On 4/6/2022 at 5:01 PM, Dagon Thyne said:

The OP has clearly never done dishes for hundreds of people every single day.  

I can understand your doubt because this is internet, but this time you guessed it wrong... I did and they didn't even teach me magic in return. Try to remember to treat other people as you would in person, hopefully not as rude.

About the other answer you are right, this thread made me understand the situation better.

12 hours ago, Juan Farstrider said:

There's an interesting thing about idealism. As a personal trait we often take it to mean wanting the best or expecting a level of perfection that the older see as unrealistic as they become realists. But idealism also deals with the idea that some abstraction is real or more real than reality and the abstraction is both recognizable but unknowable. It is tied to subjectivism. So, idealism and subjectivism are like one thing or on one side, and objectivism and realism (which I don't necessarily associate together, directly) are together on another side.

But these seats of power might not even exist in some platonic realm of forms where the ideal version of things exist (if such a realm exists or even if such a realm is worth entertaining the way imaginary numbers are worth thinking about and using). I mean what's "idealistic" in any sense about someone's power over others? Parents power over their children is fully functional and necessary and purely realistic maybe. I'm thinking aloud (clack clack clack as I type: aloud.) Sorry. 

It's true☺️, ironically when I said "idealistic" I though about my ideal version of things.

But I also meant that I usually hope for the good to prevail, which at this point I don't know if it can be called "being idealistic", because it means getting the "ideal" outcome (

) in a situation which is not ideal to begin with. And this accepting reality as it is sounds realist to me now?

I'll stop here before I get more confused, I was one of the worst in my philosophy class, although I didn't like the professor more than the subject.

What I wrote it's just my though, backed up by no knowledge on the ideal/real idea.

32 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Is this not like the real world? Does not every person with visible power owe a debt to some one or some group that put them there? Roman emperors ended up often only serving at the pleasure of the legions and their top generals. 

I know you will love the rest of the books, but I dare not say more. 

Now I'm curious and excited?.

Regarding the Amyrlin, it's true, it was and it will be. I tend to be idealistic, but your point of view is much more realistic.

16 hours ago, Andra said:

She did make the same kind of statements dancing around the truth that Aes Sedai are known for.  Demonstrating that being able to lie doesn't mean being required to lie.  If the truth suits their purposes, they can tell the truth.  But sending Egwene and Nynaeve off to Seanchan wouldn't remotely eliminate dangers to Rand.  Quite the reverse, in fact.  Nor would the members of the Seanchan forces that were a danger to him go back with them.

The sul'dam that would have held their leashes were not in themselves dangerous to him, since they can't channel (as far as they know).

 

But even without any specific lie from Liandrin, it still logically follows that Black sisters can lie.

Because your reasoning about them is absolutely sound.

 

If Black Ajah sisters remain bound by the First Oath, it would be trivially easy to expose them in the Tower by asking a direct question, just as you said.  The fact that we know they exist there, and have for thousands of years, leads to one of two logical conclusions:

1: Aes Sedai in general are too stupid to have figured that out, and so have never asked direct questions.

2: The Black Ajah have found some way to remove the Oaths.

 

And if you think about the rest of the oaths, it's even more likely that this has happened.  A channeler who can't use the Power as a weapon except for the reasons stated in the Third Oath wouldn't be much use to the Shadow.

You are right, the whole thing would have been unrealistic if the black Sisters had not been able to remove the oath.

It was the only major flaw I found until now, I didn't think for a second the oath could be broken, I was too hasty.

Thanks for the thorough explanation.

1 hour ago, Elgee said:

 

Have you ever scrubbed rock hard floors on your knees with a handbrush, caustic soap & water, for hours on end? It's ... unpleasant. ?

Indeed it is.

11 hours ago, Andra said:

Actually it is known.  Or at least it should be readily apparent.  Based only on what was seen in The Great Hunt from Liandrin.  Or from discussions of the Black Ajah by other characters.

 

Of course that depends on the reader having figured out that Liandrin was Black without being told so explicitly.  Because she clearly lied to the three girls to get them to Toman Head and turn them over to Suroth.

 

If it wasn't apparent, it's only a spoiler for a very brief time from where you are.  And I apologize for the brief spoiler.

 

It was so obvious that Liandrin was a Black Sister it was frustrating reading that part.

But she never lied. She said they would go to Toman Head ( and they did) and, I quote: "If you will come with me, some dangers, at least, may be eliminated. Do not ask how, for I cannot tell you, but I tell you flatly it is so." which is true, because the seachan are dangerous to Rand and Liandrin knew that after taking Egwene and Nynaeve some would go back to seachan, which means less dangers. (Yes, I went back and re-read the chapter).

Same during the journey in the Ways.

On 4/1/2022 at 9:00 PM, Andra said:

I think I can offer a little help on this without spoiling anything.

1: The Amyrlin is the most respected and powerful woman, but her power is not absolute.  The Hall of the Tower can and does do things on its own.  Amyrlins have been deposed (or assassinated) in the past, and any woman who holds the office would be aware of the risks associated with being found out doing something like what she and Moiraine are doing.  Tower politics hasn't been covered so much yet, but you will see much more of it later.

As far as why she holds the Seat?  She was elected to it by the Hall.  A Hall that was tired of old women dying after a short time in office, so they elected someone young.

 

2: It's true that a Black sister can lie, but nothing would require her to.  If faced with a yes/no question that might expose her, she can simply answer as anyone else would who had to tell the truth.  You might be able to catch someone lying, but you can't force them to lie.

 

 

And as far as punishment is concerned - it's the shame that matters, not the physical work.  Though as you suspected, there are worse punishments.  Even more shaming than scrubbing pots or mucking stables.

Thanks for the answer.

About the spoiler, be careful, at this point in the series it's not known that the Black Ajah's Aes Sedai can lie. It's a relatively small spoiler so I don't mind.

Thanks a lot, for the kindness and for not spoiling. I can't wait to discover everything.

Regarding the last part, you are right. I forgot they could use magic, and so it's not only tiring but also frustrating/humiliating, also knowing how much they love using the One Power. Now the crying make sense.

Thanks?

Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum and the series, currently reading the third book, when Egwene is back to Tar Valon after the Thomas Head battle.
I'm liking the book so far, but there is something bugging me regarding Tar Valon, Aes sedai, the Amyrlin Seat and the black ajah. I wanted to ask you if those are plot hole or I'm too early in the books, just what you think about it.

• The Amyrlin Seat is described to be the most respected and powerful woman, but she act as if on the verge of being overthrown, her servants will be surprised if she doesn't do exactly as expected and no Aes Sedai respect her. On the other side, she herself doesn't seem authoritative and does not react to any wrongdoing in Tar Valon, making me wonder how is she on the throne.
• regarding the Black Ajah, I don't see how it's possible for any Aes Sedai living in Tar Valon to be part of it. Because the Aes Sedai must say the truth, 3 yes or no question to every Aes Sedai would resolve the entire thing. If the Amyrlin Seat is half as powerful as described to be, she should be able to do as much.

Unrelated and just funny, but I find stupid how the worst punishment in Tar Valon is "scrubbing pot" and "working in the stable"... either they only described a small part of punishment or these incredibly strong woman are crying themselves to sleep over some dishwashing???

I've seen woman do way tougher thing and not breaking a sweat.

Let me know if there is something wrong with the post, being my first one.

Thanks, FreshMedlar