White Lotus is the only recent show that has been like that in my friend group. Maybe they can cast Jennifer Coolidge as Graendal. 😆

I agree we might see the white tower split this coming season, it's already been hinted at in one of Moiraine and Siuan's conversations. So far the seasons end with a combo of a victory and a new threat -- I can see a victory in the two rivers, maybe combined with the gals capturing Moghedien or some of the Aiel stuff, and Siuan deposed all happening in a finale or final two episodes. And I think she might actually get killed in the process. The books wait on killing important characters until closer to the last battle, but I think the show may not hold off that long. I think it would be good for the threat in the finale to either be the white tower split or Rand losing some grip on his sanity, rather than just more Foresaken or Seanchan shenanigans. I guess there's also the Shaido but I'm really crossing my fingers that we get to skip them entirely.

Am very late catching up on the last two episodes because I was abroad. I think I'm in the minority when I say I feel very similarly about the season 2 finale as how I felt for the season 1 finale. Both were entertaining and had their moments (and honestly, some improvements over the book events), but weren't exceptional and had a lot of confusing parts. However, season 2 overall has been much more evenly paced and fun, and I love watching the kiddos grow in their character and power. I wish some scenes had been skipped in order to give more time to others. For example, I don't think we needed that entire tea scene with Ishamael and Mat. Mat already feels bad about himself, and viewers already know that. Would have rather seen him steal the horn and dagger himself in that time than just have both conveniently handed to him later. Love seeing him with a staff and speaking in tongues though, and generally enjoying his character a lot! I'm also super excited about Moghedien, but her introduction took a while given she mostly just kept repeating the same phrase. I would rather have some of that time added to the fights our main characters were involved in (for example, the Perrin/Hopper/Whitecloak situation felt rushed). I'm glad Moiraine and Lan have ended their tiresome drama. The mechanics of the Seanchan being able to shield Rand from far away with little visibility and Moiraine being able to interrupt it from quite a distance (and probably in violation of the oaths) was strange, but maybe I'm misremembering if distance mattered so much for channeling in the books. I'm really loving how the show is giving us a ton of direct parallels between Moiraine and Lanfear -- both powerful, determined, ruthless older women and both ostensibly helping Rand but never being fully transparent. It's not a connection I remember thinking much about in the books, but it makes Rand's attitude toward them both more understandable and will make eventual interactions between the two of them more interesting.

Ooooooooff this episode was dark, but I thought well done. The actress playing Egwene continues to impress me, and those torture scenes cannot have been easy. It was disturbing in the books but seeing it onscreen was significantly harder for me to stomach. Rand and Mat reunited was so great for the 30 seconds it lasted! They both continue to get totally played by the Foresaken though...wise up sheepherders! I'm enjoying Mat's character a lot more now that he's out and about, can't wait to see him get some powers of his own. Rand and Logain seemed off to a good start in terms of lessons, but uh, I guess that's already over. Maybe Lan will be more successful and finally teach him to use his freaking sword. Lanfear and Ishamael also continue to be fantastic villains, so I'm not going to complain about the amount of screen-time they are getting...they're the most fun characters at the moment! I don't really know where things are going with the Moiraine/Lan/Alanna/Siuan situation at the moment so I guess that's a wait and see situation. I hope we'll get a Moiraine & Lan reunion with some actual explanations since they are both in Cairhien, but I'm not holding out hope for it. I don't mind Moiraine's family drama either, I think all the actors are very good, I just hope it's going somewhere. Was the Yellow sister's channeling near the end there strictly self-defense...seems like the oaths are bit lenient if you're allowed to fold people's bones like origami. I couldn't help cheering her on anyway though.

Right, if it were an act all the drama between him including Moiraine riding off alone would be part of some greater plan they had concocted together. I think at this point there's probably enough evidence to say that's not what's happening though.

Ymmv, but I've been watching with a friend who has not read the books. She gets that the dragon reborn is a big deal! That was one of the main themes of Season 1 -- they wouldn't have spent time on the "who is the dragon reborn" shenanigans if being the dragon reborn was of no consequence. I don't mind them rolling out allllll the implications of that more slowly instead of in big exposition dumps. And he will play a pivotal role in the battle(s) at the end of the season. How he'll do that given we have no evidence he can use his sword is separate issue...

Of Rand's hookups, I think there's one in the show that's a tad larger departure from the books than Egwene...

Yeah, I wasn't particularly excited about Morgase and Tallanvor either, although I don't remember exactly how young he was supposed to be. I did not care who Morgase ended up with as long as it wasn't another of the Foresaken. A lot of the pairings in books seemed to occur in the last 3rd of the series only so the majority of good characters would be paired off at the end. By the time the Last Battle is imminent, I frankly don't care which characters have the hots for each other. That probably influenced my feelings on Siuan and Bryne as much as the other circumstances of their relationship did. I'm inclined to agree with you on the Thom and Elayne interactions, and I may have misread them in the books. I remembered Thom being uncomfortable, but maybe it was just Nyneave. It doesn't really seem important to me to include, but if they do it tactfully for a scene or two of comic relief I won't mind.

