2 hours ago, Kazhvar said:

The actors keep referring to the DR as he or she but the DR cannot possibly be a she sine Saidar was never tainted by the Dark one. Why is this in the show? Its extremely confusing when you're trying to explain the entire background and lore of the world to someone and you're having to argue with the show...

Because they ignored the source material and the known lore about the heroes bound to the wheel.  It's unfortunately starting to look as if there are going to be multiple DRs (the multi headed dragon bit).  Then again, they've almost completely ignored Rand and focused on the other 4 in a silly attempt to misdirect--maybe he's still going to be the DR.

3 minutes ago, Ralph said:

What is this thing of Moiraine taking the darkness into herself? 

 

Is this coming back later? 

Yeah, that was another scene that I didn't care for--as well as the - "it's feeding on and linked to the darkness in him" bit.  That really trivialized an important Mat event and the "power" required to cleanse him.

30 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Someone mentioned Semirage "needing" to go to Seanchan because she wouldn't have fit in otherwise. But Rahvin himself was very dark of skin and just inserted himself into Andor without much fuss.

No, I think it's a bit different than that.  I think RJ was touching on the after effects of the apocalypse, the world reforming (literally and figuratively), and then stagnating--it seemed to rely upon the invocation of the local opinions,  from say a classical pov, with regards to light and dark. Tuon certainly stood out in W-Randland as being unique--as Semihage would have.  It mostly seemed to depend upon the pov of the character (or the narrator) with regards to that.

It was always a bit difficult (sometimes impossible) to figure out an entity's real-world Counterpart.  Illian was easy (its name + "the companions" + Stepaneos + similarities between its capitol and Sparta (no walls) = Greece) and, to me, the first hint that RL was a version of our world.  Then again, they talk like Irish pirates so I could be wrong.

1 minute ago, DaddyFinn said:

Seanchan are not all black, right? Sea Folk are very dark/black, some of the Tairens are at least dark.

No.  Seanchan seems to be an incorporation of many isolates that were absorbed by King Arthur's son and his descendants.  Things progressed differently there too--it seems as if they held on to some of the older tech longer.

I might be wrong but I always assumed w-Randland was a composite of Europe and parts of North Africa--I always assumed that "dark" = med tan.  Then again, the Aiel Waste is populated by Scandinavians that have Meso-American crops--so, I might be wrong.

52 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Is she unique because of her skin color? Am I missing something? I've seen this argument many times before but I still don't get it.

Yes.  She's black and it stands out.  Same thing with Semirhage and I think that's why her theater of operations was in Seanchan.

1 hour ago, Therese Sedai said:

Where is this praise well then? I assumed you were referring to the press. 
 

I see what you’re saying about the red ajah but depicting all lesbians as militant misandrists is probably not a good look. 

Perhaps my statement lacked clarity.

I didn't care when I read the books and I don't care now =  RJ could have written that scene in the books and I would not have cared.  However, I never stated anything about the importance, or lack thereof, regarding a character being gay.

Yes, I think that that scene was included solely to tap into the press's praise-well.

The Red is logical and easy to incorporate.  Just as it was easy for RJ to incorporate Reds that were hetero sex-fiends.  Everyone seems angry because "pillow friends" was hush-hush in the WT, but he chose to make them a bit Puritanical superficially and a bit heretical in private (same thing holds true with the Greens and their man slaves).

RJ's physicist side came through often and, like everyone else that got to play with q-mech, thought about "the lines of if" and eternal recurrence.  W-Randland certainly has a touch of reformation era Euro-land's philosophy and I think he was touching on that (both the superficial and the real).

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

They do discuss Rj's actor's list in the video.  I still recommend you check it out.

Fair enough.

6 minutes ago, Therese Sedai said:

Queer characters are not necessary because the press tells us they are. They’re necessary because some people are indeed queer. Why should those experiences be relegated to side characters, bit dialogue, and innuendo? 

I never wrote that.  I don't care about whether or not the characters were--now or when I first read the books. 

