9 hours ago, Harldin said:

To get Tuon in earlier you are going to have to do a major re-write of several books, Rand has to find Salidar first and he is to busy at first in Carhien and Caemlyn , Mat is not ready to go to Salidar until he has the Band a going concern, there is also Avienha with Rand before she goes to Salidar. The leadership in Salidar are not going to allow Nynaeve, Elayne, Mat and co to go to Ebu Dar, it takes Egwene being raised to the Amyrlin Seat and raising them to the Shawl for that to happen. 
 

How are you going to do Mat and Tuon to increase there Page Count? The story of there flight from Ebu Dar is a big one as is.

Sorry i just think that any earlier appearance by Tuon in the Westlands just changes the story to much

You cant have Tuon and the Seanchan turning up till the Bowl is found and used and everyone escapes. You basically have to re-write 2-3 books and bring a lot of things forward for that to happen. 

Books 7-10 could benefit from a major re-write to be honest. There are absolutely important, cool, and fun plot points that take place in those books, but it’s also true that the story in those 4 books meanders, stagnates, and is repetitive.

Those 4 books are responsible for keeping many a poor soul from finishing the series.

Tuon is one of the cooler, unique characters. Many of the female characters are, let’s be honest, indistinguishable from one another. All  gorgeous, white, know-it-all, and nagging.

Tuon is a breath of fresh air. Would have LOVED much, much more page time given to her.

But now we are waaay off topic. Cheers!

edit: one of my favorite “scenes” from the ENTIRE series, and one of the best written, is Tuon’s and Rand first interaction. 

9 hours ago, Harldin said:

Not sure how you introduce Tuon any earlier without throwing a massive Spanner in the works story wise.

i don’t want to get the thread OT, but my understanding is RJ’s wife was doing the editing in the early books.

there’s multiple story arches that span thousands of words and dozens of chapters that could have been drastically edited down.

the books could have been shorter, fewer, or more time could have been spent on other story arches.

obviously, this opinion is subjective but it is shared by others.

I even feel that way about the last three books. I felt like so much was crammed into AMOL that could have been covered in more depth in the previous two. We didn’t need to spend so much time on Elayne and Camelyn as the ultimately had very little to do with what was essentially the culmination of a 14 book series and the long-time-coming last battle. It was like shuffling deck chairs on the titanic. We spent a whole book on Elayne and Camelyn only to have it literally burn down the next book lol. 

Yes, thanks so much for the resources, both of you. 
 

remember that before Ishy was Ishy, ba-alzamon, and Moridin, he was Elan. A very powerful channeler; I think as powerful as Rand/LTT.

If he’s not a hero of the horn, I’m not sure how he would have faced LTT/Rand “thousands of times.” (Need to find the relevant source for that.)

it couldn’t have been in the 3,000 year period in the book’s 2nd and 3rd ages. He could be referring to other 2nd and 3rd ages, or just other ages altogether. 
 

I need to read about the nature of their connection. They seemed to be connected pre-balefire crossing, but that made things go wacky. And then of course the ending. 

Two things:

I can’t believe the seanchan were introduced so early in the series (book 2) but we only meet tuon closer to the end. Would have loved more of tuon and mat honestly. 
 

I think the overall plot was VERY fluid in the first several books. The identity of Ba-alzamon and Ishamael, the nature of Mat and his memories (there are hints that he was shaping up to be a reborn hero too, but then RJ moved away from that), and this issue with LTT/Rand being reborn and then as the series progressed reincarnation became a pretty central them, not just the heroes.

anyhow the prophecy/rebirth of LTT/Rand is still unique. Seems tied to  the DO, and the opening, sealing, resealing of the bore. 

5 hours ago, Sabio said:

LTT soul can be reborn and not have to be the dragon.  Hawkwing metioned how he had fought LTT countless times.  So it's unlikely LTT soul only comes when a dragon is needed.  it could be LTT's soul will always be reborn to be important or play key roles but seems unlikely he might not reborn for thousand of years until a dragon is needed.

hm. Excellent points. I went back and looked at the relevant text and it’s still ambiguous. Does AH know LTT because LTT is a hero tied to the wheel (like him) or does he know LTT because LTT summons him with the horn repeatedly throughout the ages. 
 

for example, when he says “I have fought along your side countless times  and faced you as many more.”

he *could* mean via the horn. Sometimes AH and the heroes have been called with the horn by the light and sometimes by the shadow. (However in the last book, it is said the heroes of the horn would never fight for the shadow.)

having said that, it seem like LTT (or at least his soul) is a hero of the horn that is spun out into the pattern as the pattern sees fit. 
 

