The problem with the theory of Logain going mad and killing his family ala Lews Therin is that Logain did NOT go mad.  Vainglorious, yes.  Affected by the taint, no doubt (although I don't recall any such manifestation in the books).  Stark raving mad, definitely not.   A totally mad Logain could not do any of the things he actually does once he appears in the books if he were that far gone.  They are making him a bigger character, but (i hope) not a totally different one.

I certainly haven't seen any trend toward considering Sanderson the superior writer on THIS forum.  There are somethings Sanderson does better than Jordan, pacing for instance.  Overall I'd say Jordan is the better writer by a fair margin though.  That said, Sanderson's writing may translate better to TV.  Not that it matters, because the show will have to be a tremendous success to last long enough to get to Sanderson's contributions.

I think the Caemlyn story line is the single best part of book one, so I'd hate to see any of Elayne, Elaidia, Gwayne or Galad cut.  It sets the stage for so much of the story to come.

Perrin/Faile will rule the Two Rivers and Faile/Perrin will rule Salaea, but it won't be new joint nation.    Perrin has sworn fealty to Andor for the Two Rivers, but it's largely autonomous.  Perrin will do what he can to protect that autonomy, but he won't break with Andor unless Elayne forces that extreme action on him.    I don't see Perrin doing any sort of direct rule over Ghealdan, although some degree of influence and interaction is likely.

New Spring had a lot of illogical stuff that seemed designed to "foreshadow" things that happened 20 years later in real time, but had already happened in the books. I suppose that is a danger with any prequel but New Spring felt more like fanfiction than an actual Jordan written WoT book.  The style seemed even less Jordanesque than the Sanderson WoT books. 

Rand definitely could have appointed Elayne ruler of Andor as easily as he appointed rulers in Cairhien and Tear (and would have in Illian had they not chosen to make him King instead).  Elayne *choose* civil war rather than being "gifted" the throne by Rand.  It was simply her ego that lead to thousands of unnecessary deaths and delayed preparation for the Last Battle (not to mention an extremely long and pointless plot line).  The theoretical 200,000 man Andor army did not exist and would never have been allowed to form if they tried to oust the Dragon Reborn or his appointed ruler.  Even the largest Andoran lords would have only retained a few hundred professional soldiers with the bulk of their "armies" being poorly trained and armed levies.   They could not have stood against the Aiel and Bashere's borderlanders,  even if they weren't supported by Rand and his Ashaman (which they clearly would have been).  This is not to say that some Lords might not have tried to raise their levies, but they never would have brought together an army the size that Arymilla did, nor gotten so far as to lay siege to Caemlyn.  Indeed some who joined that army would have joined Rand instead.   The nobility acts mostly out of self interest and that means choosing the winning side is at least as important as choosing the right side (and Arymillia's claim to being the right side was pretty weak).   So the issue is not why Elayne didn't use the One Power to fight her opponents in the War of Succession, but why she insisted on fighting it in the first place. 

The discussion of who would win a battle between Perrin and Elayne's army is irrevelant because neither of them had any desire to fight that battle. Both knew the more important issue was getting their armies to Rand to fight the Last Battle.  Basically Perrin wanted the Two Rivers to maintain the *exact same relationship to Andor that had existed for several hundred years* with the exception that he would now be it's lord...primarily to ensure that Andor didn't try to infringe on the status quo.  Elayne wanted him to swear fealty in exchange for formalizing that lordship.  The only real obstacle was Elayne's arrogance getting in the way of a common sense agreement of exactly that (Perrin had no problem swearing fealty provided it didn't alter the defacto autonomy the Two Rivers had long enjoyed).  Fortunately Morgase was there to guide her daughter to a solution all parties could accept.   Of course after the Last Battle there could be some issues; Perrin/Faile now ruling Saldaea makes him an uncomfortably powerful vassal and Elayne desperately needs tax revenue to rebuild Caemlyn.  On the other hand both are going to be too busy in the short run for conflict between each other to rise to the front burner;   Elayne rebuilding Caemlyn and Perrin rebuilding Saldaea.  Elayne merging Andor-Cairhien and Perrin dealing with the vastly expanded population of the Two Rivers and how to manage governing both Saldea and the Two Rivers (unlike Andor-Cairhien they are unlikley to become a single entity).  Over the longer term I expect that Elayne would be tempted to try to bring the Two Rivers more firmly under her control, although I suspect that Faile is more open than Perrin to a dynastic marriage between one of their children and one of Elayne's that results in the joined line becoming High Lords of the Two Rivers (and perhaps Stewards of all Western Andor).