I do care about it ignoring the source material. Including that scene and making that choice with the narrative only serves to tap into a specific well of praise that is guarded by reviewers.

They could have handled this differently by simply using the RedA as a sub-plot instead of using Si-Mo love via Traveling.

41 minutes ago, Skipp said:

@Zarathustra

If you want a great video that breaks this down better than I can I recommend the Daniel Green and Mat Hatch(From the Dusty wheel) breakdown.

 

 

Or, you could just review RJ's thoughts about actors to be cast as characters that he created.

45 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Jordan's world has culture's geographically divided, rarely races.  The 2 exceptions being the Seafolk and the Aiel.  Everywhere else Jordan uses terms like "They were darker than Tariens" or "They were lighter than Domani". 

 

But in cases where he went more specific in skin colour we have examples like Old Cenn Buie is described as being as dark as an old Root.  Go dig up a root, they are fairly dark and that is directly in the Two Rivers.  The first Queen of Andor is described as being very dark, akin to the seafolk.  Elaida says Rand can't be from the Two Rivers because his untanned skin is to pale. 

 

This all shows that while the countries of the Westlands have general physical attributes, Jordan mostly cared about hair/eye colours and then relegated the rest of the differences to dress.  But when it came to skin colour, except for the two exceptions I mentioned above,  everywhere had a fairly large range of skin colours.

 

On Siuan specifically while she is described as pale as snow the general peasant populace is described as fairly dark almost to the point of the Seafolk.  But by casting Sophie in the roll it hasn't changed anything with her character in the slightest.  Same is casting a taller actor as Moiraine or casting a slightly shorter Rand.

 

 

I disagree.  The Two Rivers was based upon any of the small towns in the South (similar to where I grew up;  we just had cattle and tobacco instead of sheep and tabbac) and while the Irish is strong in me (I become lobster red if I'm not careful) most people are "dark as root" compared to me.

Consider when Tuon is introduced and how unique she is compared to every other character introduced to that point.  Regardless, that horse has been flogged so many times that the mud open which it fell now has grass.

I disagree on the second point too--more so about Giant Mo.  To each their own though.

11 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

To you, perhaps! I have spoken about how the scene represents their intimacy, and that I find it well scripted, well active, and very emotionally resonant. It is profound and extremely compelling, and speaks to the high quality of storytelling, where their own additions can be just as interesting as the material from the original text. 

 

They have not blended Tear and the Sea Folk. A constant theme I am finding is people getting mad about stuff that is only speculation, even when that speculation is proven true. In the concept art of Tairen fashion, there is a woman with no tattoos, and a separate Sea Folk fashion can be seen with some passersby in Tar Valon. The idea comes from the real world tendency for fishermen and men in the navy to be much more likely to get tattoos, even in a time when tattoos were taboo in the rest of society.

 

What casting choice are you talking about? Do you mean Sophie Okonedo being a dark-skinned woman, even though 1) Tairens are described as having skin tones that ranges to "as dark" as the Sea Folk in the original text, and 2) they are making an artistic choice that most nations have no distinct look due to the world-government that existed before the Breaking of the World, and you have had 2 years to accept this since the castings of the Emond's Field Five were revealed?

1)  Back at you.  It's irrelevant to me and a useless change.  However, you like it.  I still see it as ignoring the source material.  It's,  introducing Traveling, even worse because it completely negates the reason why the used the Way gate.

2)  Your view is equally speculative.  However, evidence presently supports an argument about the SF being absorbed into another culture.

3)  Dark as in med-tanned.  Siuan had "fair skin" and blue eyes.

4)  Jordan made an artistic choice too and he geographically separated races and cultures.  There's a reason why Semirhage was playing in Seanchan instead of W-Randland.

I didn't know about the show until we saw its banner on Amazon.

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

 

Her father specifically says that she has to go the the Whitetower because it isn't safe for her in Tear.  What more do you want.

