Thanks. Very good. Some aren't quite what I imagined, but I can see how they fit the descriptions although Taim looks too bookish to me. And Graendal... oh my. The author took 'barely opaque' as 'not opaque at all.' Oh my.

Anyway, sorry for waffling off topic. Since this thread concerns Tuon, here's a nice one of her here (I couldn't get the IMG tag to work):

Clickety click

I think her hair should be even shorter though as it only grows to a fuzz when with Mat.

Hm. With shorter hair, this is basically how I pictured her and her "strong" nose:

That picture fits her much better! I haven't seen that before. Thanks for posting it.

...that's supposed to be Faile? Oops... always thought it was one of the Seanchan, never really put a name on who it was though, guess that wouldn't make much sense to have a random Seanchan up there  :) oh well.

I don't understand, doesn't Faile have a hawk nose?

I'm sure it's meant to be her as I don't know of any other main characters who look similar. Her nose is described as 'strong', so I imagined it being fairly long although not overly so (but obviously we all have our own differing mental images of these characters). Actually, I don't think that picture is far wrong in that aspect considering we're seeing her straight on rather than at the side.

You can't say they are still practicing "racism" and say it is just on "cultural" grounds.  "Race", as it was enacted, developed and holds to European Colonialism's roots, is based on assumed physical and, almost genetic, attributes.  Where-as, the problem is that some adhere to a racial category on what you could call almost cultural grounds, they still base it on physical roots and non-cultural traits.  Cultural differences are sometimes attributed to "ethnicity" now, and that might be the closest thing to WOT universe, but it stil doesn't hold well.

Thing is, race is very much a classification we place upon ourselves. I.e DNA pretty much shows that the genes that specify as racial characteristics (skin colour, eye-folds, etc) take up a minimum of the information.

In WoT they discriminate based on assumed characteristics based on national origin, occupation, or history.  Physical attributes are only utilized in ways of connecting them to the root of national origin, not vice versa (which is how race plays out. Physical is always the root, even if just a cultural category).

That was basically what I was saying. Their prejudice is based more on culture than physical characteristics. Either way it's finding something different and foreign in someone else and discriminating against it. Feel free to substitute 'racism' for 'prejudism' if you wish.

The issue isn't the existence of very dark skinned Andorans, or Andorans being described specifically as being black, including RJ's 'tightly curled hair', et cetera.  What I take issue with is that all characters being described as 'dark' or even 'very dark' are being described as 'black people' as Kadere contests.

I agree with that. I don't automatically count everyone RJ describes as 'dark skinned' as black. (I certainly didn't visualise Rahvin being that way.) I do count Tuon as something like an African in appearance as she is described as looking like a 'porcelain doll'. The same seems to be true for Anath/Semirhage, although I forget her hair type.

It's also in no way ridiculous to attempt to draw parrallels between what's in the WoT and what's in the real world as RJ clearly and openly drew upon real world inspiritations for the sake of verisimilitude.

I agree to some extent, but I think it's clear that not all races fit clearly into the main ethnic groups we have in our world. Take Saldaeans for example. They're described as  having tilted eyes which suggests East Asian appearance. However their skin colour appears to be fair with strong noses*. (Actually, I don't think their skin colour was ever described, but I assume this simply because when Seanchan of the East Asian type appeared, honey coloured skin seemed a novelty.) I'm of the opinion the Sea folk are a distinct race all to themselves having skin often as dark as Africans but differing facial features and straight hair. I have seen many Indians who fit that profile.

That certainly doesn't contradict what we see in our world though as race has always been fluid. (Take India as an example. Indians are sometimes stereotyped as being brown skinned, lighter than Africans, darker than Europeans or Arab for that matter. In fact their skin colour can range from a light olive brown, like Spanish to as dark as someone from Africa. I've even heard accounts of some Indians in the past having blue eyes.) The races of today are quite possibly the result of the interracial mixing of the past.

As for racism,  it certainly does exist in the WOT world. It doesn't seem to be predicated as much (I say 'as much' as certain racial slurs have been listed, as you've said.) on physical appearance as our world in the past though. It's more cultural. Even the prejudice against Rand by Masema for his Aiel like appearance was due mainly to the fear people hold the Aiel due to their prowess in battle and perceived barbarity. Masema, a Shienaran, has faced them in battle and thus has this prejudice.

*Incidentally, I feel that picture of Faile that appears in the top left corner from time to time to be incorrect as it seems to be patterned on a more generic east Asian appearance particularly in skin colour. From that world's perspective she just looks like one of the races of Seanchan (bearing in mind the Seanchan are actually a diverse people not one specific race), rather than Saldaean. It is a beautiful picture though.

I don't know about the Americans you've been around.... but as an American, I can say I've never heard someone pronounce Thomas with a 'th' sound  ;)

Not a whole lot to be honest, and I think that was mainly from the TV.

