@Randlander123

Ok, that's overreacting a lot. Despite the R.J's dinamic of "men confused about women vs womens criticizing the men", this is more a general attitude than a general female opinion about men. Also, i don't see the female characters like arrogants, hypocritical or stupid. It seems to me that you're very angry with womens for some reason :/

Just angry with  the womens (har) of the story:) If you don't consider them arrogant and hypocritical - what do you consider arrogant and hypocritical? Truly, I do understand the basis of the arrogance and sexism considering the 3000 years of the taint and the brush tarring even men who can't channel and women being the sole safe users of magic for the same time, giving them the ultimate hold on power and that spilling over even to non channeling women. I do get it. It's just the sheer unrelenting repetitiveness on every single womens POV in this regard gets very old. It would have been nice if even one or two of the main female characters (the only POV's we consistently get to see) had grown and changed a bit. Nynaeve does a little bit but none of the others do in regard to their arrogance or sexism. My charge of shortsighted provincial stupidity actually applies to everybody, man or woman, despite nearly all the major characters saying that only fools expect strangers to not follow their own customs. Everyone is idiotic in that regard. 

But let me add fuel to the fire. The wonder girls are extreme ingrates also. Look at how many times they are saved by the guys and how long does their gratitude last? Usually about five seconds and they are right back to regarding the guys as irresponsible retarded boys. And their POV's always make it plain that they are absolutely furious that they feel they should be grateful and would almost rather have died or whatever rather than be beholden to a man.

It seems to me that very few characters of this series hate the opposite gender.  most characters to me seem to respect the opposite gender.

 Really? Serious question - are you joking? No, none of the men hate women with the exception of the mentioned riverboat captain and all the men respect (or fear) all the  women whether channeler or no. Of course, this only applies to men on the side of the light - all male darkfriends seem to hate and wish to harm women - that's one easy way to identify darkfriends. But there is not a woman, light or dark,  in the books that has more than a shred of respect for any man and not one who has even that shred for men in general. Name me one passage in 14 books that any women thinking about or talking to a man does not precede or follow that without fool man, idiot man, stupid man or some other denigrating comment? The men may think - gee, women sure are strange and mysterious and I'll just never understand them but they are almost never insulting and contemptuous the way the women are even to the men they supposedly love. Think about it - virtually every time one of the main character women think about the man they love, it's almost always along the lines of how dare he this and how dare he that and how dare he make me love him and it's all his fault, stupid man!  With only a very few exceptions, every female character is arrogant, hypocritical, rather stupid in their narrow provincial shortsightedness and just .... petty. 

The one change I would make? I'd rewrite every female character so that every single one wasn't an insanely shrewish man hating harpy. I remember the first time I read the passage where Nynaeve was astounded to find the riverboat captain who sincerely didn't like women. My immediate thought was "Why does any man on this world like any woman?" given the way that every woman regards every single man - even the ones she supposedly loves - as a contemptible incompetent retard incapable of the smallest thing without direct and minute female supervision.

 

 

While i understand where Mr Ares is coming from about cads i have to say i disagree, its one thing to stand up for ones self and not to back down in a contest of wills with the DR, quite another to constantly goad and try to humiliate him in front of his men, i think just seeing how the others treated her convinced him she wasnt just another AS, she tried to get him to respect her or at least fear her, all she ended up doing was getting him to hate her and see her as just another arrogant manipulater.

 

It has been well broken down elsewhere but Cads took the only option available to her after a very careful study of Rand and the situation. Old post below:

 

In fact we know she did a ton of research on Rand and tested his character and sanity in their first meeting. She fell on a course of action based on the results that the WOs advocated as well.

 

 

"Most men will take what is offered, if it seems attractive and pleasant," Sorilea said. "Once, we thought of Rand al'Thor so. Unfortunately, it is too late to change the path we walk. Now, he suspects whatever is offered freely. Now, if I wanted him to accept something, I would pretend I did not want him to have it. If I wanted to stay close to him, I would pretend indifference to whether I ever saw him again." Once more, those eyes focused on Cadsuane, green augers. Not trying to see what lay inside her head. The woman knew.

 

- The Path of Daggers, New Alliances

 

Here decision on how to proceed was absolutely correct:

 

"If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect. There's good metal in that boy, I think, but he's going to be difficult." Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. "He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance .... Phaw! Al'Thor's not so hard yet as Logain Ablar or Mazrim

Taim, but a hundred times as difficult, I fear."