 

Sophie Okinado is a fantastic actress and displayed Suian's gravitas superbly. And being able to see 3 different fascets of her character on display, The Amyrlin, her vulnerable side with Moiraine and her teacher mode with Egwene/Nynaeve. I don't understand how you can be up be upset with her in the role.

I've written this elsewhere, but the the casting choices ignore Jordan's purposefully crafted world in which races and cultures are geographically separated.  They could have handled this differently simply by introducing the Seanchan without ignoring the source material.  That would have been a more acceptable shuffling of text--the S pov of the return or arrival in Falme 

8 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

I have read the books, and can enjoy the differences, as the many people have. It isn't good because "I wanted something different" -- it's good on its own merits at presenting a compelling dynamic, and that's what makes it enjoyable at the end of the day.

 

What's strange about the casting choices? Do you mean the excellent choice to cast two of the most acclaimed actresses out there in the show? And there is nothing Sea Folk about their tattoos, they are fisher folk tattoos (as is very common in cultures across the world) to represent the waterways of the Fingers of the Dragon.

That's just it:  it's not good because it's meritless.  

Regarding the tats:  They totally blended Tear, if she's even from Tear in Rafe's train wreck, with the SF.  

The casting choice is absurd because, again, they ignored the source material.  

51 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

And yet they are able to make the show with the knowledge of all books in mind. New Spring is no less important just because it takes place in history. And there is still a basis for it -- just as there would be a basis for Siuan and Moiraine being married to a man if they took a different path. The Companion explicitly says outright that they had 'relations' and an established relationship. You may not be able to recall something, or perhaps you have not looked thoroughly at the ancillary information, but that does not mean it is not there.

I simply don't care and did not when I read the books--it's not in the main sequence and that scene served no purpose other than tapping into a potential praise well and further alienating fans of the books (perhaps you should review the books, because they present a completely different narrative of the two after the death of Gitarra).  It's not good simply because you wanted something that was not in the books.  Of course, the casting choice and the sea folk tats are equally strange.

2 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

No I haven't forgotten that it was a prequel, but it's a shame that there is a tendency for people to forget the events of the actual books lol. I'm not denying that it's a change, but it's also a good change and one that has a basis in the book series.

 

People have been liking Moiraine and Siuan together since the books were first published, and yeah, I think that there is a genuine sense of inclusivity from making them main characters instead of a random Red sister. 

 

And I'm not going to lie: this relationship is more compelling and interesting than the very forced and boring relationships that are Siuan/Gareth and Thom/Moiraine, and an improvement on RJ's "experimented in college" approach to such relationships.

I think I'm missing that one.  Si and Mo only interact briefly in the main sequence and I only ever had the impression that they were two close friends that were very driven and had a singular goal--driven to the point that thoughts of relationships never even entered their minds.  There's certainly nothing (that I recall anyway) in the main sequence that would make anyone think that they were sexually interested in one another (or women for that matter).  If anything, statements about hypothetical lives as wives or mothers support arguments about how they preferred men.

I think Jordan wrote New Spring and included that as a nod to his fans that wanted Si-Mo while providing a prologue for established fans and a bit of bait for potential new fans.  I preferred the short about the 100 companions, but, that's the magic of art.

40 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

I can't believe Robert Jordan disrespected Robert Jordan's material when he made Siuan kiss Moiraine in New Spring and wrote notes that were published in the Companion about them being pillow-friends. Clearly Robert Jordan has no respect for Robert Jordan, and wanted to make the Wheel of Time into his own personal playground.

You seem to have forgotten that New Spring was a prequel and published after the Siuan-Gareth thing had started.  There certainly was not a Si-Mo midnight stroll through a Gateway in the main sequence.  If anything, their allusions to hypothetical lives as wives and/or mothers and their eventual pairings with Garreth and Thom further justify such arguments.  It's a bit strange that anyone would attack those that have issue with that major change to the narrative.