I think Jordan had good intentions of writing strong woman characters and he did have some success there. Many of the most admirable characters are women. Unfortunately his personal experience and/or generational bias apparently resulted in him thinking being a nagging harridan is part and parcel of being a strong woman.  That is not surprising since it remains a sadly persistent view of strong women today (at least in america).  It doesn't ruin the books, but it does make it harder to like many of the female characters.  That said, I just reread the first book and, while the first time through I found Nynaeve very unlikable (and for many books to follow), this time I had an entirely different view of her.  Its easier to understand her motivations having experienced her full story once.  That probably won't make her travels/bickering with Elayne more fun in subsequent books,but I am more likely to put all the blame on Elayne since she was one of the few characters I liked less as the story progressed and Nynaeve's being on her constantly will likely seem more justified.   

On 9/27/2006 at 5:12 AM, RJJT86 said:

Wow, hold on one second. Nobody "tamed" Lan. He is untamable. He's a lion who restrains himself, and if anyone, I repeat anyone tried to restrain him, they'd find their neck ripped out. That's who he is.

 

He may have willingly married Nynaeve, but don't think for a second that makes him tame. Not to mention that even after he married her, always longed to return to his fight. Even after he married her, even after he pledged his love, after he gave her his signet, after everything between them, his first love was his war against the shadow.

 

So what if she dropped him off at the edge of the world. That doesn't make her smart and in fact I thought it was rather childish of her, granted I liked her next idea to go and get him an army to fight for him. I'm pretty sure he thought he was going to hold Tarwin's Gap on his own, but that's just his stubborn pride and stubborn guilt (admirable qualities in thier own right).

 

Anyways end of the story is, yes in book one the development of thier relationship was a bit pushed. But I think at the same time it flowed well. I seriously doubt that RJ sat down and said I need a relationship. I'm pretty sure he just needed the mutual feelings established before the second book. And while I don't have my books with me I will say that I don't remember undying love being pledged up in the blight or the borderlands. I do remember the scene in Tear where he says, he'll be there to save her anytime. That would be the undying love pledge scene if ever there was one. Anywho I think it does take a long time to develop their relationship over several books worth of literature, so I'd say it's a decent one as stories go.

Childish of HER?  The man she loves is planning to run off to a completely pointless death and she is the childish one?  She accepted that she couldn't deny him his quest, but she transformed it from a suicide to something worthwhile.  I didn't like Nynaeve in the early books, but she developed into perhaps the most admirable person in the story. Her love and loyalty, not just to Lan but to Rand was inspiring.  

In the early books the spanking was not a major theme. There would be no reason to show it on screen.  In fact the most common switching theme early on is actually Nynaeve talking about having switched the boys back in Two Rivers, so its really not a feminist issue.  What they might choose to portray later (assuming the show does well enough for there to be a later) probably depends on the demographics of the audience.  If it has lots of young fans then the sex and spanking will be minimized.  If it develops an older audience then they will be more prominent.

Nynaeve's braid is so much a part of her character I would be very disappointed if she doesn't have one in the series.  Of course, any fan of the books is going to have a lot to be disappointed in.  It would be impossible to do it for TV without cutting lots of story lines and some characters and they don't appear overly concerned with casting to conform to book appearance.  Still this would have been an easy thing to get right. 

There are some rather childish story lines in WoT, but the world building and character development is quite sophisticated.  I think it can captivate both the YA market and the more mature reader in very different ways.  Have not read Malazan to have any basis for comparison between the two series

My point is that Perrin didn't take an excessively long time to resolve the rescue, Jordan did.  Faile was a prisoner for 51 days and the entire interlude from leaving Cairhien to arriving in Caemlyn was only two months out of a three year story.  It IS true that Perrin is far more introspective than Mat and I can understand why readers prefer the more action based Mat to the deep thinking of Perrin, but there is room for more than one type of person in the stories.  For me Mat was more fun, but Perrin was more real.

