Yes the side-plot involving Seaine and Pevara hunting for the Black Ajah in the White Tower was well done and a nice little addition.

Good grief ! Step back and look at yourself. You are the one who is being argumentative and belligerent.

No unreliable narrator is not " hard coded" into the story at all. Robert Jordan had no ideological agenda in the way that Rafe does. Robert Jordan was writing about the battle of the sexes, the male female heterosexual kind, in a humourous way. I don't "take it upon myself to be the true voice of the all fans of the books". Where do you get this nonsense from ? I am expressing my personal opinion here and that is all. Many people have similar opinions to mine about the show but I certainly don't imagine myself as talking for them. You misrepresent people don't you. I didn't say that making an adaptation of the books was hateful. I said that Rafe's adaptation was hateful because he replaced Robert Jordan's story with his own as a vehicle for his own ideological beliefs. Do you see the difference ? Context is everything. But if you leave it out then you can make people look bad. Yes I am the guy who "claims" that Robert Jordan treated his fans badly by larding his books with filler because that is what he did. And you are suggesting that he couldn't help it because he was dying from a terminal illness ? What is your evidence that his writing was affected by the illness ? And if you have any when did the decline in his health start to affect his writing ? He died in 2007 but ' Path of Daggers ' was published in 1998 so he would have been writing that book some 10 years before he died and that book was full of filler.

You may not think it's a big deal that Rafe substituted the story for his own "re-telling" but it is arrogant in the extreme to dismiss other people's legitimate concerns about it with a yawn.

What do YOU think is the point of the last word of every paragraph of every one of the books ?

" One of the main themes, if not the main theme, of the books is unreliable narrator. " That is not true. It is not even a minor theme let alone a main, or the main theme. Of course there was an objective reason to hate Rafe's show. He trampled all over Robert Jordan's story and changed it in fundamental ways to further his own ideological agenda. And in doing so he turned it into a vehicle for his own personal propaganda. And that was an absolutely hateful thing to do.

I'll respond here with what I found when I did a Google search on Young Adult literature: KEY CHARACTERISTICS Teenage Protagonist: The main character is typically a teenager, usually between 15 and 18 years old, and the story is told from their perspective. Coming-of-Age Story: The plot centers on the transition from adolescence to adulthood, exploring themes of self-discovery, identity, and finding one's place in the world. Relatable Themes: YA literature delves into common adolescent experiences, including friendship, first love, navigating societal expectations, and challenging authority. Emotional Intensity: The genre aims to resonate with the intense and often turbulent emotions of the adolescent period, such as figuring out who you are and finding confidence in your true self. Straightforward Writing Style: The language and narrative style are often direct, accessible, and designed to be relatable to a teenage audience. Mature Content: YA fiction may address mature topics like mental health, drug use, and sexuality, though usually with less explicit detail than adult literature. Broad Appeal: Despite being written for adolescents, YA books often have "crossover appeal," meaning they are enjoyed by a wide range of readers, including adult. Well I would say that all of that fits The Wheel of Time like a glove.

HHMB what is your problem !? You acknowledge that people here express differing opinions and then you get upset when they do !

But Kaleb what Rafe made was not the REAL story was it. The REAL story is contained in the books that Robert Jordan wrote and that's not what Rafe served up. He changed fundamental things to align with his ideological views, like that the Dragon could be a woman. He also downplayed the male characters and gave many of their big moments to the female characters. Moiraine was the star of the show for example and Rand was very much a secondary character. And your bald statement that the show " could never be the books " is flat out dishonest. There is absolutely no reason why the books can't be adapted faithfully to television. Yes the story would have to be trimmed down to size and things that are difficult to put on screen would have to be done differently. But that is part of the normal business of television adaptations.

I would say that it's more on the Young Adult Fantasy side of the equation. Fairly straight forward good versus evil premise. Lots of young romance. Lots of interpersonal conflict. Nothing too heavy on the politics side. Arguably the most complex subject ( although controversial ) is the way that Robert Jordan portrays the male/female dynamic, or what used to be called " the battle of the sexes ".

Yes there are people here bending over backwards to defend everything that Robert Jordan wrote as though it all makes perfect sense. But as you say some of it is contrived. For example I always thought that Siuan and Moiraine having the certainty of stilling hanging over their heads if the Hall found out they had recently found the Dragon Reborn and were helping him while keeping it a secret was contrived. Considering that the Dragon Reborn had to be able to fight the Dark One and that he needed to be protected from the Red and Black Ajah and Dark Friends what else were they expected to do ? Or Robert Jordan could simply have dropped that contrived drama and had them tell the Hall that they had found the Dragon Reborn and let the chips fall where they may. It's not as if Rand wasn't in danger anyway secret or not. And once Rand proclaimed himself as the Dragon Siuan planned to tell the Hall anyway !

Fair point. I have read quite a few of your posts but I don't agree with you at a fundamental level so I stopped reading them. And I wasn't suggesting that deflection was the only trick you had in your bag ; )

I was on the IMDb message boards for 10 years and that place was the Wild West. So I have a lot of experience on how people operate in these environments. And you have just deflected again. I mean I get it. It works and it's low effort.

And you're doing a whole lot of deflection.

