5:06 pissed off that I couldnt get a successful call through to my doctors office until 5:02 when they close at 5. now I have to wait till tomorrow. 

422 PM

applying to jobs. hopefully gonna find one soon. also taking short breaks to read You Only Live Twice. The last Fleming Bond novel I havent read. Very bitter-sweet

540 pm, just got back from chicago, about to go out and wash the car

Ok I get the problem now. not so much how they got there but how they stayed hidden. 

I think that trollocs and shadowspawn in general are just really good at keeping themselves off the radar and tracking, because as Im sure you remember from the second book, They managed to sneak up on Fal Dara, and completely infest the place for some time before anyone even noticed there were freaking trollocs everywhere. It just seems unlikely since he always describes them as snarling beasts, but they seem to be pretty stealthy, and the Fades seem to be actually pretty intelligent. There are a few other situations where them having this skill makes sense (in the two rivers in book 4 for one), so I think if they wanted to tail rands group at a distance until striking at night I think they could have done it.

It seems like a real stretch since most of that group were Aeil, who are badasses and love killing shadowspawn, but I think thats just what we have to accept IMO.

1220am, trying to get to sleep so I'll have energy to start a 9 hour drive 5 hours from now. But of course sleep eludes me. 5 hour energy is my friend. I guess I'll have to figure something out for the other 4 hours XD

This last month I've finished the alchemist, and read dragon summer, a relatively new book in a series I read as a child, reread To Kill a Mockingbird, I started The Dark Tower with The Gunslinger, which was VERY different than I thought it would be but really good. I just finished Knife of Dreams, and have started the next Dark Tower book with The Drawing of the Three. Really in love with this new series.

I'm planning on reading Ian Fleming's You Only Live Twice next. Drawing close to the end of his books. A sad thing to think about.

I dont think there was ever an instance of shadowspawn using portal stones to get around. You need to be able to channel to use portal stones, and with channelers like Rand barely able to understand how to use them (and he only learned through trial and error), the only people who could use them to transfer shadow spawn would be either someone of the Black Ajah who was instructed how to do it somehow, or possibly one of the forsaken who might know how to use them from the age of legends, so it could have been asmodean, but i dont know how he found time to get away and do that, not to mention at that point he was already shielded by Lanfear, and i doubt he would be able to channel enough to transport legions of shadowspawn. but i guess thats the only thing that makes sense.

The much better question to ask is how the hell those thousands of trollocs got into the Stone of Tear at the beginning of the book. Lanfear confirms that Sammael sent them if I remember right, but I dont remember if they explained how they got into the invincible fortress in huge numbers, espcially since they cant go through gateways. Was that ever explained?

10:35 just made my mom some good old breakfast in bed. Now I have to choose between the job search and FFIX.

Another thing........

 

Either very near the end of POD, or at the start of WH, Sorilea leads five or six Aes Sedai, who are also D'tsang, in to see Rand, and they are allowed to swear fealty to him.

It at least is presented as being an undecided outcome at the beginning, and should events have transpired differently some or all of the shamed ones may have been sanctioned to varying degrees, up to and including stilling/execution.

 

So who held their Shields?

Not the Power-weak Sorilea, on all of them, I'm sure.....

Well if the Aeil are really good at anything other than combat, its completely whipping people. Those Red sisters were the ones who tried to take Rand to the WT if I remember correctly, so the wise ones would have made their life a living hell for doing that to the Car'a'carn, and honestly would have broken them pretty easily. And there are multiple examples in the book of Aes Sedai waiting to even speak until they got approval from the wise ones who had taken them as apprentices, when Aes Sedai (especially Reds) think themselves above everybody, so their control over people is pretty absolute.

My point is, unless they specifically said they were shielded at the time, even if them swearing fealty was an unsure thing at first, they probably werent shielded at all. Im sure other wise ones than Sorilea shielded them during their punishments near the tents, but theres no way Sorilea would have brought them before the Car'a'carn unless they were broken down enough that they wouldnt even think of trying to channel in that room. Its not like they could kill Rand with their oaths, and it wasnt like they were going to be able to successfully smuggle him out of the castle a second time with just the 5 of them, so Rand really wasnt in any danger at all.