Mat was the most fun.  Perrin the most relatable.  Nynaeve the one who grew on me the most.  Rand was the most important, but liking him was difficult at times.  Faile is a character I loved in the books and probably love more  now since joining this site and feeling the need to defend her against her many critics :).  Same for Cadsuane on a smaller scale.  Lan I respected most of the story, liked some of it, was disgsuted by when he decided to make his pointless suicide run (I loved the scene when Angelmar points out how selfish Lan's suicidal tendencies are, nobody had ever had the courage to speak up to him like that before). He redeemed himself by killed Demandred in the end.  Verin was a great character. Min was by far the best of Rand's three women. Tuon and Mat's scenes were the most fun interactions between any of the couples though.  That's ten so I'll stop although I could easily swap a few others into the list if I kept thinking on it.  Lots of characters I really liked at points of the story and really disliked at others.

I know most readers consider Perrin's rescue of Faile from the Shaido to be drawn out, boring and pointless.  Many turned against Perrin (and Faile if they didn't already hate her previously) because of it.  I certainly understand why people felt/feel that way since Jordan dragged it out over 4 books and many years.  The pacing was frustrating even reading it after the series was complete, but it must have been infuriating for people who waited years between books only to see nothing resolved in the next one.  That was Jordan's failure not Perrin's though.  For Perrin the entire plotline from when he left Cairhien to when he arrived in Caemlyn took up only two months of the three years covered in The Wheel of Time.  And he accomplished ALOT during those two months.  He brought Ghealdan and the White Cloaks to the side of The Dragon Reborn.  He won the loyalty of some 100,000 displaced persons who made up the bulk of his army at the Last Battle.  He laid the groundwork for an alliance with the Seanchan that Rand desperately wanted.  He discovered the dreamspike which was to be a significant plot factor in the later battle for the Black Tower, Egwene's battle with Mesaana and Rand's battle with the Dark One.  He found Morgase (who Rand was rumored to have murdered). He destroyed Mesana's band of murderous thugs (which was probably the optimal outcome of his original mission).  He destroyed the Shaido who had been Rand's most persistent human enemy.  He came to terms with his inner wolf.  He came to accept it was his duty to lead and made an agreement with Elayne that legitimized his Lordship.  I know many people think it took him too long to accept that duty, but we should remember he was a 21 year old who had started the story as an introverted blacksmith's apprentice from a sleepy backwater that had no lords.   If the plot line had launched in one book and wrapped up in the next, as it should have,  I think most people would agree that it was one of the most productive and interesting in the series. That it did not reflects on Robert Jordan, not Perrin Aybara.  The other thing that seems to bother people is that Perrin was "obsessed with Faile" and put her rescue over his mission.  I don't really understand this at all.   Would it be in keeping with Perrin's character to simply shrug and say "well it sucks that the woman I love has been kidnapped and enslaved, but I need to get this madman back to meet with Rand"?  I submit that almost any man would have done anything in their power to rescue their wife.  Further, by this point Perrin had already concluded that Mesana was a madman beyond redemption.  There was really nothing to be gained by taking him to Rand and he did achieve most of what he was sent to do by keeping Mesana with him instead of terrorizing the countryside. When Mesana's band was destroyed in the battle with the Saido and Mesana himself killed by Faile it was the best possible resolution of his mission.  In summary, Perrin accomplished much and achieved significant personal growth over the course of a couple months and it only seemed boring because of Jordan's terrible pacing failure.

Jordan got lost in a world of his own making.  I kind of doubt the story would have ever finished if he had lived because he would have just kept adding characters and story lines that didn't really move the main plot forward.  It was interesting in its way, but had to be extremely frustrating for readers who waited years between books only to discover the next book didn't resolve anything.  It was mildly irritating to me, reading it after the series was finished,  but I imagine it was infuriating to people who were reading it as it progressed.  I think most of the Perrin-Faile hate  is displaced anger by people who couldn't bring themselves to hate on the author.