But if the men who ended up at the Black Tower were overwhelmingly men who hadn't touched the source but could be taught then how were they identified and recruited ? They wouldn't have come forward themselves because they would have had no idea they could channel. The fact that the number of Aes Sedai had been steadily declining over a long period of time and that the White Tower had done nothing about it was a flaw in Robert Jordan's writing in my opinion. Surely a crucial part of the Aes Sedai's mission would be to prepare for the last Battle. And they could hardly do that if they had been twiddling their thumbs while their numbers were being significantly reduced over time. If they couldn't find enough new recruits then they would have to breed them by having babies themselves. Although I could understand it if Robert Jordan might have been reluctant to turn the White Tower into a creche.

Sigh, that was an excruciatingly dull section wasn't it. It seems to me if I remember it right that the upshot of all of it was that Egwene was trying to maneuver the Salidar Hall into granting her the exclusive right to negotiate with monarchs and rulers. Which somehow morphed into her having the right to unilaterally declare war on the White Tower. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Wow ! That was a very quick reply ! Were you looking over my shoulder as I was writing that one out ? EDIT - Addition And I have read before where you have used this line and people have responded to you by saying something like this: No of course when I say "done properly" I don't mean adapting every single page to the screen. I mean condensing the books by cutting out or reducing side stories and focusing on the important elements of the story. Staying faithful to the books and casting appropriate actors as they were written by Robert Jordan. Now it may take time to get everything planned and the scripts and screenplays written but it's not rocket science. It has been done before and it can be done again.

For me it was like going into a Gentleman's Outfitter and asking for a well tailored conservative suit with all the accessories and walking out dressed in a clown's costume with the pants on backwards and a flower pot perched on top of my head. So for me, yes. Nothing would have definitely been better than what we got from Rafe. Amazon has thrown close to $ 1 billion down the drain on that Rings of Power fiasco and Rafe's "re-telling" of WoT. For that amount of money they could have done all of the WoT and done it properly. It is so infuriating !

Was the centralisation of it. I know that Aes Sedai travelled out from the White Tower into the world. Most notably the Red Ajah I suppose when they went a-huntin'. And individual Aes Sedai could go wherever they wanted more or less, like Moiraine and Verin. But for an example of what I mean wouldn't you think that the Green Ajah ( the Battle Ajah ) would have had a garrison at Fal Dara on the Borderlands to help fight against the periodic Trolloc incursions. Not only would they be useful and appreciated but it would be good training for them. And they could rotate sisters in and out of the place. And another thing is the Yellow Ajah Aes Sedai. Never mind having an Aes Sedai advisor, I bet what most monarchs and rulers would have wanted first and foremost is an Aes Sedai healer ! And then for the general population you would think that the Yellow Ajah would have a permanent presence in the main cities of Randland. And maybe even roving healers going from village to village to heal any of the small folk who might need it. Otherwise if you needed Aes Sedai healing and you weren't in Tar Valon then no soup for you ! This is another example of me wishing that Robert Jordan had expanded the story of the White Tower and the Aes Sedai.

So the reason for the sudden abundance of male channelers was ' The Wheel Weaves as the Wheel Wills ' ? A convenient explanation but not a very satisfying one. And that still wouldn't account for the long term steady decline in the number of female channelers.

Good question ! In the books this came up with some of the Aes Sedai arguing that the reason there were fewer Novices in the Tower was because the Red Ajah had been culling the men who could channel. It made sense to me and explained why the Aes Sedai numbers were steadily declining over time. So if the Seanchan were doing the same thing then the same effect would happen. But Robert Jordan contradicted this when the Black Tower was established and suddenly men who could channel were popping up like mushrooms. So that didn't make sense to me. I would have liked RJ to have included a sub-plot where the Green Ajah were carrying out a secret breeding program with men who could channel to ensure that the ability to wield the one power didn't die out. Can you imagine the Red Ajah going ballistic when they found out about it !

Oh that's interesting ! Robert Jordan signed your copy of Path of Doggers did he. Tell me did you speak with him ? And if so was he showing signs of cognitive decline ? I ask because someone here (who may not be unrelated to the OP) suggested that was the reason for the poorer quality of his later books.

But I didn't compare Crossroads of Twilight to Dance with Dragons. I compared it to A Feast for Crows. In both of those books hardly anything happens. By the way Dance with Dragons may have more happening in it than Feast for Crows but it is an atrociously written book. I find it hard to believe that the person who wrote Game of Thrones also wrote Dance with Dragons. The first is a master work and the second is strictly amateur hour. Maybe it was ghost written by some hack and GRRM just put his name to it. As for thinking that Robert Jordan got lost in the weeds and then lost his mind. Well that sounds far fetched to me. Do you have any evidence that is what happened or is it just speculation ? The far simpler and more likely explanation is that Robert Jordan sold out for the money. After all writing was his job and the purpose of having a job is to make money. It's not much of a leap to put two and two together.

Yes Path of Doggers is mostly filler. Things are happening but nothing of consequence apart from using the Bowl of the Winds to fix the weather. Otherwise it's just a lot of wheels spinning without going anywhere.

Absolutely ! You could argue that Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time is the most creative Fantasy series there is.