I'd like to return via option 1

I've gone back to my roooooooots! Kansas! 

 

 

 

Seeing as books are pretty subjective, saying that 'I didn't have a problem with the pace' is just fine.

 

And I already gave you an argument that you did not reply to. In short: The pacing in the last three books was nothing compared with the pace of the earlier books. It was MUCH faster. What you said was 'there are places in the story that will naturally slow down. So what? It doesn't change that the last three had a much faster pace. Much more happened in the last three than in the previous five books combined. 

Subjective or not, "I didn't have a problem with it" just shuts down discussion. If people don't offer some basis for their opinions, what the hell do we talk about? Why didn't you have a problem with it? Other people did have a problem - is that not a valid stance?

 

Also, I did offer an argument - pointing out that the pace was slow at the point where you would expect the pace to be slowest (the middle), and that there were still significant pacing issues when you would expect the pace to be fastest (the end) is a response. Saying "more happened" is meaningless - more was able to happen because the previous books spent a lot of time setting everything up, but because the set up was already done, the pacing issues in the last books are less excusable.

 

 

Pacing was a problem compared to what though? RJ's pace over the majority of the previous 4-5 books? Don't make me laugh.

 

The pacing problems of the middle books and the pacing problems of the last books are different problems. They are not dependant on one another, they do not excuse one another, regardless of which is worse. CoT might be worse than AMoL, but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem with AMoL. And it doesn't mean you can shut down discussion of the problems with AMoL just by pointing to CoT. I'm not saying the pacing of the end was a problem compared to the middle. I'm saying the pacing of the end was a problem, regardless of the pacing in the middle.

 

 

 

 

[Removed}

Why did you think that the pacing was a problem? Did you get bored? I did not have a problem with the pace because I was NOT bored. Maybe that says more about me than the book. 

The reason I made the comparison to the middle was that I thought that people were acting like RJ never had any problems with pace and in doing so, were treating Mr. Sanderson unfairly. 

 

You say bloat and filler, but provide no examples.

Yeah I mean all those Gawyn scenes were totally necessary, someone should have brought that up...oh wait.

 

Go back and read the quotes provided or go back and read through the old quality thread. It's been discussed in great detail.

 

'Those scenes with Gawyn'.... Which scenes and how were they unnecessary?

Sorry if I don't feel like reading a different thread right now. :P 

 

It doesn't change that the last three had a much faster pace. Much more happened in the last three than in the previous five books combined. 

 

Why on earth would you compare the last book/climax of the series to a point in the narrative arc where there was a planned slow down and story lines are still expanding? The pace sure as hell better pick up. That doesn't change the fact that there was a ton of bloat and filler at a time in which there should have been none.

 

It did pick up. So what are you complaining about? The 'ton of bloat and filler'? Clearly you are exaggerating. You say bloat and filler, but provide no examples. Please explain yourself.

Seeing as books are pretty subjective, saying that 'I didn't have a problem with the pace' is just fine.

And I already gave you an argument that you did not reply to. In short: The pacing in the last three books was nothing compared with the pace of the earlier books. It was MUCH faster. What you said was 'there are places in the story that will naturally slow down. So what? It doesn't change that the last three had a much faster pace. Much more happened in the last three than in the previous five books combined. 

 

 

 

@mr ares,

the two tams confusion was caused by tam being with rand in tom not in tgs and then reappearing

with perrin in tom(perrin part in the gathering stom is negligible,3 chapters only and tam is

mentioned only in 1 of them).

the perrin scenes in tom are set before the rand scenes in tom,and yet,tom chapter 1(apples first)

is about rand post his dragonmount epiphany and only in chapter 30 perrin witness rand struggles

on top of dragonmount.

...Yes, I'm aware of that. It was, in fact, my point - that the split created certain structural issues, of which these were two examples.

 

Maybe two volumes would have been better, but one would have been: 1. far too long & 2. If you cut it down to be a manageable length it would be rushed.

 

I also don't think think that the slowdown failed as much as with G.R.R Martin. At points in was too much, but I think it still worked reasonably well. But Mr. Martin's bog-down.... After finishing the most recent one my reaction was just 'meh'. It was a step down from the excellence which I had come to expect form him. Which is probably why I reacted like that. When you are used to a certain standard, anything less is a Stark (heh) contrast. 