Neither are technically bad or wrong, they both just felt kinda weird to me as a reader. I think seeing it onscreen is unlikely to improve that. I don't think I'm the only person who feels that way. But to each their own!

Well Thom is definitely coming back, he wasn't introduced just to disappear forever. Perrin is getting a lot of screentime this season and seems plenty masculine. Elyas is very different from the books but still seems "competent and honorable" to use your words. I have no doubt Tam will be back too, providing an excellent example of healthy masculinity. I'm not gonna totally dispute you, I think the female characters have been better in the show so far -- but to say any competent man has been or will be removed from the show seems like a massive exaggeration.

I think if we got the arguably less important Bayle, we're likely to get Gareth, but probably a bit abbreviated. I don't know if his and Siuan's arc needs to be romantic to end with him as her warder, but if it is I really hope she doesn't look like a teenager. It was weird in the books and it'll be weirder on screen. Same goes for Elayne hitting on Thom. Ick.

The Seanchan were much scarier in their initial attack than they were in this episode with the manicure of shame. Suroth and Turok are not necessarily doing it for me...so scary when they don't speak, so dumb when they do. Maybe that's the point though, not the brightest bulbs so all the better for Ishamael to manipulate. Hope whoever is training Egwene is scarier. The Foresaken are also pretty goofy, but I like the actors for them better and they absolutely hammed it up in the books too. Lanfear's reveal of her true nature has been extremely entertaining so far. Fav moments were probably Detective Verin, Avhienda sassing Perrin at the campfire, Elayne and Nyneave bickering, and maybe Moiraine's interactions with her family. I still think the show does best when it slows down to let the good characters really interact with each other, not without frustration or pettiness but still with good intentions. It's an important contrast to the interactions of characters in the shadow, who just try to flex on each other constantly. A minor quibble: Most of the costumes seem great to me this season with the exception of Avhienda. Is she wearing yoga pants? And like, combat boots? With what spandex and rubber in the three fold land are these being produced? Top half of the costume is great, bottom half seems...millennial. It wasn't on camera in the light for long though so I may have seen it incorrectly.

I have also considered how much of both Moiraine and Lan's current behavior is an act, especially given how in sync they were in Season 1, and I agree he knows more than anyone else (save maybe Siuan) about Moiraine's overall goals. If all of their conflict and miscommunication this season had been in front of others, I would have been almost certain, but it's clear in season 2 they aren't even on the same page when they are alone together. Arguably Lan isn't just acting dumb with Alanna and her warders, he's also being kind of dumb. Unless he intentionally left that poem in his bag for Alanna to find, he should have know that was the type of thing to not let out of sight. He probably shouldn't have told her warders about all the times she's masked their bond. I would get that kind of behavior from one of our naive young heroes, but Lan absolutely knows better. The only explanations I can think of are that: 1. He is under a lot more strain from the missing bond than is obvious so he's being really sloppy 2. He's mad at Moiraine for not telling him stuff and being mean, and he's retaliating (either consciously or unconciously) by being sloppy Neither of those really fit his personality in my opinion, so I'm hoping we get a better explanation of what's going on.

I'm glad you started a separate topic for this because I've also found it confusing in the show and I didn't want to dig through all the unread discussion topics to see if anyone could shed light on it. Things I'm confused by: - When Moiraine was attacked by fades, did she was channel a weensy bit right before Verin appeared? Was that just the start of Verin's channeling or was it supposed to indicate Moiraine can reach the source when need is great enough, but just barely? Certainly that would be impossible if she was stilled, but is that a thing in the books with shielding? - Lan and one of Alanna's warders had a kind of long conversation about masking and how often and for how long their bonds had been masked. We already knew about masking from season 1, was this just a refresher? Seems like a weird use of limited show time so maybe I missed some new info we were supposed to glean that was relevant to the current bond situation. Also, the warders know that their Aes Sedai distrust one another, often for good reason...doesn't that make it pretty strange for them to be having gossip sessions about their Aes Sedai's private behavior together? - Are Moiraine and Lan acting way weirder than in the books? Certainly she had plans to pass the bond if anything happened to her, which she knew was likely (maybe even certain) but I think I remember her sharing that fact pretty openly with him so he could come to terms with it. I'm not sure what's being accomplished by pushing him away in the manner she has been. I don't remember Lan ever being this clingy (to Moiraine or Nyneave, and they both went off on their own to do dangerous stuff on more than one occasion) and I don't remember Moiraine ever being this cruel. I can't tell if they've had their personalities changed for the show to make them a bit more flawed, if this is just to illustrate the strain they are under with her being shielded or stilled, or something else yet to be revealed is going on.

My thoughts on Liandrin were less that she's doing wildly different things than in the books, and more like...the attitude in which she does them? The vibes are so obviously very bad! If you're trying to be sneaky maybe be a little more subtle with the crazy eyes and extreme temper and general provocations. I feel like Nyneave, Min, and Mat, who are among the most distrustful of Aes Sedai generally, would be a little tougher to manipulate than they have been. Although to be fair, Mat and Nyneave are still country bumpkins as previously pointed out. And Min probably already knows she's bad news but just doesn't realize how bad.