AH says when May asks if 100 is all the heroes “you could tell him LTT if you could remember when you wore flesh.”   
 

(shouldn’t that say “when you *last* wore flesh...)

Anyhow, haha, it’s all still pretty unclear. The soul of LTT/Rand seems to be a hero tide to the pattern which is spun out throughout the ages like AH. Sometimes they battle each other sometimes not. 
 

rand says he recognizes ALL the heroes and each of them has “a hundred” names. So LTT/Rand probably have a hundred different  names too. 
 

but why in this instance was the soul of LTT/Rand prophesied and reborn with memories retained, we still don’t know. It must have been what the pattern needed based on the bore and DO. 
 

20 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreliable_narrator

Graendal also doesn't know the inner workings of the universe as well as she may think, could be lying. Hell the forsaken thought healing those severed was impossible. ? 

Also recall that Ishy's statements completely contradict Graendal's thoughts on the matter. 

Does Ishamael provide an explanation as to why the messiah—in this case, LTT—is prophesied and reborn—in this case, as Rand?

We can’t trust the forsaken. But graendal seems baffled by the prophesy and rebirth. Ishamael says a messiah has been spun and reborn thousands of times.

who to believe? Either way, we don’t have a reason.

That’s the knowledge I’m searching for.

As far as the title “dragon,” Ishameal is the one who says in the book that the messiah—in this case, LTT—was given that title during the age.

Other cultures referred to the reborn messiah with different titles. The title “dragon” seems to be unique to this iteration of the 2nd and 3rd age. In other words, the messiah spun out to deal with the DO may not always be called “dragon.”

Furthermore, we can’t say for certain that a messiah is always spun out in the 2nd age and reborn in the 3rd age. It seems like that’s the case, but there’s just enough ambiguity that we can’t say for certain.

The main confusion comes from prophesied nature of the rebirth.

Reincarnation is part of the wheel of time universe. But having a specific person/soul prophesied to be reborn is unique. 
 

Greandal says it best:

Quote

How do you know?" – Graendal asked, smiling as if it were a joke. "It may well be that, as many believe, all are born and reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has ever happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is? ^[3]

this entry has a bunch of relevant info for this topic:

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon

On the one hand, the dragon is the term for the champion/messiah spun out by the pattern to deal SPECIFICALLY with the DO. Other heroes are spun out for other things, but the messiah is spun out to deal with the DO. 
 

The books indicate that the term “dragon” is specific to this particular 2nd and 3rd age. The messiah may have different names in other iterations of the 2nd and 3rd age (if this pattern indeed repeats). 
 

for example, the sea folk and aiel had different, none dragon, titles for the messiah. 
 

So, a la Graendal, no one knows why this messiah-soul got a second chance and was prophesied to be reborn—as this isn’t the case for any other soul that is reborn/re-spun into the pattern. 

53 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Very good!

So the reason the dragon is spun out is to balance the weave of pattern from the DO having too much influence.

This doesn’t tell us why this soul (messiah) was prophesied to be reborn in the next age and indeed was reborn.

[Note some people argue that ONLY LTT is the dragon, and that all past and future 2nd age messiahs may not be called the Dragon. Thoughts?]

We can assume that this same pattern unfolds each 2nd and 3rd age. Messiah is spun out, doesn’t finish the job in the 2nd age; is prophesied to return, indeed is spun out again the 3rd age.

Why isn’t a different hero spun out in the 3rd age to finish the job? Why does the messiah get a second chance?

Are LTT and Rand indeed the same soul? Or are they different souls? (Edit: yes, according to sources they are the same soul.)

Is the messiah being reborn a unique iteration of this particular 2nd and 3rd age, or does that happen almost every 2nd and 3rd age?

Many “hero” souls are tied to the wheel and reborn/re-spun into the pattern by the creator to balance the weave. 
 

