
Randlander123
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Posts posted by Randlander123
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They are all shown as arrogant, shrewish, self centered, hypocritical, petty, vain, cruel bullies heavily into BDSM.
No, they're not. Especially not the BDSM part - just because a few people get spanked, doesn't mean everyone is into BDSM. If a child is spanked, would you say the child is into BDSM? While they may all display a number of faults, it's simply not fair and not accurate to tar them all with the same brush like this.
Yes, they are. Into S&M, that is. Every time a novice/accepted/even a sister is punished for anything it always seems to involve corporal punishment of some type, no matter what else is assigned,such as onerous chores or isolation or even exile. Admittedly they are most of them much more heavily into discipline and sadism than bondage or masochism.
Their base emotion towards everyone else seems to be contempt. Everyone they meet is assumed to be an idiot who needs to be bullied and bludgeoned onto the right path - unless, course of, they instantly fall into the properly obsequious attitude in which case they will be treated with the contempt due any lickspittle.
Well, it works for me.
The Aes Sedai are the worst, of course. The oaths they swear against lying and using the Power as a weapon except in self defense are a hypocritical farce. They lie - through omission, misinformation and misdirection - so often that there are folk sayings against believing a word they say. They constantly use the Power to physically punish people for doing something they don't like or saying something they don't like or for not cringing sufficiently when they are given a "look". Their training in the tower seems to mainly consist of instilling overweening arrogance, an unfailing sense of infallibility, a sense of entitlement and a taste for BDSM games in the initiates.
Again, maybe you should look up what BDSM actually means. If anything, a girl's time in the Tower is more likely to be one of heavy to industrial strength lesbianism than anything BDSM related. Also, they do not swear an Oath against lying, they swear one against not speaking the truth. And they do speak the truth - phrased misleadingly, perhaps, but they abide by the letter of their Oaths. And physically punishing someone is not the same as using a weapon. Nor do we see them complain about others using these tricks against them - they are hardly hypocritical. It's true that the Oaths don't really serve any useful purpose, and have helped the AS to lose their way, but just because they are a bad thing doesn't mean that any term for a bad thing can be used to describe them.
To speak no word that is not true is a prohibition against lying and intentionally manipulating words to make someone believe a lie is lying by any rational sense of morality. Therefore they are both untruthful and liars.
The extortion racket they run to support themselves seems to have convinced them that Tower law supersedes all other and gives them authority over all other channellers and objects of magic no matter what land they reside in as well as the right to tell anyone, noble or peasant, what to do.
Except that while Tower law dictates all objects of the Power rightfully belong to the Tower, this is not an edict they attempt to enforce. It's a paper claim. When do we ever see them trying to enforce Tower law on those who are not either sworn to the Tower or on the Tower's land?
Except that they do whenever they can get away with it. Look at how Moraine basically robbed the Aiel at Rhuidean - using they ignorance and the awe they still felt at that time to appropriate the objects. And not just angreal and such. The Aes Sedai feel they have the right to arrest and punish anyone who pretends to be Aes Sedai and they attest to this several times themselves. They also feel that channeling is exclusively their property and that even wilders who have successfully weathered learning on their own had better not channel too openly. Just exactly where does this authority come from - other than there own arrogant presumption.
I've had a hard time deciding which female character I loathe the most - Egwene or Cadsuane. Egwene wants exactly the same things that Elaida wants - unquestioning, instantaneous, blind obedience, White tower rule of the world (under her absolute rule of the Tower, of course), and Rand on a leash as her trained attack dog without any stupid plans of his own.
This is simply not true. Egwene is ambitious, but she has goals far bigger than herself and her own power. She does end up sacrificing herself. Due to the nature of her position, she has to win the support and the obedience of others in the Tower, to convince them to follow her in a way she wouldn't have had to under normal circumstances. She had to reunite the Tower. She shows no interest in "absolute power" as an end in itself, she intends ot use the power she obtains as a means to an end.
She's a megalomaniac. I never said she's evil or cowardly or lazy. Her base, that she always comes back to no matter what temporary insecurity, hiccup or setback pops ups, is her unshakeable belief that she always knows best, she is always basically right whatever her desire and everyone should be doing exactly as she thinks they should do. Of course she would deny she wants absolute power, which is why she sublimates it into a desire to make the Tower itself as the strongest power in the world. But since she is the rightful ruler of the Tower - well you do the math. She's eighteen. How is that not pyschopathy?