 

@Mr. Ares: The 'Two Tam's thing never was a problem for me, and until you mentioned it, I didn't know it confused anybody.

Most people seem to have got it, but there have been quite a few threads posted here asking for clarification of what's going on, so quite a few people were confused. So I'd say it was certainly an issue even if you personally weren't confused. If the crossover hadn't happened until the timeline were caught up with one another, there wouldn't have been a problem - but that necessitated the Perrin material be moved into TGS. In fact, a lot of ToM should be, because VoG is the turning point - so the material from other storylines in ToM which is set before the turning point is undermined because that point has already been reached by the reader. We've already seen the crisis past. It rips the guts out of ToM, and leaves a lot of stories having to play catch up rather than meaningfully building towards a climax. It's worth noting that RJ's stated reason for only wanting one more book was structural, and that it's the three book structure that causes so many problems for the last volumes.

 

And I'm not saying that the last three books were perfect. I especially didn't like the underutilization of Perrin in AMoL. 

 

'Do you want the plot advancement to slow to a crawl again, all so an arbitrary number of books you can see as enough is reached?

On the contrary, I though the plot was NO WHERE NEAR a crawl. Compared to the rest of the series, the plot was moving at a very high speed in the last three books. You complaints seem to lie with Mr. Sanderson, but because it was too slow for you. How is that logical when RJ's plot moved WWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY slower?

 

 

There are times when it is natural that the plot will slow down, and times when it is natural it will speed up. RJ slowed down when his storylines were at their most numerous and spread out, and the pace began picking up in KoD as the story approached the climax. Brandon's books might not have been as slowly paced, but they were the climax of the series, not putting all the pieces in place for the climax of the series. A midpoint and an endpoint can be judged on different criteria, and what is acceptable in one isn't necessarily acceptable in the other. You can see the same structures being used in individual books in the series - LoC spends a lot of time building up to Dumai's Wells, for example.

 

Actually, if I wasn't confused, the two Tams wasn't an issue.It wasn't an issue for you, or for me. It was still an issue for quite a few people, so it's entirely justified to highlight it as an issue, and "it wasn't an issue for me" is not a valid rebuttal. It was an issue for people because of an underlying structural problem - even if you know what's going on it doesn't detract from there being an underlying structural problem.

 

Also, your rebuttal to my point about the slowdown is not valid. In KoD to ToM the characters are just as spread out if not more so. The changes really come in ToM, after Rand's epiphany. Then he ignores the Dark One's snares and refocuses himself. The change comes for us when it does for Rand. That's what makes it a great story arc. The slowing is when Rand becomes wrapped up in lesser problems that the Dark One throws in his path to distract him from his purpose. After his epiphany, the plot sppeds up. Also because at that time, other sub-plots were coming to an end (Perrin's mission and rescuing Faile, Mat & Tuon, ect.).

In KoD we get the ending to several lingering plotlines - the Succession ends, Mat marries Tuon and is reunited with the Band, Perrin rescues Faile. While the characters might not have joined up, the plotlines that were stopping them from joining up are done with, in many cases (it's worth noting that I said "RJ slowed down when his storylines were at their most numerous and spread out". Storylines, not characters, and numerous as well as spread out - pointing out that KoD ended several plotlines, which you did, only validates my point). Things are moving towards an endgame. However, that momentum is then squandered. Subplots are given far more time than they really warrant, at a time when the series should be (and was) cutting down on those same subplots (look at the economy with which RTJ dealt with Ituralde's plotline in CoT and KoD - a couple of prologue POVs and we here about how his campaign is going from the Seanchan near the end. Then Brandon gives it greater focus and page time, when it didn't need it). RJ had a slow middle, and began picking up the pace as he approached the end - Brandon might have paced his books faster than, for example, CoT, but you're still comparing the pace of the middle to that of the end, rather than just the pace of RJ against that of Brandon. Even if RJ's pace was objectively slower, it was slower at a time when the pace was naturally going to be slower, so it isn't necessarily slower in relative terms.