For some reason, the messiah soul was spun out, failed, was prophesied to be spun out again in the following age, and was indeed.

As far as I can tell, we are never given a reason why this is the case. 

49 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Logically it makes sense that if souls are reborn without their prior lives knowledge, they'll be different people, with different names.

Wheel of Time Cosmology is cyclical time. Heroes of the horn are another thing, and they aren't always named Brigitte & Cain, but they're almost always the same souls reborn around the same time, "destined" to meet.

 

 

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=age+lace

 

Hard to say. A "Name" is just a series of sounds we make to call each other. Rand & all Aiel could have Gray hair with Violet eyes, and it wouldn't change the overall tapestry. 

Okay. Let me take another stab at this:

In the beginning, the Creator created the wot/pattern and imprisoned the DO outside of it. 
 

The wot cycles through many ages (how many?). The same finite amount of souls are spun out into the pattern in various ages repeatedly and cyclically. 
 

One special soul in particular is spun out into the pattern in various ages, but in the 2nd age it is spun out as a messiah/savior who fails to contain the DO. This soul is then always prophesied to be reincarnated in the 3rd age and indeed it is. 

In one instance at least of this pattern, the soul is named LTT and when reincarnated it is named Rand. We don’t know whether this soul is always named LTT in the 2nd age and always named Rand in the 3rd age. The 2nd and 3rd ages have similar overall macro patterns as they repeat albeit with micro differences. So the name/personality of the hero might be different. 
 

We do know that Ishamael claims to have knowledge and even memories of this messiah living and being reincarnated countless times.  Are these memories from direct experience or is this information given to him by the DO?

4 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

It's LTT and Rand in the 2nd and 3rd ages.

That soul can be reborn as other people, and named Steve in other ages. Still Rand's soul, just not "Rand".

yes, as far as continuity, that makes the most sense, but logically it doesn’t. Whenever Brigitte is spun out she’s a hero. And it’s indicated that this is the same with some others. 
 

it would be weird if the soul of LTT/Rand could be spun out in other ages and just be a normal Joe. But when spun out in the 2nd and 3rd ages the person is THE hero. 
 

when the soul is spun out in the 2nd and 3rd ages, is it always named LTT and Rand? Or does it have different names?

Previously I had thought that the soul of LTT and Rand had been reborn thousands of times in other people as well. So it’s just LTT and Rand. Got it. 

33 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Yep.

 

In RJs wheel of time, time is literally cyclical. 

okay. That makes sense in the sense that as I read the books over the years,  there are multiple references to this rebirth happening thousands of times, but all we ever here about is LTT. 
 

it now makes sense that LTT and Rand have been reborn thousands of times. 

5 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

It's not a contradiction, those are RJ's words.

"The Dragon" is both a title, and a literal connection to the land, it's tied to his soul, but his soul isn't always spun out with that connection active.

 

We know that an Aes Sedia with Foretelling prophesized it after his death.

 

We only know that the Dragon & Forsaken are always spun out every 2nd/3rd age. We don't know that the shadow has any other champions in other ages besides the 2nd & 3rd.

We know that there are a variety of Heroes throughout the ages that the Horn can call upon, but this battle between the shadow and light is entirely different from other conflicts that we know nothing about. ? 

 

That's why it's speculation once we delve outside AoL & the 3rd age. We don't know nothin' about anything. The wheel spins for an eternity. In the age we call the 6th age, there could have been an infinitely large room, filled with an infinite number of monkey's clacking on typewriters.

In the 4th age, for all we know the Fae Realm has breached reality and the world is besieged by Fae Creatures with their tricksy fae magic.
In the 7th age, the cults of Cthulu could rise up and bring about the destruction of Earth.

Hm, so are you saying the ages repeat? That the 2nd and 3rd ages have played out thousands of times? And that they’re pretty much the same each time? Or have the same people?

so when Ishamael says “we’ve done this thousands of times” he means he and LTT have been spun out in the 2nd age thousands of times? And then LTT is reborn as Rand thousands of times?

I’m just trying to make sense of this haha. 

19 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

We only know that the Dragon & Forsaken are always spun out every age. We don't know that the shadow has any other champions in other ages besides the 2nd & 3rd.