Cadsuane I hate because she is so stupid. Her stated purpose is to make Rand laugh and cry again - in other words to reclaim humanity. Her brilliant plan? Offer him a little sympathy, a bit of respect, a modicum of trust and maybe a smidgen of gratitude for the sacrifice of his life? Why, no! I'll berate and belittle, embarrass and humiliate, insult, manipulate and deride him and occasionally physically assault him. In public whenever possible. And I'll always derisively call him "boy" rather than use his name or title. Yeah, that'll restore his humanity and help him win Tarmon Gaidon.
Well, up until the Semi incident it was working. She's hardly stupid. It's worth noting that she uses many different ways of dealing with people, and tailors her methods to the person in question. Would Rand have followed her advice if she had offered him trust and compassion? No. He saw AS and thought them out to manipulate him. So Cadsuane swore she wouldn't put the Tower's interests ahead of his own, and was bluntly critical of his mistakes. She did not display the weaknesses that might have led him to steamroller her, but nor did she give the impression of a false friend trying to manipulate him for her own ends. Instead, she was a trusted advisor, someone to be listened to and respected, someone who had his back and who saved his life more than once, but not someone who ever tried to control him, overtly or otherwise. She's not without her flaws, but she still stands as a great example of what an AS should be.
Except that it wasn't working. The only reason Rand kept her around was because of Min's viewing. He saw her as being out to manipulate him because she was, making her oath a big fat lie. Now it wouldn't have been a lie if she'd said she'd do what she considers his best interests - because she considers controlling him as his best interests. She is absolutely no different than any other AS in this. The only time I can even recall her giving Rand any helpful or valid advice was in Tear and even then she delivered it in the most insulting, humiliating way possible. Do you believe that the best way to treat abuse victims is to slap them until they snap out of it? Her so-called success in turning Rand back to the light had absolutely nothing to do with her and her plan except thru blind, dumb luck. She didn't bring Tam in to provide any kind of catharsis but to try to manipulate and control Rand. When he snapped, he might well have destroyed the world because of her blundering. Only his upbringing from Tam, his sense of duty and the love he felt for those he cared about brought him back from the brink. Cadsuane had zero to do with that.
Your hyperbole does your argument no favours.
Dude, it's the internet. The home of Hyperbole :)
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Come on, dude, one of the major criticisms of WOT is that all the female characters are variations on one uber character. If I'm so off base, take up my challenge and point me to a single POV passage where a women is thinking about men in general or a man in particular and doesn't ruminate at some point in the passage about how stupid they/he are/is? Personally, I've never been able to decide if RJ was a rabid feminist who thought all men were scum or a rabid sexist who took the empowerment of women to a ridiculous negative extreme. Point me to one female who doesn't think her husband, father, boyfriend, lover, etc., let alone a stranger, isn't a moron who requires her close supervision even though she may consider him a loveable idiot and may take offence if another woman calls him stupid. Even Min, the most sympathetic female in the whole series who absolutely does love Rand, spends half her time calling him stupid, woolhead, etc. Of course, all the women aren't terrible all the time. As I pointed out, even Egwene is awesome when she's being tortured by the Seanchan and Elaida. But I absolutely stand by my opinion that she's a powermad egomaniac. I never understood why rand ever even liked her, let alone thought he loved her. Think back to Eye. She's introduced as a girl 2 years younger than he who makes him feel uncomfortable and vaguely guilty and has apparently dedicated her life to keeping him in his proper place on the straight and narrow as she sees it and keeping him from getting a swelled head - though what a poor shepherd boy is going to be arrogant about is a mystery to me. Throughout the entire series, she spends the majority of her time wondering what stupid thing he's done, is doing or is planning to do without her guidance and castigating him for it. As for Nynaeve, when I first read the series I absolutely hated her with a passion. Come to think of it, the first few books the first time around I absolutely loved Egwene. But now I quite like Nyneave because as you say, as infuriating as she can be, she does genuinely care for people. Egwene, on the other hand, I think would sacrifice anyone for the good of the White Tower which she conflates with the good of the world and so justifies anything that increases the power of the Tower.
Getting late - I'll come back later.
