26 minutes ago, tkarrde421 said:

Interesting post, but I'm confused on if you're asking what you'd change about Randland or about the books?  If you're talking about the books, I couldn't disagree with you more.  You NEED villains.  And a villain that makes you vocal while reading about them for the first time, is a win.  I remember enjoying my first read of the WoT, but it wasn't until we finally meet the Seanchan that I had a "holy cr*p" moment!  This was something new and surprising and downright evil.  The fact that they have a rational justification for treating people like animals makes it that much more despicable to me.  And also that much more enjoyable to watch them fail.

 

If I could change one thing about the books, however, it would be pacing.  After Lord of Chaos, the series seems to have become a little wordy.  I enjoy backstory as much as anybody, but Jordan started adding new names at astonishing rates. There were times when I was sure that I was supposed to care... but didn't; just because I couldn't remember why the person we're reading about was important in any meaningful way.

Oh yes, I absolutely hated them after the second book and every attempt to humanise them fell on deaf ears. In fact it got worse after they introduced Tuon. Which in turn almost ruined Matt for me as I felt he never acknowledged how bad Tuon.

See I thought their  reasoning was flawed from the beginning. If you’re afraid of an atom bomb you don’t start bombing everyone. How is using channellers to murder people preventing their powers being abused? As opposed to the group of channellers who forsake violence against non-Darkspawn? Plus they aren’t rational. They needlessly, cruelly abuse their damane and (including Tuon) relish having that power over them. Which is sick and twisted. 

What I meant was that the villain should have got their comeuppance rather than being treated like one of the good guys who didn’t do any of the work and took all the credit.

Personally I would say no for a few reasons.

Damame can’t link and they don’t have an Adam that works on men. Whereas you have a much larger and more proficient Aes Sedai including male channelers. Given that the series laid so much stress on “men and women working together are stronger” this seems to be a glaring weakness of the Seanchan. In Memory of Light, a group of male and female channellers destroy a whole army of Trollocs. So the Seanchan could learn new abilities but they would be totally outclassed and the numbers and skill advantage they had would wane after Memory of Light. Even during the books, male channellers demolished the Suldam with embarrassing ease. Female channellers main strength comes from their ability to link. So by definition, Seanchan channellers should be much weaker if they insist on using the Adam on them. This didn’t come in to play during the books because they had numbers and experience. 

In conventional forces its difficult to say because the number of Seanchan is unclear. However it’s implied to be greater than that of the rest of Randland and the Aiel combined. This army seems to be disciplined and has a solid officer corps. It also has monstrous mounts at its disposal. Plus, it’s very likely that they would, as shown in Aviendhas vision, take gunpowder technology for themselves. So here they would still have an edge. The Seanchan defeated the Shaido Aiel and have a track record of beating any Randland army they fight. However, much of this can be ascribed to their use of Suldam. The quality of this infantry can also be questioned compared to some of the more elite formations such as the Borderlands knights, Two Rivers longbowmen and the Andorran army. The Aes Sedai also have their own army. So instead of a smattering of militia, you instead have many experienced and well trained soldiers used to fighting alongside each other. These armies performed extremely well in the last battle.

You would also have to consider the leaders. Basically they have Tuon and she is a Stateswoman and not a General. Most of her generals are depicted as competent. Matt is very unlikely to help her take more of Randland. However she would be facing Perrin and Elayne; two great leaders. Lan up in the borderlands with Nynaeve. 

We can also infer that the Seanchan prepared their invasion in advance with information from their scouts. So they only brought an army equal to the task of conquering Randland as they found it. The fact is that the events of the book transformed Randland into basically a collection of very strong kingdoms with a revitalised core of mages. 

It is also very likely that a tyrannical and despotic regime like the Seanchan would struggle to control and brainwash its own citizens. It would struggle to justify the maltreatment of Damane if, across the border and in living memory there are examples of channellers who literally saved the world and provide prosperity. Will the people of Ebou Dar submit to having their daughters taken into slavery and tortured? Rebellions have begun for far less cause than that in the real world. It would also have to introduce heavy controls to prevent information on the Suldam being channellers getting out. Such oppressive measures would stifle freedom and create resentment against the government. This, again would contrast with the benefits of a reunited white and black tower. It could mean a return to the prosperity of the ancient past. So they would rapidly overtake the Seanchan in technology and magic. Essentially, the Seanchan would be greatly weakened by trying to impose their way of life. Indeed, their occupation would probably end similar to the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe; refusing to change and falling behind until it implodes.

Personally I think the vision Aviendha saw was a warning and wasn’t a potential future; it assumed everything went wrong.

