Gaidal.

5. The Shaido nearly scaling the walls of Cairhien three times, without ladders or other equipment.

6. Kinda flimsy, but but the way they are described. They are all described almost "warderesque", in lack of a better term. (ex. Ingtar, the Shienarian Heavy Horse soldier guy, says that stopping Stone Dogs charging is like trying to stop an avalance - even you all agree that Heavy Horse > Aiel in cotton if they charge at eachother). 

After a point, ca middle of book 6, the Aiel are somewhat toned down, or the others (Younglings, Sanchean, TRB (Tow Rivers Bowmen, ect) are beefed up to be on their level.

Ex: Gawyn spotting an Aiel hiding in a bush before Dumais, Younglings cutting their way out of the fight, Sanchean at least giving the Shaido Aiel a fight, the Malden fight, the Tearians(?) outpacing the Aiel towards Illian, ect.

I've been reading this thread, and like Militades I do enjoy the series - heck I don't even have a problem with the Aiel. That said, you all can't disagree with what he's saying though. The Aiel kicks ass, without too much valid explenation as to why. As to how they are built, take Bruan, one of the Aiel chiefs (just one example in many across the books when it comes to Aiel), he's bigger than Perrin across the shoulders, and huge. Reading it, I'm thinking of a Arnold Swarzenegger type of guy, with red hair - like a ginger Arnie.

How can you be a marathon runner (to outlast horses) and still look like that? Anyone seen Haile Gebrselassie? In his prime, I bet he could outlast a horse in a run, but he weighs 50-60 kg! I fail to see how you can have a bodybuilderesque physique and still do that.

Militades is right when it comes to the Aiel, hands down. I disagree with him when he says loathing them, as as far as I'm concerned it's fantasy and RJ can do whatever he wants. You already have the conniving Cairhiens, the expert negotiating Sea Folk, the promiscuous Domani, the stupid Tear(ians?), ect. Jordan wanted the different regions to have the same type of people, so why not super badass Aiel. However saying it's plausible in a real world setting, which some seem to suggest, is flat out wrong.

Why didn't the back row Shaido just take up their bows and pluck the Asha'man standing there making the front row Aiel into minced meat - if they are so good at "non standard combat"?

 

Because the Asha'man had a barrier of air.  I'd like to see the Aiel arrows that can go through that.

I'm fairly certain that they opened the wall of air two spans or something like that, before they started the meat grinder. Thirthy Asha'man, fourthy thousand Aiel. You'd think they'd hit home with some spears or arrows.

The problem I have with the Aiel is that in the first few books, or rather in all the books, it seems like all the Aiel are nigh on Blademaster good with their spears. They live in a desert, where people will fight and bleed for the smallest creek, yet they still have enough iron and wood, to make 3 spears, 20-30 arrows, hornbows (unless these are made from horn) and all that. Do they have mines in the desert, where they get all this iron?

I don't know about much about ancient warfare, or ancient cultures, but it seems to me that the waste has to be pretty non barren, to sustain a fighting force of say 50 000 x clans. And most of these are warriors, not smiths, or sheep herders or whatever. I would think that people placed in such harsh conditions would focus more about gathering supplies (water, tending sheep, ect) than waste calories and energy on constant training (which is required to be on par with a Blademaster).

I agree with Miltiades about the Perrin/Gaul thing - had it been a one off, where Gaul is hailed as one of the great fighters in all of the Waste maybe, but he just seems like your run-of-the-mill Aiel to me. Think about the Stone of Tear.

We have one of the really, really great castles in the wetlands, which obviously holds a garrison of elite soldiers (people who actually train at fighting each day), with superior armor, and so forth, and a hundred and fifty odd Aiel take the castle. Nobody has said anything about the number of Defenders, but I should think, as the Stone is basically their barracks they would number in the thousands. How do you defeat 10-1 odds - where the guys that have 10 are in chainmail, or perhaps plate, and you're wearing cotton? They could all just throw down their swords and sit on you. The weight alone would kill you. 

Then again, it's fantasy. If RJ wants the Aiel to be super badass, then they're super badass. I have more of a problem with the Asha'man whom after 2-3-4 weeks of training all but destory 40 000 Shaido. We all know the limits Moiraine, a channeler of 20 (+10?) years have against Trollocks and Myrdraal. Why didn't the back row Shaido just take up their bows and pluck the Asha'man standing there making the front row Aiel into minced meat - if they are so good at "non standard combat"?

Thinking back, it might also have been some info about Rand's imminent capture. Could be any number of things really, but I don't think (except for the horn) that any of them are relevant anymore. :)