I'm not sure I can think of others who" fell in love with men all of a sudden"...

Egwene, when she has virtually no interaction with Gawyn, gets laid in his dream, and then hes the love of her life when they meet like the next day. I guess he just wanted egwene to have a love interest.

Also Rand and Elayne. He literally met Elayne one time for like 15 minutes when he fell over the garden wall in EotW, and then when he met her again in the Stone (they were both in Falme at the same time but i cant remember if they met), theyre suddenly love birds stealing kisses, and this is after Elayne has already been talking about Rand incessantly, and was ecstatic that Egwene surrendered any claims to him while they were in the white tower. they met for 15 minutes. The rest of Elaynes horrible character is about how she has to try and be strong and composed to be a good queen and follow in her mothers footsteps. And I really hope that Rand's taveren powers werent used to bend the fabric of reality around him so that he could get laid. Cause that would be pretty awesome lame.

Lan and Nynaeve were pretty quick too, but for some reason I believed that more. They were both strong people, although Nynaeve was aggressive and Lan was quiet. As soon as Nyneave was proud of her tracking skills in EotW, and then Lan managed to sneak up on her, and they were both mutually impressed with their skills, I knew they were gonna hook up at some point. plus who else would be able to put up with Nynaeve. I guess I get it from Nynaeves side, but i dont really get it from Lans side, so I guess that doesnt really help my argument lol.

I think I was thinking less of actually falling in love, and the being in love. Like all women of all personalities reacted to being in love the same way (besides avihenda and Faile). Min, Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene, Theres all times where theyre doing important or unrelated things and he describes them as having to push off sexual or otherwise romanic thoughts about their men, and then angrily insist that they wont let Rand/Gawyn/Lan interfere with their work or make them act like fools. The guys obviously have thoughts of their significant women all the time, but it seems to make them be better. taking more caution, doing more heroic things, making the tough sacrifices. The way love changed peoples lives was it made men into bigger badasses, and made women have to fight off weird thoughts and try to deny they were in love at all unless they were behind closed doors. At least thats what I thought I picked up

hopefully this is the last time Ill post something actually relevant to this topic, but i cant believe I forgot to mention something. You can forget everything else I mentioned disliking so far in favor of this.

I really dont know how to describe it succinct way. But whenever Jordan (and maybe Sanderson carried this on, havent gotten that far) is writing the characters "thoughts" (third person omniscient narration of their thoughts), They always kind of repeat or quickly contradict themselves for emphasis, or maybe to show that they are in denial about something or arent really sure about it themselves.

ex: She would not allow herself to become woolheaded over some man. She would not. OR She was nervous to meet with so many nobles. Not because Rand would be there. Surely not. Mostly.

Dont know why both my examples had to do with Elayne and Rand but that's what came to mind. This just bugged me because it seems like something that "works" when youre talking aloud or to yourself but just made me cringe when I read it in a novel. I've never seen anything like that in any other novel I've read. Like its something my 5th grade English teacher would have marked me down for in an essay. I dont like it at all. 

Yeah I really didnt word my thoughts quite right. I was off track with the "no names the same" thing. My complaint can be summed up as "I couldnt keep all the damn names straight, when the complex plot demanded I keep them straight."

I did know that names from Kandor like Yukiri, and the other borderlands were more strongly based on asian names, and I never had any problem with Birgittes name, which I also knew about and appreciated. That was another example of me grasping at straws trying to find an excuse as to why the names were so hard for me. 

It was just the fact that there were so many tertiary characters whos quests and descriptions I was supposed to remember across multiple ~800 page books when their subplots were only mentioned in the prologues. For example, Im reading book 11 right now. Spoilers i guess. There was a chapter about a grey sister named Beonin (i think) who sneaks into the WT to talk to Elaida for some reason that hasnt been revealed yet.