I would have had the Seanchan sign a treaty agreeing to return home and release all the slaves they held. This would be a mercy for having taken part in the Last Battle. This would be grey as you would be pardoning the war crimes of their leaders and other acts which are greater than many of the characters allied with the Dark One. So there would be no justice for the victims but the war could end peacefully.

Instead you see an evil empire covering half the continent that we know could go genocidal and dash everything that was sacrificed in the war. Plus they keep all their slaves. I still do not understand how that is a satisfying end to their story. Tuon is a monster. She’s barely any different to the Forsaken and point blank refuses to change her ways despite being told the truth. She is a rank hypocrite who revelled in having power over other people. 

A scene I was hoping for but didn't have high hopes was for HotH Hawkwing to speak to Tuon and reveal how they were manipulated/corrupted by Ishy.

It really is strange. All te other manipulations of the Forsaken are undone and righted at the end of the series. But not for Seanchan where te rot is left.

I ve read different things about this. Did RJ plan to write a book with Matt and Tuon. I saw a few quotes saying he wasn't going do books with the same characters or even same world.

It felt really odd that plot points set up in te second book regarding the Seanchan never amounted to anything since only Tuon learned about the lies and decided to stay the course. Because she's evil.

If he did then my assumption is that people would find out that Tuon is a channeled and use that to justify deposing her. Which would compel Tuon, along with Matts influence, into changing her mind.

One thing I have heard people say is that Rand has to make a tough choice. Yes. But really it should be a tough decision joining a former enemy who WERE slaving imperialist scum. Not joining people who ARE still doing all of those things. It's not necessary for Rand to have this moral dilemma that this point has to be conceded or that Tuon is as unrepentant as she is. I don't know, maybe RJ planned to have the Seanchan change but decided it was more powerful to have Rand make a concession for the greater good.

They are probably the single worst thing about the Wheel of Time for me. But I have to wonder what RJ wanted from this group.

On the face of it, they're pretty generic. You have a powerful secondary threat being manipulated by the primary enemy and the heroes goal is to get them on side. The Geth from Mass Effect are a good example of this.

So as I was reading and introduced to them I assumed that the books would follow this pattern. We'd purge the corrupting characters, get rid of the evil practices like enslaving channellers and then they get to be awesome and help the heroes.

This is not what happens. Instead, RJ has events transpire in which our heroes go cap in hand to this superpower and beg them to join with no conditions or concessions because they can't win. They keep the lands they stole, they keep their slaves and make no admission of all the suffering they inflict on tens of thousands of innocent.

This is a faction which is an active antagonist into the last three books. They commit horrible acts of barbarism and cruelty which we are made vividly privy to in the second book. We are left under no illusion that these are anything other than one dimensional villains.

Worse there's a whole subplot about the Suldam and Damane both being channellers and Tuon being one. That plot goes nowhere. Not only does it go nowhere but we have her make a justification so dumb that it destroyed that character for me. She says "oh I may be a channeller but I don't use the power so I am a good person". This completely ignores the fact that Suldam are rounded up indiscriminately, regardless of if they have ever channeled, plus her people's mentality assumes that all channellers are subhuman and automatically evil. By that logic she is a subhuman and evil regardless of anything she says. It's a position that is so stupid and contradictory that I assumed that surely RJ is setting her up to change her mind later on and realise how wrong she was. But no, instead Rand has to concede to her pathetic, truly pathetic justification for her societies barbarism.

Let's take te Whitecloaks. This is an evil faction who are antagonists. They almost get destroyed during the books and get what's coming to them. But Galad saves the order and sets them on the right path redeeming them. This is not what happens with the Seanchan. They remain as cruel, evil and hypocritical as when they first showed up. Rather than something just where they suffer and die for all of the horrible and monstrous things they've done, instead they are rewarded with a vast empire, a people untouched by war and having Rands blessing to go about their business like its normal.

If RJ didn't want the Seanchan to make any concessions, then why in book 2 did he put so much focus on how horrible they were to Egwene or even have the enslaving and torturing channellers? Just make them generic conquerors like the Tsuranani from Magician. It's a validation of everything they do to let them carry on doing it and it feels wrong that this goes unpunished. That nobody pays for the abuses and cruelty of this faction. At least he could have pinned that evil behaviour on the influence of the Darkness instead of making Tuon AS BAD as them. Literally the only difference is that she eventually joins Rand. Also, why bother with the subplot about the Damane being channellers if nothing ever comes of that?

If it was me I would have had the Darkspawn massacre everyone on their continent whilst their army was away enslaving innocent people and then Rand tells them to go home after the last battle. Instead of rewarding Imperialism and slavery.