 

I did not have a problem with the pace. And might confusion about the 'two Tams' say more about the reader than the writing? The story sped up in the last three because it needed to, and it did. Brandon was going at a relatively faster pace. I actually though AMoL should be LONGER because we didn't see enough of Perrin. 

 

@mr ares,

the two tams confusion was caused by tam being with rand in tom not in tgs and then reappearing

with perrin in tom(perrin part in the gathering stom is negligible,3 chapters only and tam is

mentioned only in 1 of them).

the perrin scenes in tom are set before the rand scenes in tom,and yet,tom chapter 1(apples first)

is about rand post his dragonmount epiphany and only in chapter 30 perrin witness rand struggles

on top of dragonmount.

...Yes, I'm aware of that. It was, in fact, my point - that the split created certain structural issues, of which these were two examples.

 

Maybe two volumes would have been better, but one would have been: 1. far too long & 2. If you cut it down to be a manageable length it would be rushed.

 

I also don't think think that the slowdown failed as much as with G.R.R Martin. At points in was too much, but I think it still worked reasonably well. But Mr. Martin's bog-down.... After finishing the most recent one my reaction was just 'meh'. It was a step down from the excellence which I had come to expect form him. Which is probably why I reacted like that. When you are used to a certain standard, anything less is a Stark (heh) contrast. 

 

@Mr. Ares: The 'Two Tam's thing never was a problem for me, and until you mentioned it, I didn't know it confused anybody.

Most people seem to have got it, but there have been quite a few threads posted here asking for clarification of what's going on, so quite a few people were confused. So I'd say it was certainly an issue even if you personally weren't confused. If the crossover hadn't happened until the timeline were caught up with one another, there wouldn't have been a problem - but that necessitated the Perrin material be moved into TGS. In fact, a lot of ToM should be, because VoG is the turning point - so the material from other storylines in ToM which is set before the turning point is undermined because that point has already been reached by the reader. We've already seen the crisis past. It rips the guts out of ToM, and leaves a lot of stories having to play catch up rather than meaningfully building towards a climax. It's worth noting that RJ's stated reason for only wanting one more book was structural, and that it's the three book structure that causes so many problems for the last volumes.

 

And I'm not saying that the last three books were perfect. I especially didn't like the underutilization of Perrin in AMoL. 

 

'Do you want the plot advancement to slow to a crawl again, all so an arbitrary number of books you can see as enough is reached?

On the contrary, I though the plot was NO WHERE NEAR a crawl. Compared to the rest of the series, the plot was moving at a very high speed in the last three books. You complaints seem to lie with Mr. Sanderson, but because it was too slow for you. How is that logical when RJ's plot moved WWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY slower?

There are times when it is natural that the plot will slow down, and times when it is natural it will speed up. RJ slowed down when his storylines were at their most numerous and spread out, and the pace began picking up in KoD as the story approached the climax. Brandon's books might not have been as slowly paced, but they were the climax of the series, not putting all the pieces in place for the climax of the series. A midpoint and an endpoint can be judged on different criteria, and what is acceptable in one isn't necessarily acceptable in the other. You can see the same structures being used in individual books in the series - LoC spends a lot of time building up to Dumai's Wells, for example.

 

Actually, if I wasn't confused, the two Tams wasn't an issue.

I agree that the Perrin stuff should've been moved to TGS, but most of the stuff in ToM I enjoyed.

Also, your rebuttal to my point about the slowdown is not valid. In KoD to ToM the characters are just as spread out if not more so. The changes really come in ToM, after Rand's epiphany. Then he ignores the Dark One's snares and refocuses himself. The change comes for us when it does for Rand. That's what makes it a great story arc. The slowing is when Rand becomes wrapped up in lesser problems that the Dark One throws in his path to distract him from his purpose. After his epiphany, the plot sppeds up. Also because at that time, other sub-plots were coming to an end (Perrin's mission and rescuing Faile, Mat & Tuon, ect.).

False equivalence.

 

Start a seperate thread if you wish. Happy to discuss the mid part of the series there. As for this lets stay on topic with pros/cons of a Mat spin off(for which the quality of Brandon's work is very much relevant.) As you well know I've discussed both topics in great detail and frequently source Dom, 13th depository, Theoryland etc. Anything that bolsters the case really. Interested to see your starting take on that section of RJ's work though. Cheers.