Very interesting! Do you have a source for this? I didn’t gather the first part from reading the books, and Ishamael and other WOT sources seem to contradict the second part. 

14 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

The Dragon is the Dragon, and Rand's Soul is always spun out as the Dragon.

Not all ages have a Dragon, and Rand can be born in future ages and not be the Dragon.

Here you say “Rand’s soul is always spun out as the Dragon” but also that “Rand can be born and not be the Dragon.”

This is either a contradiction or Rand and the Dragon are two different things.

I’ve read other debates in other forums which argue that the title “Dragon” is unique to LTT alone, and has nothing to do with the creature nor other past/future people.

Likewise, I’ve read the term “champion” used to describe the various incarnations of the souls who are spun out in various ages to champion the light and shadow.

Either way, the answer seems to be “We DON’T know why LTT was prophesied to be reborn. Nor why he was INDEED reborn as Rand, who retained LTTs memories.” We just know that he was. 

We DO know however that many “champions” for the light and shadow have been spun out by the pattern thousands of times throughout the ages.

We DON’T know if they have been prophesied to be born/reborn in the manner of LTT (dragon) and Rand (dragon reborn). With Rand retaining memories from his previous life as LTT.

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

The "Soul" is the same through every "reincarnation". 

LTT is always the "Dragon" in the 2nd age, and Rand is always the "Dragon" in the 3rd age. It matters little if their names are the same, whether their personality is the same, or anything of the like.

In other ages, when his "soul" is spun out, he may or may not be the "Dragon", but in the 2nd & 3rd ages, he is always the "Dragon".

Ishmael/Ba'alzamon was all kinds of mad, and we don't know if he actually remembers all his prior incarnations of himself, or if that was just pure madness.

Rand's memories are real, but were tinged with madness. (mainly in the form of intrusive thoughts in the voices of his past memories) 

One subtle things we learned in the series is that Rand might have had vague memories from an earlier incarnations of the Dragon/his soul. When Rand visited Dragonmount, he went full Kwisatz Haderach.

So Rand does retain real memories from Lews Therin Telamon. For example, several weaves from the AOL and the ability to recognize and name the Forsaken.

The question then is does each reincarnation of the Champion retain memories from the previous Champion? We don’t know. For example, LTT does not say whether he retains memories from the Champion preceding him.

Furthermore, LTT was himself not regarded as being “reborn” nor prophesied to be reborn in that way that Rand is LTT reborn. 
 

Perhaps it has to do with the unfolding of the age. In the 2nd age, all was good until it wasn’t. Thus, the champion needed to be reborn in the 3rd age to make things better. Thus, LTT is reborn as Rand. 
 

The 4th age may be good, but will end when the DO again touches the pattern. Then the champion from the 4th age might be reborn in the 5th age?

In other words, the Champion of an age is only prophesied to return in the bad ages, not the good ages.

The reason LTT was prophesied to return as the Dragon Reborn was because the 3rd age needed him.

Question: Is each instance of the pattern spinning out a champion an instance of rebirth? Or is LTT (the Dragon) being reborn as Rand (the Dragon Reborn) special/unique in the cycle?

Repeatedly throughout the ages, a champion of the light and a champion of the shadow are spun from the pattern to battle one another.

In the WOT book serious, the champions of light are Lews Therin Telamon and Rand al Thor. The champion of the shadow is Ishamael/Moridin. 
 

When Ishy visits Rand’s dreams in the early books, the things he tells Rand imply that he remembers his past lives. (Sometimes you resist, sometimes you don’t, etc.)

Are all the instances of the champions of light and shadow being spun out of the pattern instances of rebirth? They seem to be the same two souls spun out each time.

Was Lews Therin a reborn version of the previous champion of the light? Will the champion after Rand be Rand “reborn?”

There seems to be some debate about whether each champion of the light is the “dragon” or whether just LTT was the dragon.

Does each champion retain the memories of previous champions?

(Someone on Reddit said RJ had said Rand’s “memories” of LTT are false and just a result of madness. But in the early books, Ba’alzamon (Ishamael) does have memories of many past lives, which he shares with Rand.)

(I have a hunch that RJ literally changed the plot around some things from the early books such as the identity of Ba’alzamon and the nature of Mat’s memories.)