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I wear the hadori

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  1. Yet another topic which is sadly untouched for a year and a half. Come back everyone please! So here's my VERY LONG and tortuous take on the ending - congratulations to anyone who manages to get through it: Obviously RJ/BS left the ending very open deliberately. People can decide for themselves what the next few years/4th Age will bring and unless your theories are really really stupid, then it's not really possible to be wrong, because there is no right answer. To that end I choose to take the most optimistic view possible, basically as close to a happily ever after as the ending allows. Apart from the fact that it makes me feel better inside, I justify it on the basis that the end of the Second Age saw the world truly torn apart, with a centuries-long geological apocalypse. IMO, the end of the Third Age is about reconciliation and bringing people together - in this interpretation, Rand 'breaks' the world by breaking all former ties (e.g. new role for the Aiel, uniting Andor and Cairhien, the Dragon Peace etc.etc.) On the characters themselves, this is what I CHOOSE to believe (because ultimately it can't be more than that, unless Harriet changes her mind about more books), so if you disagree then fair enough. Rand - lives the gleeman life for a few years (say, 2-5 years), very content in his lack of burden (duty is heavier than a mountain). After the few years have passed he decides to meet up with the three women because you know OBVS. I believe that his new-found power is such that he CAN appear in his old body, and does so when he visits the women. I also believe he would reveal his survival to more people. Firstly, Nynaeve is on the verge of working it out already and we know she is unlikely just to let that one go. Secondly, Cadsuane knows (which always annoyed me), and while I believe she would keep it a secret, I also believe that he would visit her at some point to make sure she does. Thirdly, an absolutely crucial part of the epilogue for me is where it says that "JUST" Rand al'Thor wakes up. We know that rand al'Thor loves his father and is entirely aware of how important meeting his father was again to his ultimate victory (leading as it did to his revelation on Dragonmount) and how important Tam was generally in helping Rand become the man that defeated the DO. I therefore do not believe that Rand would let his father die thinking that he was already dead, so I think he visits Tam at some point, spending some time with him before he passes. On a similar note, Rand knows what a strong father figure did for him so I think it's unlikely he'd let his super-children grow up without him at all - though perhaps he would only reveal himself once they're old enough to know not to say anything). So I think his 6 children will grow up knowing him. In my head he appears as a father-like gleeman figure while they're young, similar to Thom merrilin in Elayne's youth, and then reveals the truth when they're a bit older. The people I think he would reveal himself to are, therefore: the 3 women, Tam, Cadsuane, Nynaeve and Lan (because Nyn will find out anyway and he trusts them both), Mat and Perrin (because he trusts them too, and likes them - he would probably want to spend some of his new life with friends and not just wandering indefinitely, right?) and his children. Also, possibly Moiraine though I'm undecided on that - they'd already reconciled happily in AMoL and there's not much more for them to say to each other. The one thing that bothers me is that Avi and Elayne are going to live for another ~400 years and, we assume, Min isn't. (BUT: do we know for sure that Min doesn't get an extended life from her 'doomseeing', I appreciate it's a hell of an assumption on no evidence at all, but still, knowledge of people with her power seems pretty nonexistent even at the WT). So I like to think that he visits Min first and offers her the long life the others will have so that they can all spend the same time together and I see no reason why she wouldn't accept it (I told you I was taking the most optimistic view possible). Therefore the four of them live very long and happy lives together. Perrin - I think Perrin's arc is the most complete and happily ever after, right? Lord of the Two Rivers, happily married to the Queen of Saldaea. A life full of good leadership and kids, with not much interesting going on. The only other thing to add is that some people on this thread seem to think he can't be Lord of TR and 'King' of Saldaea at the same time because they're so far apart, but with Travelling I don't see why that would be a problem. Mat - The most interesting possibilities of the three ta'varen, which I think is not surprising because RJ was not done with his/Tuon's story. The obvious storyline for Outriggers is Tuon and Mat's attempt to reunify Seanchan. I think Min became Tuon's Doomsayer in AMoL as a precursor to her being a major character in Outriggers (and also to give her something to do during the LB), but given that we're not getting outriggers I've decided that Min can have a happy, peaceful life with rand in the Westlands. I think Mat and Tuon ARE eventually successful in unifying Seanchan and I think she would finally tell him she loves him - something which I think she didn't do in AMoL because their story hadn't yet finished. I also hold an optimistic view on the damane