I don't want a Matt spinoff, not because Brandon is bad or anything, but because RJ didn't leave any notes. If he had I would still be apprehensive, since RJ only grudgingly let someone finish the series. This would be outside of that and, therefore, outside of the RJ stamp of approval. His world, his rules. 

 

I don't think that the split of AMOL was 'artificial'.

Except the decision came from Tor, not from the author and not based on what would have been best for the story heck even Brandon has called the timeline and structural issues a "casualty" of the split. He wanted to release one book split into two volumes.

 

It's been discussed a number of times before but just a few of the issues that came from this were detailed here.

 

The way Brandon split the material totally undermined what RJ had in mind, with the four main stories becoming dark and bugged down together, piling up to great effect on the reader, the Shadow advancing and the Light totally stuck, in the ropes. Perrin's story and Mat's story, told after the reader knew the "knot" was split open by Rand's epiphany lost much interest and purpose. The whole thing read as "they're making time before Merrilor". That Moiraine might be needed in relation to Rand's darkness stopped working as the red herring it was intended to be (to hide the fact Mat's not coming to Merrilor either, possibly). Aviendha's vision stopped making much sense... Having the epiphany happen in TGS was bad enough (ideally the book wouldn't have been split, but the next best thing to stay closer to the intended dramatic effect was to end it on the Seanchan attack and Rand vanishing from Tear...) , but Brandon made it worse by opening TOM with the announcement of Merrilor and in a month. Again that was done to match the timelines Brandon had desynchronized, and to leave room for pretty useless (and even detrimental) Egwene episodes.

 

RJ's midbook, prior to Merrilor was to pack one hell of a punch. The built up frustration lead to an explosion...The Shadow invaded the Borderlands, Rand vanished after nearly killing his father...Egwene, just released, paid for Rand's failure at Falme and got attacked by the Seanchan, Perrin was about to face a stupid trial and wouldn't be there for Rand (another red herring, but foreshadowed), Mat destroyed the gholam and left for Ghenji, the expedition made bleaker by Birgitte's last minute revelation she found no way out and died in there. Egwene reunited the Tower, destroyed the BA but Mesaana remained and would strike soon.Then the avalanche... Mat in Ghenji, Elayne rising to the Sun Throne, Rand's epiphany, Egwene defeating Mesaana, Perrin witnessing Rand and forging his Hammer, fought to save Galad and his Asha'man able to channel again left for Andor.

 

A few chapters earlier, we were heading for a wall, the Light finished as the LB started, and suddenly we landed in a wholly different book. Time had run out, Rand was fully aware of the Light's weakeness and determined to put an end to dithering. He left himself but a few days to fix what urgently needed fixing... starting by a visit to Egwene, then the Bordermen, a brief visit to AD...

 

But painted in his corner, Brandon needed Rand to give Egwene a whole month to do what she had the resources to do in a week. A mere week before he broke the seals. The month is another thing that ended up diluting the little that was left of the feeling of urgency and the drama. Rand feels pulled to the break the seals and move for SG and yet he goes and gives Egwene a month before Merrilor. That's a month of useless side events with Bloodknives and scenes that suddenly turned a side player RJ used sparingly into a main player (Gawyn, of course), a month of Tuon doing nothing, a month of Rand doing not much.

 

 

Maybe but it was also appalling how many PoV's and pages it took to get from Book 7 to Book 11 as well.

Maybe it happened for different reasons but BS was far from the first author of this this series to run into bloating issues.

Indeed but I'm not sure why there is a need to bring up this false equivalence, which is why I specified in "climax" of the story. Personally I think RJ's slow down gamble failed and we have seen any number of talented authors(GRRM) get tripped up by that portion of a long series. Regardless the two are separate issues which is why it always comes across as somewhat baffling that you feel the need to fly in with the 'but RJ' angle every time it's brought up. Start a separate thread if you wish to discuss it.

 

Maybe two volumes would have been better, but one would have been: 1. far too long & 2. If you cut it down to be a manageable length it would be rushed.