 

- A Crown of Swords, Diamonds and Stars

 

 

After how he was treated by other AS there was no other course of action she could have taken. He would have been distrustful of anything else.

 

But I must wait for him to come to me. You see the way he runs roughshod over Alanna and the others. It will be hard enough teaching him, if he does ask. He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won't learn at all."

 

- Winter’s Heart, Bonds

 

 

It should be noted that Moiraine told Eggy and AVi that this was exactly what Rand needed.

 

Rand will need both of you in the days to come. You handle his temper well – though I may say your methods are unusual. He will need people who cannot be driven away or quelled by his rages, who will tell him what he must hear instead of what they think he wants to.”

 

- The Fires of Heaven, News Comes To Cairhien

 

Towards the end the deterioration of things was mainly do to Rand's psychological darkness, he saw not only Cads but everyone in the worst possible light. The reality is she saved his life multiple times, she backed him to the hilt/executed a perfect defense at the cleansing, and she out of all the AS swore to do what was best for him, not herself or the WT. Compared to all of that calling him "boy"(often when he is acting like a child) is hardly an issue. It may have taken a lucky stroke at the end but Rand himself flat out states she took the correct course:

 

"I was broken," Rand said, hands behind his back. "And then, remarkably, I was reforged. I think he almost had me, Egwene. It was Cadsuane who set me to fixing it...

 

- Towers of Midnight

 

She doesn't care for titles, she hates politicking, and she never suffers fools. It's part of the reason the WO's respect her so much. She keeps her word and always works towards Rand's benefit(a driving piece of her character is trying to better those around her and we see her show compassion on a regular basis). Despite that all many fans seem to care about is "but ZOMFG she was a big meanie to the Dragon Reborn!"

 

"Exaggerated a wee bit" doesn't even begin to properly characterize the op's opinion. There can be no realistic discussion on the topic when one side starts from such a place.

 

 

Agreed.

 

'Come on, dude, one of the major criticisms of WOT is that all the female characters are variations on one uber character.' 

 

Nope... nope. Do you seriously think that Nyneave has the same personality as Egwene? Or Tylin? Or Elaida? Or Greandal? Or Mistress al'Vere? Do you think ANY of those characters have the same personality? 

 

What about Setalle Anan? 'you are an unconventionally wise man, Matrim Cauthon.' She says that to Mat. WHABAM!  See, women are not always telling the men that they are stupid. You are off base! 

 

They do all have the same personality in regard to men - contemptuous and dismissive. For every example of grudging compliment or reluctantly offered shortlived gratitude or half hearted begrudged apology, there are a thousand "manstupid woolheaded fool" examples - either thought or said outright. It's not even that every woman has the attitude - it's the utter relentlessness of it that gripes me. 

 

 

Honestly Egwene is the one of the only irredeemably bitchy characters this side of Elaida and Tuon... which is why her being considered the go-to "strong woman" of the series always irked me. She's the closest thing the books have to a Mary Sue if you ask me, and the [removed] she pulls on Nynaeve (and the fact that Nynaeve lets her do it) is a perfect example of other characters dumbing down and bending themselves to fit her whenever she's in the scene.  The only times I found myself rooting for her were those rare moments when she is faced with an opponent even more frustrating than she is. Otherwise, she simply tries to sell out her friends to every group of authoritative women she meets (first helping the Wise Ones manipulate Rand, then the Aes Sedai, then manipulating Mat for the Aes Sedai, then trying to manipulate Rand into giving up his prophesied duty to her because of course the farm girl who's been outside Emond's Field for two years knows better than the Dragon Re-goddamn-born).  I was glad she died, I just wish she'd died sooner and less gloriously, as befits her personality.

 

There are plenty of examples of strong, likable female characters in the books: Birgitte, Moiraine, Siuan [removed], Faile, Berelain, Verin,  Nynaeve, Elayne (I guess), Aviendha, the Wise Ones, Setalle Anan... Christ, I could probably sit here for an hour writing out names. But Egwene should be left in a small box somewhere, because she's terrible.