question. Despite what BS said, I think Hawkwing would have been unhappy about the slavery (it was only because of Ishmael that he hated AS right, I've seen threads that agree with my view on this: that BS forgot the events when answering the question). People seem to have an issue with Seanchan culture changing too much, but my riposte would be three-fold: Seanchan is a complete mess at the moment (thanks Semirhage) so cultural changes in the reunification are possible, if not likely. Secondly, the Empress is basically God to the Seanchan. If she says one day 'all damane are free', then that becomes the law. And thirdly, I don't see why an end to slavery could not be a part of Rand's general 'Breaking of the World'. So perhaps it would take a while but I believe we'd see the end of channeller slavery during Tuon's reign - though I'm less optimistic about dacovale... On ta'varen - many people seem utterly convinced the three are no longer ta'varen, which if I understand correctly, is based on a short passage of Perrin's where he thinks of Rand and no colours swirl and he thinks that maybe he's no longer ta'varen. But they were ta'varen for ages before the colours appeared so I don't see how this is definitive proof, and given my optimistic view, I think Mat and Perrin ARE ta'varen. I think that Rand is no longer a classic ta'varen, but rather a super-ta'varen who can alter the pattern consciously rather than in the uncontrolled unconscious way they all did before. Elayne & Avi - Long-serving and honourable Queen of Andor and Cairhien. I know she has a lot of haters for her borderline-suicidal nature but I always liked her and she IS a good queen when she's not putting herself in ridiculous danger. I think the Aiel would set up HQs around the Westlands, with a major one in Andor and in this way Avi and Elayne can be together. I am 100% in love with Aviendha so all my theories of her future involve her being very happy and awesome. I very, very firmly believe (separate from my love for her) that Avi's vision of a doomed Aiel was averted by her 'boon'. IMO that was the whole point, that Rand would leave the Aiel out of the Dragon peace thinking it was a reward not to bind them, but by not giving them a role he doomed them. Therefore by giving them a role he saved them. The 'remnant of a remnant' refers to the culture, not the people. The Aiel will be little like they were before - only a remnant. Sidenote: I think there's an analogy here with Aram. Like the Aiel he was a follower of the Way of the Leaf who betrayed his beliefs. But as Elyas points out to Perrin, Perrin didn't give him anything else to believe in, apart from his sword and killing. Therefore once Masema messed with his head Aram was a danger. Similarly, in Avi's vision, Rand hadn't given the Aiel a purpose, so they drifted aimlessly until the Seanchan killed them. By giving them a purpose he has saved them and Perrin could have done the same for Aram (I really feel like he's basically the only person that Perrin let down) I'm posting this now even though I have more to say on the WT and the BT and Malkier as this is already so long that I doubt anyone will read it :(
  2. Oh man, it's very sad for me to have recently finished the series and see how many of these threads have been dormant for a couple of years. :( I quite like that theory Kageryuu, it fits reasonably well with my own theory and in fact I may combine the two. So this thread is 30 pages long and I haven't read everything, and given how many Nakomi theories there seem to be I am sure this isn't original but it's what I think at the mo: We've seen throughout the series the man/woman duality in the universe, most obviously through the different aspects fo the One Power that they channel. So there always seems to be a balance. And yet the Dragon reborn is a man. So my theory is that the Wheel spins someone else out into the Pattern, a woman whose role is also vital, not necessarily to save the world as Rand's but to save certain people, to nudge the Pattern the way it should go rather than grabbing the Pattern by the scruff of the neck the way that Rand seems to. I would also argue that she perhaps has the same power that Rand has at the end of the epilogue - which is why Avi is so confused about what she sees. I think her role when appearing to Avi was to put doubts in Avi's mind such that Avi would enter the glass things again and see the destruction of the Aiel, and by seeing it be able to prevent it - which I believe she does by getting the Aiel to become Randland's superpolice. Then she appears again (imo, but unconfirmed) to save Rand after defeating the Dark Lord. By saving Rand she is effectively saving her replacement, a figure spun out by the Pattern who can alter the Pattern itself. The problem I have here is that this sort of implies that Rand will live to the end of the 4th Age and play a Nakomi role in whatever LB/Breaking style event happens then. Which I don't think will happen and doesn't fit into what I believe happens in the 4th Age. This part of the theory (rand as Nakomi's replacement) I am not very happy with and doesn't make that much sense. Which is where Kageryuu's theory could come in. Perhaps Tigraine was indeed woven back into the Pattern, in order to save her adopted people and her son. She would certainly have the motivation for it. Either way, I am personally convinced that Nakomi is a force for the LIght and do not agree with any of the DF/Forsaken theories at all.