I'll be honest, I kept myself off this forum for the last few weeks because I wanted to give Season 2 a shot on its own before diving into the opinions of a lot of book fans. I have also enjoyed this season a lot more than season 1 (with the exception of the episode that centered on Moiraine and Siuan, which I thought was outstanding) and I was expecting to dive into this topic and just read a lot of hate since the show is quite different from the books. I'm pleasantly surprised to not be the only person enjoying myself around here!! I think the writing is way stronger than last season, although I think it can still be improved (maybe 20-25% of the dialogue still feels too cheesy to me). What has impressed me the most is that despite all the changes from the books, the world still feels really lived in and real. I don't recognize a lot of what is going on plot-wise, but the characters and settings are so right to me that I don't mind. Happy surprises: - Alanna. I couldn't care less about her in the books, she just annoyed me. I find the actress who plays her in the show honestly delightful and I like seeing her given a bigger role, which I think will make her eventual arc hit a lot harder for me than it did in the books. - Perrin and Rand. A lot of folks are saying they aren't getting enough screentime or action but I love how both of these characters are being developed. They are both still way too innocent and easily manipulated by the adults around them (Lanfear, Moiraine, Ishamael), but you can see them observing and starting to learn how the wider world works. Seeing their rise to power is going to be fun. - The Seanchan are AWESOME. I found them mostly an annoying distraction from characters I actually cared about in the books. I find them suitably terrifying in the show. Egwene is going to have some major PTSD. - Hopper! - Egwene and Elayne's dorm room jungle juice gossip sessions are just great. These two are so close to how I read their characters in the books. - The settings and costumes feel like they've gotten a step up since last season. Love the novice dresses, basically everything Moiraine wears, Rand's work jacket, and Perrin's woven vest. - VERIN! The mistress of novices is also very good I think. Feeling meh about: - They are theoretically having lessons at the White Tower? But we only saw one? I feel like we need some reinforcement that they are actually learning something other than how to scrub floors, otherwise it's not going to be realistic when they know how to channel later on. - Mat could use less moping and more action. Similarly, Lan is getting a LOT of screentime for someone who is mostly just being a grouch. Unlike a lot of folks, I don't mind a more sensitive Lan than the early books, but I still want him to do stuff! If he's not teaching some sheepherders how to fight or reuniting with Nyneave by the end of the season, I'll be the grumpy one. - I miss book-Nyneave's temper and sass. I like the actress for the show, and her acceptance test was totally heart-wrenching. But I want to see a bit more of the overconfident, take-no-bs, unhinged Nyneave from the books. It made her interesting because she was so powerful but also a loose cannon. TV-Nyneave only gets mad about reasonable things like people trying to kill her and her loved ones and is otherwise extremely gentle and reasonable. Where's the fun in that? - I feel like I'm supposed to believe Liandrin is some kind of master manipulator but she's so obviously bad, if Mat or Min or Nyneave took 30 seconds to think about some of the things she did or said, the jig would be up. Use your noggins! Is she trying to get caught or what?

I didn't love the trailer song. While I don't like that particular song, I'm not necessarily concerned about it representing the music on the show more generally. When modern music is mixed into non-modern or not-our-world movies or shows, it can be effective -- but I think only when done really intentionally, as a way to bridge a modern audience with a story set somewhere very different, or add modern commentary to a historic moment. For example, Hamilton does have rap battles...but the contrast of the modern music with the historic moment is kinda the point of the whole musical. I don't see a lot of good opportunity for anything like that in Wheel of Time, unless we glimpse a turning of the wheel that's actually supposed to be our age, in which the music could be an excellent clue. I think given the universe it's set in the music doesn't necessarily need to feel "old timey" either though, just different enough to make us feel like we are elsewhere. I think having very recognizable pop stars singing in the actual show would be a bit too much, no matter how thematically related the song are.

Yeah very curious if Lanfear and Selene will be played by different actresses. I sort of feel it's not necessary to the plot and would make the show more confusing, and is part of the books partially so that RJ could describe more pretty ladies.

Really interested to see Rand in seasons 2 and 3 also -- I think the whole mystery angle in season 1 didn't really let that actor shine, but I think he has good potential.

If I had to guess why he's crying, he might think Rand is dead at the start of season 2 and he might blame himself for not being there to help.

I think Moiraine, Suian, and Logain are the strongest actors on the show. But my top pick is probably Egwene even though she's less experienced (for example, her real accent slips through sometimes) because the balance of warmth and stubbornness the she brings is just perfect for how I imagined her while reading.

I think it's most likely switched in the show. For all the reasons listed above, but also because unless you have captions on, most viewers are going to hear the name as "Jane" and make assumptions, and they don't do anything to dissuade viewers from doing so. So either Jain is a woman OR that dialogue is just very badly written, and while both are definite possibilities I'd prefer the former.

Maybe there's just not that much overlap in people who care about Wheel of Time and people who care about Goop?

Ahh this is exciting!!! Verin, while she obviously has a serious side, also has the potential to inject some much needed comic relief into the show imho. I haven't seen her in anything but that BAFTA speech above is all the convincing I needed.