I also don't think think that the slowdown failed as much as with G.R.R Martin. At points in was too much, but I think it still worked reasonably well. But Mr. Martin's bog-down.... After finishing the most recent one my reaction was just 'meh'. It was a step down from the excellence which I had come to expect form him. Which is probably why I reacted like that. When you are used to a certain standard, anything less is a Stark (heh) contrast. 

@Mr. Ares: The 'Two Tam's thing never was a problem for me, and until you mentioned it, I didn't know it confused anybody. 

And I'm not saying that the last three books were perfect. I especially didn't like the underutilization of Perrin in AMoL. 

'Do you want the plot advancement to slow to a crawl again, all so an arbitrary number of books you can see as enough is reached?Do you want the plot advancement to slow to a crawl again, all so an arbitrary number of books you can see as enough is reached?' 

On the contrary, I though the plot was NO WHERE NEAR a crawl. Compared to the rest of the series, the plot was moving at a very high speed in the last three books. You complaints seem to lie with Mr. Sanderson, but because it was too slow for you. How is that logical when RJ's plot moved WWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY slower?

 

 

 

nor do I remember any bloat that contrasted at all with the earlier books that were written by RJ. 

 

The key to this is where we are in the story arc. Granted the artifical split of AMoL without near enough material to fill it out accentuated the issue, but at the climax of the story things like Dom details below should not be happening:

 

It's appalling how many POVs and pages Brandon has needed to write that story. Typically, we might have gotten one Gawyn shortish POV in Dorlan (typically prologue stuff) where he learned Egwene's captive, and he is thorn, and then nothing until suddenly he interrupted a Siuan/Bryne scene with a sudden arrival, his growing frustration mentioned only via observations of Siuan from then on (we didn't need a Lelaine scene making completely irrelevant and stupid inquiries about orchards in Andor (!) we just needed a reference by Siuan that Lelaine was manipulating Gawyn, until as a last resort Siuan went to him for the rescue. For the rest, we needed one confrontation with Egwene, and one conversation with Elayne or Bryne or Siuan, not three scenes of the same whining and self-pity, with each of them in turn...

 

 

I don't think that the split of AMOL was 'artificial'. I really don't think that the climax of Rand on Dragonmount in TGS could have or should have been in the same book as the last battle. That is the turning point, the end of the slowing. The turning point HAS to happen. And I don't think that after the turning point, there should only have been one book. I think that would have made it seem too easy for our heroes. 

 

I'm not sure how more books makes things appear harder for our heroes. Surely it's the content of the books that does that? Also, is there any particular reason why you don't think that VoG and the Last Battle should be in the same book? The split as it was created certain structural issues. Perrin's scene on Dragonmount, for example, is made redundant by us knowing the outcome. It doesn't change our understanding of what happened, it just lets us know someone was watching. The Two Tams confused a lot of people. That's just two examples off the top of my head. While TGS was well structured as a book, ToM and AMoL weren't.

 

So they are being thwarted and played by the Shadow at every turn for 11 books and they somehow turn it around and finish it in one? Ridiculous. That would a ridiculously rushed ending. Also: Two Tams? 

Reason is that 1: the ending would have been too rushed and because it was in the same book as the last battle would have detracted from it. It was the climax of book 12 and if it was in AMoL then it wouldn't have gotten its due. 

 

nor do I remember any bloat that contrasted at all with the earlier books that were written by RJ. 

 

The key to this is where we are in the story arc. Granted the artifical split of AMoL without near enough material to fill it out accentuated the issue, but at the climax of the story things like Dom details below should not be happening:

 

It's appalling how many POVs and pages Brandon has needed to write that story. Typically, we might have gotten one Gawyn shortish POV in Dorlan (typically prologue stuff) where he learned Egwene's captive, and he is thorn, and then nothing until suddenly he interrupted a Siuan/Bryne scene with a sudden arrival, his growing frustration mentioned only via observations of Siuan from then on (we didn't need a Lelaine scene making completely irrelevant and stupid inquiries about orchards in Andor (!) we just needed a reference by Siuan that Lelaine was manipulating Gawyn, until as a last resort Siuan went to him for the rescue. For the rest, we needed one confrontation with Egwene, and one conversation with Elayne or Bryne or Siuan, not three scenes of the same whining and self-pity, with each of them in turn...