  3. My prediction is that we may get something like this after the Companion is released. He doesn't have much to do with the Companion so IMO (and I have no actual evidence for this), he is waiting for the companion to be released so that his notes don't accidentally spoiler anything in it. Then he may release the notes. Though I agree with Paul and Azrayne too, maybe he is just too busy, he seems to be a remarkably prolific writer (take note GRRM!)
  4. Oooh, one other thing. I wouldn't have had Arangar/Halima be quite so damn useless. Giving the young Amyrlin headaches so she can't Dream properly, ooh aren't you evil. I mean come on, I've seen some people are unhappy about Demandred' grand plan not being grand enough, but seriously he's like Alexander the Great compared to Arangar.
  5. I know what you mean about Verin being a proper Aes Sedai - wise, willing to sacrifice herself for the greater good etc. Especially compared to many of them who seemed obsesses with WT politics almost right up to the LB. Egwene's death is the most interesting one for me. I've seen BS has said that her story arc meant she had to die and I would love to know exactly what he meant by that. Did he mean she had to die because Gawyn had just died, and their love was so strong there was no way for her to get through the LB realistically? OR was she fated to die from earlier, maybe from when Gawyn put on the Bloodknife rings? Or maybe when she chose Gawyn over Galad? Or was she fated to die because her name is like Guinevere and Guinevere always dies in all Arthurian legends? That one makes least sense to me as the Arthurian allusions are so loose - I can't find anything on Guinevere loving Gawain - it's always Arthur and Lancelot. I know Min has a viewing of Eg and gawyn having two paths, one leading to a long happy life, the other to death. I am just not sure exactly what decision is meant to have put them on the second path. So to sum up, I don't feel as if she did HAVE to die, and her survival would have meant it would be easier to be optimistic about the White Tower in the 4th Age. I also really like Gawyn, which my brief perusals of the WoT fandom sshows me to be a VERY unpopular opinion. It's definitely the part of the ending that bothers me the most. As a poster said above (sorry for forgetting your name) her death means that WT is the part of Randland we are most unsure over, apart from arguably Seanchan (I don't care about Shara). Assuming Cadsuane becomes Amyrlin, will she honour Egwene's changes - to the novice book, retirement into the Kin, exchange programmes with Wise Ones and Sea Folk? I like to think she will, but it's definitely hard to convince myself. So if I could make one MAJOR change to the book I would let Egwene survive. Having said that, she is IMO by far the biggest and most emotional death in the whole series so altering that may be too drastic. So for a smaller change, I wouldn't have had Cadsuane spot rand in the AMol epilogue. I take a very optimistic view of the 4th age - rand lives a long and happy life, splitting his time between Min, Avi and El, he visits his father and reveals his survival, he visits Nyn and Lan, Mat and perrin too and generally it's happy ever after. That's how I decided to think of the 4th Age. the major issue for me on this though is the Cadsuane point. She sees him and decides thats a useful bit of knowledge. If Randland falls apart in five years time, will she force him out of retirement, like some crappy cop movie? So if I could change one small thing, I wouldn't have had her see him.