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I'm probably on my dozenth relisten (Audible) of the series and realize that as much as I love the series, I'm coming to hate most of the characters - particularly the women. I expect to dislike and hate the baddies but it applies equally to the light characters. There are like five characters I don't utterly despise - Rand, Mat, Moraine, Min and Verin.
Let's start with the women. How can anyone like any of them or think them "strong" as if that word excuses their appalling personal characteristics. They are all shown as arrogant, shrewish, self centered, hypocritical, petty, vain, cruel bullies heavily into BDSM. Their base emotion towards everyone else seems to be contempt. Everyone they meet is assumed to be an idiot who needs to be bullied and bludgeoned onto the right path - unless, course of, they instantly fall into the properly obsequious attitude in which case they will be treated with the contempt due any lickspittle. This applies not only to men - for whom every women appears to hold both utter and bottomless contempt - but to every other women as well including their so called friends. As to their feelings about men - can anyone point me to a single POV passage in 14 books where a woman thinking about a man doesn't reflect on how stupid men are in general and what a moron the particular man she's contemplating is? Even when she's supposedly thinking about how much she loves said man!
The Aes Sedai are the worst, of course. The oaths they swear against lying and using the Power as a weapon except in self defense are a hypocritical farce. They lie - through omission, misinformation and misdirection - so often that there are folk sayings against believing a word they say. They constantly use the Power to physically punish people for doing something they don't like or saying something they don't like or for not cringing sufficiently when they are given a "look". Their training in the tower seems to mainly consist of instilling overweening arrogance, an unfailing sense of infallibility, a sense of entitlement and a taste for BDSM games in the initiates. The extortion racket they run to support themselves seems to have convinced them that Tower law supersedes all other and gives them authority over all other channellers and objects of magic no matter what land they reside in as well as the right to tell anyone, noble or peasant, what to do. They all regard anyone not a "servant of all" as dirt and most treat everyone they meet exactly as that. The Wise Ones and Windfinders share most or all of these traits, too.
I've had a hard time deciding which female character I loathe the most - Egwene or Cadsuane. Egwene wants exactly the same things that Elaida wants - unquestioning, instantaneous, blind obedience, White tower rule of the world (under her absolute rule of the Tower, of course), and Rand on a leash as her trained attack dog without any stupid plans of his own. The chief difference between them is that while both are megalomaniacs, Elaida wants both the absolute power and worship while Egwene simply wants absolute power while pretending to be first among equals. Cadsuane I hate because she is so stupid. Her stated purpose is to make Rand laugh and cry again - in other words to reclaim humanity. Her brilliant plan? Offer him a little sympathy, a bit of respect, a modicum of trust and maybe a smidgen of gratitude for the sacrifice of his life? Why, no! I'll berate and belittle, embarrass and humiliate, insult, manipulate and deride him and occasionally physically assault him. In public whenever possible. And I'll always derisively call him "boy" rather than use his name or title. Yeah, that'll restore his humanity and help him win Tarmon Gaidon. At the end of the day, I hate Egwene the most. Probably because she does have one massively admirable quality when under duress - her sheer, almost Hitlerian will. Which is also her most abominable trait when not under duress.
As to the men, what can you say, at least in regard to their interactions with women? Pathetic, stupid and completely petrified of all women unless they are a darkfriend, in which case they are usually wannabe serial murderers/rapists. There's not a single man who gets more than the sheerest shred of respect from any women. Think of all the male characters, including the main ones, who have backed up in fear just because some women gave him a hard look. Think about how the women always think of the men as mentioned above. Now think of how the men think of women - almost always "boy, those women sure are unknowable and mysterious but I've got to protect them even though they tell me every single time that I'm an idiot and they don't need my damned protection no matter how many times I do save them". My biggest question is why every single good guy male in this universe feels compelled to be willing to lay down his life for every woman and bigger yet, why isn't every dude gay?
As to the male character who I hate most? Easy - Perrin. He was easily my favorite character in Eye but was totally ruined by his obsession with Fail. He went from the everyman determined to do what he could to save the world even though he had no special powers to whiny wolfboy (even though any other guy would be "Wow, cool! I can talk to wolves!") to completely whipped scumbag willing to sell the world to the DO for Fail. What a douche he became although he was working to redeem himself in Memory.
Well, enough ranting. And don't worry - got my flame suit on:)
Anybody else love the series but hate almost every character?
in Wheel of Time Books
Posted · Edited by Barid Bel Medar
quote removal etc.