 

Right, right right. Very good. I'm probably a LITTLE more tolerant of Egwene than you are but thats fine. You're right, we could go on all day naming female characters that are just fine. [removed]

 

 

They are all shown as arrogant, shrewish, self centered, hypocritical, petty, vain, cruel bullies heavily into BDSM.

No, they're not. Especially not the BDSM part - just because a few people get spanked, doesn't mean everyone is into BDSM. If a child is spanked, would you say the child is into BDSM? While they may all display a number of faults, it's simply not fair and not accurate to tar them all with the same brush like this.

 

Yes, they are. Into S&M, that is. Every time a novice/accepted/even a sister is punished for anything it always seems to involve corporal punishment of some type, no matter what else is assigned,such as onerous chores or isolation or even exile. Admittedly they are most of them much more heavily into discipline and sadism than bondage or masochism.

Their base emotion towards everyone else seems to be contempt. Everyone they meet is assumed to be an idiot who needs to be bullied and bludgeoned onto the right path - unless, course of, they instantly fall into the properly obsequious attitude in which case they will be treated with the contempt due any lickspittle.

Well, it works for me.

 

The Aes Sedai are the worst, of course. The oaths they swear against lying and using the Power as a weapon except in self defense are a hypocritical farce. They lie - through omission, misinformation and misdirection - so often that there are folk sayings against believing a word they say. They constantly use the Power to physically punish people for doing something they don't like or saying something they don't like or for not cringing sufficiently when they are given a "look". Their training in the tower seems to mainly consist of instilling overweening arrogance, an unfailing sense of infallibility, a sense of entitlement and a taste for BDSM games in the initiates.

Again, maybe you should look up what BDSM actually means. If anything, a girl's time in the Tower is more likely to be one of heavy to industrial strength lesbianism than anything BDSM related. Also, they do not swear an Oath against lying, they swear one against not speaking the truth. And they do speak the truth - phrased misleadingly, perhaps, but they abide by the letter of their Oaths. And physically punishing someone is not the same as using a weapon. Nor do we see them complain about others using these tricks against them - they are hardly hypocritical. It's true that the Oaths don't really serve any useful purpose, and have helped the AS to lose their way, but just because they are a bad thing doesn't mean that any term for a bad thing can be used to describe them. 

 

To speak no word that is not true is a prohibition against lying and intentionally manipulating words to make someone believe a lie is lying by any rational sense of morality. Therefore they are both untruthful and liars.

The extortion racket they run to support themselves seems to have convinced them that Tower law supersedes all other and gives them authority over all other channellers and objects of magic no matter what land they reside in as well as the right to tell anyone, noble or peasant, what to do.

Except that while Tower law dictates all objects of the Power rightfully belong to the Tower, this is not an edict they attempt to enforce. It's a paper claim. When do we ever see them trying to enforce Tower law on those who are not either sworn to the Tower or on the Tower's land?

 

Except that they do whenever they can get away with it. Look at how Moraine basically robbed the Aiel at Rhuidean - using they ignorance and the awe they still felt at that time to appropriate the objects. And not just angreal and such. The Aes Sedai feel they have the right to arrest and punish anyone who pretends to be Aes Sedai and they attest to this several times themselves. They also feel that channeling is exclusively their property and that even wilders who have successfully weathered learning on their own had better not channel too openly. Just exactly where does this authority come from - other than there own arrogant presumption.

I've had a hard time deciding which female character I loathe the most - Egwene or Cadsuane. Egwene wants exactly the same things that Elaida wants - unquestioning, instantaneous, blind obedience, White tower rule of the world (under her absolute rule of the Tower, of course), and Rand on a leash as her trained attack dog without any stupid plans of his own.

This is simply not true. Egwene is ambitious, but she has goals far bigger than herself and her own power. She does end up sacrificing herself. Due to the nature of her position, she has to win the support and the obedience of others in the Tower, to convince them to follow her in a way she wouldn't have had to under normal circumstances. She had to reunite the Tower. She shows no interest in "absolute power" as an end in itself, she intends ot use the power she obtains as a means to an end.

 

She's a megalomaniac. I never said she's evil or cowardly or lazy. Her base, that she always comes back to no matter what temporary insecurity, hiccup or setback pops ups, is her unshakeable belief that she always knows best, she is always basically right whatever her desire and everyone should be doing exactly as she thinks they should do. Of course she would deny she wants absolute power, which is why she sublimates it into a desire to make the Tower itself as the strongest power in the world. But since she is the rightful ruler of the Tower - well you do the math. She's eighteen. How is that not pyschopathy?