  6. Hi folks, just finished the series for the first time (in a 6 week blitz that included a couple of sick days from work when I really couldnt put it down ) and had to join up hear and read what people were saying as there is now a huge emotional hole in my life. (OH Egwene noooooooooooooooo) Although I love many of the action scenes - especially Duma Wells, the cleansing of saidin and Rodel Ituralde doing his great captain thang in Saldaea when Rand sent him there - I find that, like the big softy I am, I reminisce most fondly on a lot of the love stories, so my favourite scenes include: 1. Sex igloo - not so much for the scene itself - though it is excellent - but I fell in love with Aviendha while reading, probably quicker than Rand did, so at this point I was punching the air. She is the shade of my heart. 2. The scene with Nynaeve from the merchant Malkieri POV after she's dropped Lan off at The World's End. Nynaeve is the other woman in this series that I love (well I love loads of them, but her and Avi especially), and this scene really gets me welling up: "Lan told me once that Malkier lives so long as one man wears the hadori in pledge that he will fight the Shadow, so long as one woman wears the ki'sain in pledge that she will send her sons to fight the Shadow. I wear the ki'sain, Master Aldragoran. My husband wears thehadori. So do you. Will Lan Mandragoran ride to the Last Battle alone?” Though any scene with Lan and Nynaeve together makes me happy. 3. Basically all of Mat's stuff with Tuon; I think that in their separate ways they have finally met their match, which is why they are such a great couple IMO. Mat was always a womaniser and although he initially spends time with her because of the Aelfinn prophecy, I think he pretty quickly realises how much he likes her. More than that, he normally resorts to a joke and a grin in order to get in women's good books, but that doesn't work as well with her so he has to try something new (like buying her a fancy horse because she likes horses, which I would wager is a heck of a lot more thought than he has ever given to a present for anyone else). Mat is obvs a very unreliable narrator ("I wonder who all the bad influences on Olver are") and so I decide to believe that he falls in love with Tuon quite quickly but justifies to himself all the time he spends with her as being due to the prophecy. This is the first woman we see him with where he expends a LOT of effort to help her or impress her or make her like him. For Tuon, she has spent her life being virtually worshipped by everyone below her in the social scale, and being an assassination target for the few people on her level. Trust is a pretty alien concept to her (except Selucia) - she thinks at one point about how strange it would be to have a companion who she doesn't have to fear will kill her. Then this guy comes along who she meets as Tylin's Toy - everyone assumes he's a bit of fluff. She also suspects almost immediately that she may marry him - she sees his fox/raven/moon ring the very first time they meet and there's all the times Mat spots her watching him in the Tarasin. Then she finds all this weird stuff about him - first his ashanderei in the Tarasin Palace with its ravens and old tongue inscription, then when they're travelling with circus she sees the power of his medallion and his leadership skills (re: Aes Sedai, sul'dam etc.), then when they meet up with the Band of the Red Hand, she sees he is a well-loved and tactically impressive general. As she says to Karede after she marries Mat - "he makes an onion look like an apple". And while his lack of respect for her position does grate her slightly, IMO it's a major part of what helps her trust him (it's such a suicidal move in Seanchan to not show respect to a member of the High Blood that someone who doesn't would appear to her to be without guile - at least in respect to endangering her). But to stop rambling my favourite scene of theirs is when Mat returns to Ebou Dar and saves her from the Grey Man. After saving her and before they get down and dirty, he asks her if she loves him: “An empress does not love,” she said. “I am sorry. I am with you because the omens state it so, and so with you I will bring the Seanchan an heir.” Mat had a sinking feeling. “However,” Tuon said. “Perhaps I can admit that it is… good to see you.” Well, Mat thought, guess I can take that. For now. I like to think that if we had ever got Outriggers, we would finally see, probably to the end of that series, Tuon telling Mat that she loves him. I think that's enough for now even though there are loads of other scenes I could add. Thank you RJ and BS for this amazing and exhausting series!
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