None really.  I can't say I had any emotional investment in any Aes Sedai who turned out to be Black Ajah other than the subject of the thread.  I didn't like that many AS in the first place.

She was prepared to kill Cadsuane *if she thought Cads was a threat to the Dragon Reborn* not to serve the Dark One.  And she had poison prepared so that wouldn't violate the Three Oaths (which only restrict killing with the One Power.  That wasn't a hint she was BA, quite the opposite.  It showed she was committed to seeing the DR succeed and prepared to be ruthless in his defense. Fortunately Cads answer satisfied her that she was also committed to the DR.

I think when you put "spoiler" in the subject line anyone who chooses to read the thread anyway has only themselves to blame if they learn something they didn't want to know.  Anyway, V's revelation was shocking but it only increased my admiration for her.  She was undercover all those years at great risk to herself and sacrificed her life to reveal the truth when it really mattered.

1) Elayne (i liked her in her very first appearance,but she went steadily downhill from there.  Vain, Arrogant, Entitled and Foolish.), 2) Gwayne (much worse than his sister, of course, at least she was committed to something.  Thankfully we didn't have to read as much Gwayne).  Elaida (i find it hard to believe that this incompetent was who the WT turned to after overthrowing Siuan).  I see Faile making a lot of lists, but she was one of my favorite characters.

Wise Ones don't have to marry Clan chiefs.  Its not even possible for all Wise Ones to marry clan chiefs, as there are many more WO than chiefs.  Also, we know Aviendha wants to marry Rand and she is no longer an apprentice who must obey. She is her own woman now (although obviously committed to doing what is best for the Aeil).  We also know that Aviendha will have 4 children by Rand, but we don't know if she is already pregnant from their night at FoM or that is yet to happen.  So while I doubt they live together (at least not in the near future), I also doubt that they won't continue their relationship.  One possibility that I've never seen brought up though is that Aviendha and Elayne (and perhaps Min if she doesn't get the bulk of Rand's time) might want a full time husband at some point instead of Rand just dropping by when he feels like it.  If they marry a normal man then the three way marriage of Rand-Aviendha-Elayne could wait until their husbands and Min live their human lifespans.  

Elayne's crush on Thom wasn't quite a romance but it was super creepy.  Of the consummated romances, Egwene-Gwayn was the worst. Moraine and Thom the most inexplicable.  Elayne gets a second mention as by far the worst and least believable of Rand's three loves. 

On 5/31/2011 at 11:20 AM, solarz said:

Faile is my #2 most favorite female character in the series, with #1 being Min.

 

I dislike how many readers point out her "flaws", and how she's not "suitable for Perrin". It really reminds me of gossips who say that "so-and-so aren't suitable for each other", while not having the least bit of understanding of their relationship.

 

If people's personality traits could be described simply as "good" or "bad", then you can't find two characters with more opposite personalities than Min and Faile. Yet, they're both my favorite.

 

Why? Because people are not two dimensional. They aren't defined by their occasional temper bursts or bouts of irrationality/childishness. What so many people think are flaws with Faile actually manifest themselves as great strengths under the right circumstances.

 

Faile is terribly jealous? Well, she's also incredibly loyal to Perrin and protective of him. She has bouts of anger? She's also extremely passionate and dedicated. She does things behind Perrin's back? That's because she's also extremely intelligent and well-versed at the Great Game: an invaluable asset to Perrin in politics.

 

Faile and Perrin are a great match. Faile's impulsiveness is tempered by Perrin's methodicalness. Perrin keeps Faile from racing off a cliff (most of the time), and Faile prods Perrin into doing *good* things that he wouldn't otherwise do. Where Faile's skills in the Great Game are a great boon to Perrin, Perrin's incredible perceptiveness keeps Faile from overstepping her bounds.

 

Faile and Perrin's romance is the one that resonnates most with me, because we get to see it evolve.