 

I don't think that the split of AMOL was 'artificial'. I really don't think that the climax of Rand on Dragonmount in TGS could have or should have been in the same book as the last battle. That is the turning point, the end of the slowing. The turning point HAS to happen. And I don't think that after the turning point, there should only have been one book. I think that would have made it seem too easy for our heroes. 

The problem is Mat became something less. He went from a rogue to a court jester prancing around in motley. Combine that with the various mistakes, Brandon's cringe worthy dialogue/attempt at jokes and per his own admission it didn't turn out well.

I disagree, not only with you, but with Brandon Sanderson about his own writing. We are our own harshest critics. It is interesting to see that this is still the case in an established and relatively successful author.

@jak

 

Forgot about this from earlier in thread. Care to add your thoughts?

 

Remember people, statements like these: 

 

'The quality already dropped towards the end and the last thing the WoT legacy needs is to turn into some shoddy "shared world" scenario.'

 

'Lastly just because RJ had a planned slowdown that became bloated during the mid-late part of the series, does not in anyway excuse the large amounts of bloat and filler BS had during the climax.'

 

 

 

Are opinions, so to pass them off as fact is... wrong. 

 

Of course it's an opinion, but regardless of that, one can objectively point out a number of  quality issues in the last three books such as timeline errors and the numerous mistakes. More so the breaking of the the third wall and unpolished prose(TJ literally changed BS's writing process and asked for more time to deal with the quality problem) are fairly easy to identify. The bloat is also easy to identify. In terms of Mat himself we have BS admitting how badly he botched the character.

 

I mean you do understand literary analysis is not entirely subjective yes? I guess the proper question would bbe what exactly do you object to in my statement? I can provide concrete examples for each.

I thought Barid was shutting down the back and forth on Mr. Sanderson so I wasn't sure whether to continue. 

As for literary criticism... I agree. It is not ENTIRELY subjective. I know Brandon's writing wasn't perfect, but the fact is I enjoyed the last three books tremendously. You may have Brandon admitting that he botched something but that doesn't make him right. I don't remember anyone breaking the third wall, nor do I remember any bloat that contrasted at all with the earlier books that were written by RJ. 

Remember people, statements like these: 

'The quality already dropped towards the end and the last thing the WoT legacy needs is to turn into some shoddy "shared world" scenario.'

'Lastly just because RJ had a planned slowdown that became bloated during the mid-late part of the series, does not in anyway excuse the large amounts of bloat and filler BS had during the climax.'

Are opinions, so to pass them off as fact is... wrong. 

As for the thread topic, one sentence just isn't enough for a whole book to spring out of. I, for one, loved the last three books of the series and thought them a fitting conclusion, even if I have some criticisms about a lack of utilization where Perrin is concerned. But even if there were fairly fleshed out plans for outrigger novels, I would support the wished of our beloved RJ and if he doesn't want other people playing in his sandbox, that is his business.

Though I do agree with Suttree on one point. Shared world/universes written by many authors do have quality issues. Ex: Star Wars. 

UUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHH EPIC RAP BATTLES OF HISTORY!!!!!!!!

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM                             GGGGGGGGGUUUUUUUUUEEEEEEESSSSSSSSIIIIINNNNNGGGGGG TTTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTT           CCCCCCRRRRRIIIIIIIMMMSSSSSOOOOONNNNNNN___________________________AAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAA                        HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSS                                CCCCCCCCCLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOSSSSSSEEEEEEE                        TTTTTTTTTTOOOOOOOO                 TTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHEEEEEEE                        MMMMMMMMMMMMMOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTTT                      PPPPPPPPPPPOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTTSSSSSSSSSSSS                         OOOOOOOOOOOFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF                                   AAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNYYYYYYYYYYOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEE                    OOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNN                       DDDDDDRRRRRRRAAAAAAAGGGGGGGOOOOOONNNNNNNNMMMMMMMMMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNNNNTTTTTTTTTTT..........................................................................................