Rafe tossed that one in for one reason:  he wanted to tap into the reservoir of praise reserved for narratives that are more inclusive.  It's odd though because he could have easily done that, early on, while remaining within the bounds of the source material by simply focusing on some of the Red characters--I guess he thought he'd receive more praise via the use of two central characters though.

2 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

As a fan of the books I am clearing my mind of any pre-conceptions and expectations and focus on viewing the episodes as if they were new. It is hard, but I can do it and it improves the experience for me a 1000x.

 

Also, I am not allowed to spoiler anything for my guy who is kinda new to this (he read the first book but can't remember a single thing because he could not get through the prose...). He loved the last episode and I can't even bring myself to tell him the actor who plays Mat will change in s2. Because he'd consider that a spoiler ?

 

Now. I have been reading the nay sayers and non-fans of the tv show here and I really do not want to even go and try to change their minds. But maybe it helps if one gets out of the expectations one has due to their own inner theater of the mind whilst reading the books.

 

It is not a D-film, it is not a low-quality production and it is certainly treating the story as a story for people who have not read the book and are a little bit smart. But I guess that is just an opinion too. ?

 

I just do not understand why someone would watch episode after episode of a series one does not enjoy. Can someone tell me why? I certainly don't. Loads of series I started and then just did not finish because it was not entertaining to me and I hate wasting time on stuff I do not love or even like.

 

Why the self-flaggelation? Just love yourself enough to stop watching.

I can't speak for anyone else, but, in my case, I think it's similar to the -50% of Howard Stern's audience that did not like him and just tuned in to hear what he was going to say next--I always liked Stern though.  I'm just interested in seeing how badly Rafe flays the source material and I'm still trying to figure out where the 10 mil per episode was allocated. 

Actually, I think I'm also trying to understand the arguments presented by those that praise the show.  As is, even ignoring the fact that the source material has been butchered and largely ignored, I can't see any justification for the praise directed at either the production quality or the writing--the story has so many holes that it could be used as a sieve.

22 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

Could you please link me to a YouTube fanfiction production with the same quality of Wheel of Time, please and thank you?

 

I also believe you may be forgetting that

• early Game of Thrones was "cheap", even for 2011 as HBO was willing to give it more budget once it had proven itself as popular, and there were cost-cutting measures such as removing the most important battle of the first book
• There is no budget-munching material just as inherent to Wheel of Time in early Game of Thrones, such as channeling or monsters (their "monsters" were in just a couple of very short scenes early on).
• Even late Game of Thrones, I would say, has inferior costumes to early Wheel of Time:

Anyone who is knocking the costumes needs to tell me that this does not look like a soccer mom who got a sweater and a black cardigan and some dollar store fantasy jewelry, lmao.

Star Trek: Renegades, for example, is better than Rafe's WoT and they only had 350k.

30 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

Clearly people must be watching better productions! Because the editing, set design, lighting, speaks to extreme high quality in many ways, and while constructive criticism is always welcome, many comments have been downright fallacious by calling it D-movie level, or display commenters' own lack of understanding of how television and visual media works in general, especially during a pandemic. Not to mention that a lot of evidence about how it is apparently disliked often falls into the realm of anecdotal evidence, because of course the generally good reviews and outstanding success it has had in viewing numbers would likely not support their argument.

 

I don't enjoy the pacing either, but for instance, many seem not to parse production problems (a lockdown, a main cast member leaving, and Amazon only ordering 8 episodes even though the production team have consistently said that they also want more screen time). And as said before with the "low quality" complaints, many seem to either be genuinely searching for complaints or are apparently great connoisseurs of acting abilities, if they are to call the acting of some of the most acclaimed actors in the industry "high school drama" level. It is rather rare to see complaints that do not end up devolving to insults to Rafe, with apparently few users realizing that e.g. there are different writers like Justine Juel Gillmer writing this episode.