Cadsuane I hate because she is so stupid. Her stated purpose is to make Rand laugh and cry again - in other words to reclaim humanity. Her brilliant plan? Offer him a little sympathy, a bit of respect, a modicum of trust and maybe a smidgen of gratitude for the sacrifice of his life? Why, no! I'll berate and belittle, embarrass and humiliate, insult, manipulate and deride him and occasionally physically assault him. In public whenever possible. And I'll always derisively call him "boy" rather than use his name or title. Yeah, that'll restore his humanity and help him win Tarmon Gaidon.

Well, up until the Semi incident it was working. She's hardly stupid. It's worth noting that she uses many different ways of dealing with people, and tailors her methods to the person in question. Would Rand have followed her advice if she had offered him trust and compassion? No. He saw AS and thought them out to manipulate him. So Cadsuane swore she wouldn't put the Tower's interests ahead of his own, and was bluntly critical of his mistakes. She did not display the weaknesses that might have led him to steamroller her, but nor did she give the impression of a false friend trying to manipulate him for her own ends. Instead, she was a trusted advisor, someone to be listened to and respected, someone who had his back and who saved his life more than once, but not someone who ever tried to control him, overtly or otherwise. She's not without her flaws, but she still stands as a great example of what an AS should be.

 

Except that it wasn't working. The only reason Rand kept her around was because of Min's viewing. He saw her as being out to manipulate him because she was, making her oath a big fat lie. Now it wouldn't have been a lie if she'd said she'd do what she considers his best interests - because she considers controlling him as his best interests. She is absolutely no different than any other AS in this. The only time I can even recall her giving Rand any helpful or valid advice was in Tear and even then she delivered it in the most insulting, humiliating way possible. Do you believe that the best way to treat abuse victims is to slap them until they snap out of it? Her so-called success in turning Rand back to the light had absolutely nothing to do with her and her plan except thru blind, dumb luck. She didn't bring Tam in to provide any kind of catharsis but to try to manipulate and control Rand. When he snapped, he might well have destroyed the world because of her blundering. Only his upbringing from Tam, his sense of duty and the love he felt for those he cared about brought him back from the brink. Cadsuane had zero to do with that.

 

Your hyperbole does your argument no favours.

 

Dude, it's the internet. The home of Hyperbole :)

Come on, dude, one of the major criticisms of WOT is that all the female characters are variations on one uber character. If I'm so off base, take up my challenge and point me to a single POV passage where a women is thinking about men in general or a man in particular and doesn't ruminate at some point in the passage about how stupid they/he are/is? Personally, I've never been able to decide if RJ was a rabid feminist who thought all men were scum or a rabid sexist who took the empowerment of women to a ridiculous negative extreme. Point me to one female who doesn't think her husband, father, boyfriend, lover, etc., let alone a stranger, isn't a moron who requires her close supervision even though she may consider him a loveable idiot and may take offence if another woman calls him stupid. Even Min, the most sympathetic female in the whole series who absolutely does love Rand, spends half her time calling him stupid, woolhead, etc. Of course, all the women aren't terrible all the time. As I pointed out, even Egwene is awesome when she's being tortured by the Seanchan and Elaida. But I absolutely stand by my opinion that she's a powermad egomaniac. I never understood why rand ever even liked her, let alone thought he loved her. Think back to Eye. She's introduced as a girl 2 years younger than he who makes him feel uncomfortable and vaguely guilty and has apparently dedicated her life to keeping him in his proper place on the straight and narrow as she sees it and keeping him from getting a swelled head - though what a poor shepherd boy is going to be arrogant about is a mystery to me. Throughout the entire series, she spends the majority of her time wondering what stupid thing he's done, is doing or is planning to do without her guidance and castigating him for it. As for Nynaeve, when I first read the series I absolutely hated her with a passion. Come to think of it, the first few books the first time around  I absolutely loved Egwene. But now I quite like Nyneave because as you say, as infuriating as she can be, she does genuinely care for people. Egwene, on the other hand, I think would sacrifice anyone for the good of the White Tower which she conflates with the good of the world and so justifies anything that increases the power of the Tower. 

Getting late - I'll come back later.