Every chapter like this makes me think "ok, so has he mentioned Beonin before?" she could have been involved in the main plot directly for like 4 books with him making note of her one time, and now shes doing something important and that bugs me. And its a valid question because Jordan loves to talk about some random Aes Sedai's doings in a prologue for like 4 pages, then never mention them again until the prologue of the next book, 800 pages later, and expects me to remember who "Toveine" was and what she was last doing just at the drop of her name, when i have 1000 other named characters to worry about. that was what really got me going. And it just got worse as the story went on and he started writing prologues that literally took up 1/8 of the whole book. 

And statistics be damned. Im still going to gripe about Saerin and Sarine, because even if its statistically probable thered be some people with similar names who have to deal with eachother, Jordan obviously has complete control over everything. So him choosing to have two sisters with anagram names deal with eachother all the time is just a dick move, and you really cant convince me otherwise.

And ive never heard anyone defend the women in the books before. I thought he portrayed alot of them as overly conceited and somewhat incompetent a lot of the time. And I really didnt like how quickly they would just fall in love with men all of a sudden, and then spend 3 books trying to deny it to themselves, before melting in their arms. He just made it seem like even the strongest, most independent women just melt helplessly when it comes to being attracted to a man. I know this is fantasy, but come on. When you have like 8 different romantic relationships, 6 to 7 of them shouldnt play out the same way.

yeah that was the one big flaw in the brown/white. "lets dedicate our lives to the pursuit of knowledge, but then not share it with anyone (other than the white tower)". I always wondered why there were not like Brown Aes Sedai centers of learning at least in the major cities.

Like youd think at least the philosophical whites would realize the value of sharing knowledge with the world, but I guess Aes Sedai stuck-up-ness trumps all other character traits.

just a few weeks a year. Even us academics have to stretch our legs every now and then. and with the borderlands constantly having to deal with hordes of demons I couldnt think of a more altruistic way to spend that time. or a more badass one. Id at least try it out once. how could you resist the one opportunity to just go nuts with the OP? its like when youre playing StarWars Battlefront and playing as a soldier, and the game asks "Would you like to play as Obi-wan Kenobi?" Who says no in that situation? Like I said (and like you kinda said), noone in the real world is going to fit one of the Ajahs as perfectly and stereotypically as all the Aes Sedai in the books. 

Like Im sorry but the way the main characters use the OP in the books, it seems like it would be basically impossible to be killed when battling ANYTHING that couldnt also channel, including an entire army of monsters.

And to be honest, I dont remember that remembrance room thing. Like not even a little bit. Im surprised Id forget something like that. Is that mentioned in one of the earlier books?

hopefully my PS2 game metaphor was effective.

Haha of course i picked up on the sex bit, but I figured that the battle Ajah thing wasnt complete BS. I mean even as a Brown, if I could channel I'd schedule a few weeks a year to travel to the Borderlands and just vaporize like 3000 Trollocs. 

But that has to be my biggest gripe is the childish way the sexes (At least the wonder girls) seem to view each other throughout the  series.

yeah I think that is the issue. its very weird that we have some really close cross-gender relationships that he actually expand on alot, like Perrin and Faile, or Mat and Tuon, or Rand and Min/Avihendra (he never really expanded on Rand and Elayne's relationship, that felt kind of tacked on to be honest), and obviously Aes Sedai are close to their Warders, if not in an emotional way in public, but other than that the two genders cant ever seem to get along, especially in a professional setting. Weird there would be no inbetween. Even friends of opposite genders dont trust or try to understand eachother, even if they feel some obligation to them. Even in Tanchico where they have a king and a panarch, they both live in their own separate palaces on opposite ends of the city, and dont really consult eachother as far as I remember. 

I feel like I always was aware of that, but never really knew it until just now.

Green firstly

could you elaborate on that a little? I never got the point of the Green Ajah to be honest.

I mean they're whole thing is that they're the "battle ajah", and they bond alot of Warders, but the books say so many times that no aes sedai has been involved in battle since the Trolloc wars, and of course theres the whole Oath thing, so the battle ajah didnt seem to do a whole lot of battling, and they placed alot of emphasis on the last battle, which 99.9% of all green ajah members didnt even live to see, so what did they even do to occupy their 300 year lives that was green ajah based? If they were tough and battle-loving I really never understood why every green sister didnt spend 100% of her post shawl life in the Borderlands killing thousands of Trollocs a day. And none of them seemed to ever choose that route, which confused me.