 

Once more, I do see a pervasive number of people who call themselves "book purists," yet their knowledge of the books is surprisingly lacking. I have not read every comment here, but it entertains me to read people claiming that e.g. not everyone is reincarnated in the books (they are), or that differences in recognizing female channelers in the books somehow means that damane cannot be found (even though it is canonical in the books that they simply test everyone with the a'dam, for instance).

Compare the production quality of Rafe's train-wreck to everyone's favorite benchmark (GoT).  One looks like a you-tube fan-fic production and the other looks like a high-budget, cinema quality, film.

Balefire is the only thing that could correct this aberration in the pattern.

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

I don't have the scene at hand, but I think there's discussion somewhere that as long as it was genuinely meant at the time it's no problem.  IE she has to seriously really plan to bring her to them.  But if, say, later she discovered Nynaeve was a DF, then that changes everything and she could change her mind organically.  

 

 

In real life homogeny happened because there was tens of thousands of years of human development in any given area with little travel.  In the books there was a multi-culture, incredibly diverse kingdom where the Two Rivers is 2000 years ago.  60-100 generations is not enough to force homogeny back.  The people complaining aren't rightfully pointing out how wrong the show is, they're pointing out they don't understand basic genetics.

I disagree.  Consider real world analogs in which the local genetic makeup rather quickly changed due to war (Southern Spain, S Italy, S&E Greece, Mexico, etc.).  Sure, there are isolates (Ankara and blondes via a Gallic horde, the prevalence of clusters of green eyes in Persia, etc.) where traits still linger, but your claim of 60-100 generations not being a long enough period of time to achieve homogeneity is absurd.

Of course, There's also the fact that the people of the previous age in Randland appeared to cluster as well.  There's a reason why Semirhage, for example, was playing in Seanchan--she was as black as Tuon and would have stood out in "modern" W-Randland (which used Europe as a template).  Jordan essentially used the American South and its farmers (predominately derived from the BI) as a template for the Two Rivers and its people. 

I'm surprised that anyone is willing to defend this show at this point.

More poor casting choices aside;  Traveling, Mo-Si are now a sexual item (poor Thom and Gareth), Li with an implied male channeler lover/loved one, using the OR (sans its number) to make an oath after they've already been bound to speak no lies, DO and the EotW, etc.

The only way to save this series would be to zap the showrunners with balefire and erase them from the pattern--maybe someone would have been hired that both read the books and is capable of effectively using 10 million per episode. 

Exactly like the book.  Of course, everything else would have been that way as well.  I can understand edits for the sake of time--hell, I remember reading the books for the second time and skipping countless pages devoted to descriptions of dresses and what not.  

The intro to this series is a brilliant example of foreshadowing--it certainly waved a large flag declaring that the show was going to be a train-wreck that ignored the source material.

There may have been an anecdote about Sharan women (being based on crusader stories about Muslim women), but it was more of a "outlanders are not welcome" allusion to trading in Arabia (with a heavy shot of the Roman saying about not trusting Arab traders) or pre-opium war China.  I might be wrong though--there were only 4 or 5 places that, to me, had clear ties to real world locations/cultures (others seemed to be composites).

They are playing on the shawl thing a bit, but, as with their other poor choices, they've incorporated something from the BBC's new take on representation in the jolly old UK sans regards for the books.

20 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

That's when Egwene learned it. It doesn't mean that no Aes Sedai could do it. That wasn't considered one of the 'lost' magics.

 

I don't recall anyone using it other than the Seanchan and the lads from the BT.  I think it's another instance of the showrunners doing as they wish with the source material.

On 11/23/2021 at 11:48 AM, AshennaSedai said:

People not liking Nynaeve and Egwene's casting choices? Honestly, I'm sick of racists reviewing everything.

The casting choices are absurd and it's not racist to say so.  Jordan was a student of history and meticulosly crafted a world in which races were geographically separated for a reason.   Those casting choices are as ridiculous as a hypothetical 6 ft tall white woman being cast to play Tuon--a small black woman that rules Randland's version of an American Empire in which everyone has a Southern accent and has slaves that can channel.