I'm probably on my dozenth relisten (Audible) of the series and realize that as much as I love the series, I'm coming to hate most of the characters - particularly the women. I expect to dislike and hate the baddies but it applies equally to the light characters. There are like five characters I don't utterly despise - Rand, Mat, Moraine, Min and Verin.

Let's start with the women. How can anyone like any of them or think them "strong" as if that word excuses their appalling personal characteristics. They are all shown as arrogant, shrewish, self centered, hypocritical, petty, vain, cruel bullies heavily into BDSM. Their base emotion towards everyone else seems to be contempt. Everyone they meet is assumed to be an idiot who needs to be bullied and bludgeoned onto the right path - unless, course of, they instantly fall into the properly obsequious attitude in which case they will be treated with the contempt due any lickspittle. This applies not only to men - for whom every women appears to hold both utter and bottomless contempt - but to every other women as well including their so called friends. As to their feelings about men - can anyone point me to a single POV passage in 14 books where a woman thinking about a man doesn't reflect on how stupid men are in general and what a moron the particular man she's contemplating is? Even when she's supposedly thinking about how much she loves said man! 

The Aes Sedai are the worst, of course. The oaths they swear against lying and using the Power as a weapon except in self defense are a hypocritical farce. They lie - through omission, misinformation and misdirection - so often that there are folk sayings against believing a word they say. They constantly use the Power to physically punish people for doing something they don't like or saying something they don't like or for not cringing sufficiently when they are given a "look". Their training in the tower seems to mainly consist of instilling overweening arrogance, an unfailing sense of infallibility, a sense of entitlement and a taste for BDSM games in the initiates. The extortion racket they run to support themselves seems to have convinced them that Tower law supersedes all other and gives them authority over all other channellers and objects of magic no matter what land they reside in as well as the right to tell anyone, noble or peasant, what to do. They all regard anyone not a "servant of all" as dirt and most treat everyone they meet exactly as that. The Wise Ones and Windfinders share most or all of these traits, too.

I've had a hard time deciding which female character I loathe the most - Egwene or Cadsuane. Egwene wants exactly the same things that Elaida wants - unquestioning, instantaneous, blind obedience, White tower rule of the world (under her absolute rule of the Tower, of course), and Rand on a leash as her trained attack dog without any stupid plans of his own. The chief difference between them is that while both are megalomaniacs, Elaida wants both the absolute power and worship while Egwene simply wants absolute power while pretending to be first among equals. Cadsuane I hate because she is so stupid. Her stated purpose is to make Rand laugh and cry again - in other words to reclaim humanity. Her brilliant plan? Offer him a little sympathy, a bit of respect, a modicum of trust and maybe a smidgen of gratitude for the sacrifice of his life? Why, no! I'll berate and belittle, embarrass and humiliate, insult, manipulate and deride him and occasionally physically assault him. In public whenever possible. And I'll always derisively call him "boy" rather than use his name or title. Yeah, that'll restore his humanity and help him win Tarmon Gaidon. At the end of the day, I hate Egwene the most. Probably because she does have one massively admirable quality when under duress - her sheer, almost Hitlerian will. Which is also her most abominable trait when not under duress.

As to the men, what can you say, at least in regard to their interactions with women? Pathetic, stupid and completely petrified of all women unless they are a darkfriend, in which case they are usually wannabe serial murderers/rapists. There's not a single man who gets more than the sheerest shred of respect from any women. Think of all the male characters, including the main ones, who have backed up in fear just because some women gave him a hard look. Think about how the women always think of the men as mentioned above. Now think of how the men think of women - almost always "boy, those women sure are unknowable and mysterious but I've got to protect them even though they tell me every single time that I'm an idiot and they don't need my damned protection no matter how many times I do save them". My biggest question is why every single good guy male in this universe feels compelled to be willing to lay down his life for every woman and bigger yet, why isn't every dude gay?

As to the male character who I hate most? Easy - Perrin. He was easily my favorite character in Eye but was totally ruined by his obsession with Fail. He went from the everyman determined to do what he could to save the world even though he had no special powers to whiny wolfboy (even though any other guy would be "Wow, cool! I can talk to wolves!") to completely whipped scumbag willing to sell the world to the DO for Fail. What a douche he became although he was working to redeem himself in Memory.

Well, enough ranting. And don't worry - got my flame suit on:)