I'm certain it's more commonplace over there than over here though. Just goes to show the regional variations within a country too I guess!

Did anyone else pronounce Thom with an emphesis on the "Th"? It wasn't until like the second or third book until I realized it was supposed to be "TOM".

I think I went with 'Tom' from the start. Mind you I live in England where I'm used to the pronunciation of 'Thomas' as 'Tom-as'. (Last syllable more like 'ehs' than 'as'. I noticed Americans send to pronounce Thosmas with the 'th' as in 'thump' which, to be fair, does make logical sense. (We always write the short form of 'Thomas' as 'Tom' not 'Thom' for some reason.

As for pronunciations I tend to look them up. For some reason I keep thinking of 'Aes Sedai' as 'Ayez seh-daye' rather than the actual pronunciation 'Eyez Seh-deye' (assuming 'eye' is pronouced the same as the name for the round things we see through.)

Moiraine I pretty much pronounced correct from start 'Mwah-rain.' I didn't have a problem with Moi pronounced 'mwah' what with French and all.

Moghedien, I tend to think of as Mogh-hed-ee-en. The first syllable rhyming with the Scottish 'Loch'. ('ch' in celtic languages are pronounced hard. Like 'gh' in German, I believe. Like the sound some football (Soccer, in American) players make when they're clearing their nose.) Not 'Oh'.

I also didn't have too much of a problem with pronouncing all those syllables as I read a book concerning Celtic pronunciation and they tend to follows those rules. Unfortunately RJ doesn't stick to those rules though! Just when I think I should be pronouncing 'Cadsuane' 'Cad-swah-nee' I find out it's actually pretty much the English 'Cad-Swayn'. And Suian would probably be 'Swee-ahn' if it were like a celtic word rather than 'Swahn'.

Ael is 'Eye-eel'

The glossary is pretty good with pronunciation at least in the earlier books. Rhuidean I couldn't quite work out though. I keep wanting to pronounce it (following those celtic rules) 'roo-ih-dee-an.' According to the glossary it's 'Rhuy-dee-ahn.*' How do you pronounce 'Rhuy'? 'Roy?'

*Or something like that, being too lazy to check. I know the first syllable was 'Rhuy'.

Oh, and irrelevant but as for the word 'yank', in Britain we do use the term often as a slang word for 'American'. It tends to mean all Americans in general here rather than just those of the northern states as it does in the USA. It's just a regional variation thing really. If I said 'cockney' I'd imagine Americans think of all Londoners right? (Come to think of it I think some people elsewhere in England ('oop north') think of us Londoners the same way.) Over here it actually refers to those in or from the East End of London specifically. I grew up in South East London, so don't quite qualify as a cockney. ;)

Could it be in one of the "strange worlds" that Egwene saw in her travels in dreamland?

Maybe our earth was one of her "strange worlds"?

During his trip to Falme, Rand saw thousands of parallel possibilities.

He, Huron (sp?), and Loial traveled in a parallel dimension to get ahead of Padan Fain to get the horn back.

 

Maybe Randland is not Earth.

Even if our world were one of the 'strange worlds' or it would still be Earth. The way I understand it they're all earths, just Earths where things happened differently. You mention parallel possibilities yourself.

I could be wrong about that though. I'm thinking of those strange animals the Seanchan use, wild versions of which are found on another world. (I think Jordan mentioned once the domesticated versions were brought over from there rather than being indigenous to the Seanchan lands, but this hasn't been confirmed in print.) They have a markedly different physique to the vertebrates of our (and Rand's) world. Then again, their world is probably just a different Earth where certain forms evolved differently. I think this is most likely the case.

Concerning the nature of the wheel of time itself, how literally are we meant to take it? Is time literally a wheel in that the past is in also the very far future? Or is it merely symbolic of the fact that certain events have a tendency to repeat themselves. I'm thinking particularly of the points where Ba'alzamon speaks of having faced Rand again and again throughout time. The implication is that things change, as do their names, etc, Llews Therin, etc.

Unless Olver is Rand Al Thor Reborn.

Ok that's confusing.

I actually suspected that Olver might be a gholam. I.e there were three made (or was it five?), and we know that one looks like an ordinary man but the other 2 are unaccounted for. I thought maybe Olver's extraordinary ugliness might be a hint or something.

A gholam is more likely to look like an ordinary person though- someone who would blend into the background I guess. A little kid would be a perfect (and creepy) disguise though wouldn't it?

A rather daft idea I guess and I doubt it is right. He would probably have made a move on Mat by now I would think. Unless he figures theres no rush since theres spying to be done and lots of people to eat...... ;)

Yeah, I'm going with the hints concerning the Tower and the Eelfinn etc...