Min and Faile are very different personalities, but both are exactly what their man needs.  MIn is there to remind Rand that despite his godlike abilities and responsibilities he is still a man and needs to stay in touch with his humanity.  By contrast Perrin lacks confidence in his ability and right to lead. Faile helps him be the man he is destined to be by having more faith in him than he has in himself.  Her methods aren't always ideal and sometimes infuriating, but part of that is cultural and part of it is no actual relationship is ideal. Rand-Min and Perrin-Faile were the two relationships in the books that seemed most real.  Jordan kind of sucked at writing relationships, but these two he got right,

On 7/8/2011 at 11:11 AM, TheAngryDruid said:

For me, the idea that both the Dragon and the Tower left the Borderlands to dangle is one of the single most unforgivable, and unbelievable, things in the story thus far. Especially considering:

 

1) Egwene and Rand are both close to Nynaeve, and Lan.

2) They both regret the Tower not acting soon enough to save Malkier (and so did Moiraine and possible Siuan by the sound of things)

3) Rand intervenes to save Maradon, and says he couldn't let the DO take it after all they did to hold it. Does he think the people of Arafel, Kandor, and Shienar will be any less valiant?

4) Rand vows to Nynaeve, in full Budda Rand, that we won't let Lan down. And then he does so for the rest of the Borderlands. (not to mention not saving the Sea Folk).

 

Really, Egwene wrote some letters and hatched her plots with the Hall and dealt with the murders and Messy. Not saying she had to go personally, but with Gateways, they should have been able to send help. She had both the Guard and the Rebel Army around. Even fearing another Seanchan attack, they should have been able to do something. Heck, Gateways in and out of Heeth tower sending in 5-10 linked sisters with angreal every so often should have been able to hold the Tower for a LONG time.

 

And Rand is even worse. At least Eggy has Forsaken in her midst, and fears another Seanchan attack, and is picking up the pieces. Rand does enough to account for about 5-6 days. The 3 days or so walking (no hurry there) to AS to talk to Egwene. A couple days in Tear to reunite with Tam, ID the DF's, mend with the Aiel and Caddy and send her on her mission. A couple more in Bandar Eban. A day in Maradon. A day to get the Borderland rulers. What did he DO for the rest of the month?

 

We'd better have some kind of plausible explanation.

 

Oops, sorry, this goes a bit afield.

 

No, Elayne shouldn't blame Egwene. It is her duty to protect Caemlyn. She should know better than to empty the city, especially when one can just hop back and get the troops anyway.

It may be that Rand and/or Egwene could have moved a little faster to defend the borderlands, but shouldn't the bulk of the blame fall on the shoulders of the Borderland rulers that brought their 200,000 man army south leaving their kingdoms near defenseless?  Also, the FoM was not just a place to talk or intimidate Rand, it was where the battle plans for the Last Battle were made and launched.  The bulk of the Westerland's forces went directly from there to fight in the Borderlands (less Elayne's forces which returned to fight in Andor).  Its probably true that the armies didn't have to stage from FoM, what with gateways, but meeting there didn't really delay (and perhaps expedited) getting the most troops to where they needed to be the quickest.  I don't think Elayne brought her armies there primary because Egwene ordered it, but because she didn't want to be the only Westerland's leader who didn't show up.  She wants Andor to be the preeminent kingdom in the Westerlands and she made a good start to that by being appointed Commander in Chief for the Last Battle, which she almost certainly wouldn't have if she had not brought her army to FoM like the others.  I don't think Elayne has any intention of ever being a White Tower puppet.   

On 8/3/2011 at 9:21 PM, Winespring Patron said:

You can make an approximate guess of Noal's age by reviewing Agelmar's tale of Lan in tEotW. He must have been in his early 20's, "a young Jain Farstrider" when Lan was an infant. He appears older then his actual age because of the hardships he has endured and possibly being tortured. Based on Mat's description of his hands, he must have broken them (or fingers) at some point because he was no longer able to do sword forms but had to rely on daggers as his chief defense, although he did use a short iron sword in ToG (exception?).

If he was in in mid-20's when Lan was an infant he must be *at least* in his mid 60's by the time he appears in the stories.  Lan is in his 40's.  So he kind of looks his age.  He is unusually vigorous for an elderly man though.  Likewise Thom must be in his 50s, but remains a man of significant physical ability.  Unlikely perhaps, particularly in such a primitive age, but not that unlikely given everything else we must accept to make this world believable.