Im sure this topic has been posted before. It would be weird if it hadn't been. And I know there's even a SG where people choose an ajah for site purposes, but I assume that that has at least a little RP element to it.

So all role playing aside, and ignoring which Ajah you liked the most from the books, if there were actually a White Tower (and assuming being in a different universe youd have the exact same personality, likes, dislikes, etc) , and of course assuming you could channel, what Ajah do you think you would actually choose? Of course I dont expect any real person so be as stereotypical and cut and dry as any of the Aes Sedai Jordan wrote, but still.

This applies to women and men, even though there were never any ajahs for men. In fact mostly men, since i really wonder if many men who read the books think about how they would fit into a strictly female organization, or if that was just me. 

I think Blues have the best cause (mostly because its vague as hell), and it would be cool to use magic to save the world, but if I was being honest with myself, Id choose Brown. I love learning, I love reading, and I work best solo. Plus you are of an small percentage of the population who can channel the power that causes time and space itself to exist. Not to mention you have a super long life and unrestricted access to any library in the world. Why would you not want to dedicate your life to figuring out what you can do with that power? I know not all browns study the OP, but it doenst make sense that they dont. If you have all those traits i listed, and a thirst for knowledge and love for research, why would you choose to study plants, or what ever else they like to study? Plus no one ever questions a browns intentions, so if i wanted to get away with some Blue type actions now and again, I could get away with it.

I almost would choose White, because I think Im a very logical person, and love philosophy and love a good debate, and hate when people bring emotion into arguments, but the Brown is just the best fit. I also thought the Whites were just the lamest Ajah. They were just logical, and didnt have any ultimate reason for existing, like the browns pursuit of knowledge, or the greys goals of peace and cohabitation, or even the Reds weird goal of protecting the world from dangerous men. 

yeah i forgot about the children of the light. but theyre an independent malitiant group. even though they technically controlled amadacia, they didnt have any alliance or answer to any nation. so im not sure how that reflects on societies views on men as a whole. but on average everyone does hate the whitecloaks, although that's more related to the fact that their an organization of self-important, power-hungry assholes than to their male-ness. 

Good points on Tear and Illian and Tarabon though. while i purposefully didnt mention Tarabon i honestly forgot about the other two.

I guess the argument can be made for either side, but I still think the women outweigh the men.

and honestly (coming full circle to go completely opposite from the original intention of the thread), thats one of my favorite things about the books. As poor of a job as Jordon does representing womens behavior and personalities, it's really refreshing to have a world where it's not automatically patriarchal. It seems like fantasy leans towards men more often than even other genres, so I liked having a world with so many important powerful women in charge. 

1. I am faroresdragn, which is why i responded.

2. @jack i understood you werent making a statement, i was trying to give my opinion on the answer in the first post where i quoted you.

3. then in that other post i was explaining that i was talking about the real world in response to jack's question. 

... i was just saying there was a definite reason for that. jack said was it even rational for the men to be put down because of the breaking, and i used the real world as an example that people can be made less in society for much less rational reasons then for all intents and purposes ending the world. or that cultural attitudes dont need a rational basis.

i guess it would have been clearer if i wrote asked instead of said. 

does that clear things up?

didnt mean to get so off topic.

@faroresdragn,

"...this was the fallout from the breaking

When men were generally distrusted..."

Why?why distrust 95 percent of the men in randland for something they had nothing to do with?

Is it even rational?

it seems like you did, unless i misunderstood somehow

There is some level of gender equality for the most part i guess, at least when it comes to them interacting day to day or having roughly the same career opportunities maybe, but you cant say that the world isnt matriarchal on the whole. And the villiage council and the womens circle is the prime example of that. the villiage counsil, made up of men, is described as having little to no actual power, and that the womens circle just lets them believe that they have a say in things. its the womens circle you go to when youre in trouble. 

There are more powerful women then there are powerful men, with Aes Sedai being all women, and the amerlyn being essentially the most powerful person on the planet. And even beyond channeling, women are more often than not more highly ranked than men: the wise ones among the aeil dont answer to clan chiefs, and are above blood fueds, and although all women who can channel are forced into the wise ones, thats not a requirement, and many who cant channel have more authority than those that can. also among the aeil men arent even allowed to own property. and the one societal advantage that men would usually have over women, being able to fight or be soldiers, is shared with women among the aeil. not to mention the "men dont have a say in the polygamal marriage" thing. In the Sea Folk,only women can have the most important positions, with the highest male position being not very important from what i could pick up. the master of blades didnt seem to be in charge of much besides trade, and even then he could probably be overridden in trade by the mistress of ships. The Seanchan are ruled by their Empress, who rules absolutely. The countries where youd think men would be the most dominant would be the borderlands, where their lives are based on constant war, and unlike with the aeil, the women dont fight. and even there the men lots of times defer to women, and women are supposed to be fierce and strong and saldea at least is ruled by a queen, although im not sure if thats a set thing like in Andor. 

definitely most if not all societies lean toward women being in charge. i was just saying there was a definite reason for that. jack said was it even rational for the men to be put down because of the breaking, and i used the real world as an example that people can be made less in society for much less rational reasons then for all intents and purposes ending the world. or that cultural attitudes dont need a rational basis.

@faroresdragn,

"...this was the fallout from the breaking

When men were generally distrusted..."

Why?why distrust 95 percent of the men in randland for something they had nothing to do with?

Is it even rational?

Why in the real world were >95% of women generally distrusted and treated as second class citizens or even semi-property until relatively recent times in most cultures? And also proclaimed as sources of sin and corruption at least in many monotheistic religions? Historically, women have been treated alot worse in the real world then men are treated in Randland, and real world women werent even responsible for reshaping the entire world beyond recognition, killing billions of innocents, and destroying all modern civilization as we know it and sending us back to the stone age. 

So the way I see it, the men in Randland got off hella easy. You dont really need a rational reason behind a cultural mindset. Many times its just an attitude that develops over time. Like how human beings are ashamed/ostracized when they are naked in public even when it's warm enough for us to be comfortable naked outside. The only rational reason for us wearing clothes is because we dont have the fur or blubber other animals have to protect us from the elements or maybe to protect us from injury (like pads or boots), but that wont stop most societies from being offended by it or saying it's wrong for you to be nude in public when its sunny and 72.

But again, if in the past for some reason a nudist colony had caused all civilized nations to be literally ground into dust for a straight century, then there would be a completely rational reason for it.

Likewise with how Mat, Thom etc. see the women as basically children unable to hold their own (even though they can all channel) and don't trust their judgment.

 

 

 

Mat seems to not realize channelers can take out fighters who are much stronger than them, but unable to channel. He believes Aviendha and Birgitte can hold their own because they can also fight in the "proper" way, but constantly seems to forget the other women can channel.

 

I agree they baby them a little too much, but it kind of made sense. There was never an important situation where channeling got everyone out quick and easy, since they were usually facing other channelers. I mean, as they say many times in the series, theres a reason why Aes Sedai have Warders, even though they are basically the cockiest mfers alive. there's just many situations where you need good old physical strength/skill to get you out of a sticky situation. As evidenced by all the times people like Thom and Mat got channelers like Nynaeve and Elayne out of situations where they were pretty much screwed. especially with Mats immunity to the OP, but thats besides the point.

Exactly, that's one thing I wish RJ would of done differently was the whole man/woman interaction and behavior towards the other.  Also another curious behavior the main characters seem to have.  All the men have to be forced/reluctantly take command where all the women have the attitude they should be in charge.

 

 

 I always figured that this was the fallout from the Breaking, where men were generally distrusted, and the world fell from a society of equals (or maybe even a patriarchal society) to a mainly matriarchal one, since all the most powerful people in the world (aes sedai) were from a society made entirely of women, it just seems like women naturally taking charge was just how the world was.