 

 

SSSSSPPAAAAMMMM TTTTTTHHHHHHHRRRRRRREEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!

not a bad attempt

MMAAAAYYBEEEEE HHEEEEE'S AAAAA WWHHAAAAALLEEEEEE?

 

HHEEEEEELLLLLOOOOOOOOOoooooo

 

WWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEERRRRRREEEEEEEEE                     IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSS             NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEMMMMMMMMMMMOOOOOOOOOOOOO??????????????

SSSSSPPAAAAMMMM TTTTTTHHHHHHHRRRRRRREEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!

I wish to wield the lightnings and ride the thunder! (I wanna join  )

 

The thing people seem to miss about Egwene is while one can question her unwavering faith in what is essentially a fallen AS institution, but one can not question her motives. Her internal thoughts are all about working towards the greater good and facing the shadow at the LB. Time and again we see the pressure she puts on herself to achieve that goal. To say she is motivated by personal power clearly has no grounding in the text. She even states the WT needs to  give up power and reform their ways:

 

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly...if we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title."

 

Also important to note that we as readers have an outside view of how far the WT has fallen. That said they have still been the major force holding the Shadow at bay for thousands of years. They are the only reason most people even remember the DO exists so from an in world perspective Egwene's faith makes sense.

 

'TFOH 15, What Can Be Learned From Dreams'

 

Moiraine sighed, a soft sound. "Do you expect me to be happy that the White Tower has split apart? I am Aes Sedai, Egwene. I gave my life to the Tower long before I ever suspected the Dragon would be Reborn in my lifetime. The Tower has been a bulwark against the Shadow for three thousand years. It has guided rulers to wise decisions, stopped wars before they began, halted wars that did begin. That humankind even remembers that the Dark One waits to escape, that the Last Battle will come, is because of the Tower. The Tower, whole and united. I could almost wish that every sister had sworn to Elaida, whatever happened to Siuan."

 

Yiss, yiss. I agree. Egwene, while sometimes pig-headed also really cares about the world and acknowledges the Tower's failures. To dismiss her as simply anything or anyway would be shortsighted. 

 

While i understand where Mr Ares is coming from about cads i have to say i disagree, its one thing to stand up for ones self and not to back down in a contest of wills with the DR, quite another to constantly goad and try to humiliate him in front of his men, i think just seeing how the others treated her convinced him she wasnt just another AS, she tried to get him to respect her or at least fear her, all she ended up doing was getting him to hate her and see her as just another arrogant manipulater.

 

It has been well broken down elsewhere but Cads took the only option available to her after a very careful study of Rand and the situation. Old post below:

 

In fact we know she did a ton of research on Rand and tested his character and sanity in their first meeting. She fell on a course of action based on the results that the WOs advocated as well.

 

 

"Most men will take what is offered, if it seems attractive and pleasant," Sorilea said. "Once, we thought of Rand al'Thor so. Unfortunately, it is too late to change the path we walk. Now, he suspects whatever is offered freely. Now, if I wanted him to accept something, I would pretend I did not want him to have it. If I wanted to stay close to him, I would pretend indifference to whether I ever saw him again." Once more, those eyes focused on Cadsuane, green augers. Not trying to see what lay inside her head. The woman knew.

 

- The Path of Daggers, New Alliances

 

Here decision on how to proceed was absolutely correct:

 

"If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect. There's good metal in that boy, I think, but he's going to be difficult." Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. "He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance .... Phaw! Al'Thor's not so hard yet as Logain Ablar or Mazrim

Taim, but a hundred times as difficult, I fear."

 

- A Crown of Swords, Diamonds and Stars

 

 

After how he was treated by other AS there was no other course of action she could have taken. He would have been distrustful of anything else.

 

But I must wait for him to come to me. You see the way he runs roughshod over Alanna and the others. It will be hard enough teaching him, if he does ask. He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won't learn at all."

 

- Winter’s Heart, Bonds

 

 

It should be noted that Moiraine told Eggy and AVi that this was exactly what Rand needed.

 

Rand will need both of you in the days to come. You handle his temper well – though I may say your methods are unusual. He will need people who cannot be driven away or quelled by his rages, who will tell him what he must hear instead of what they think he wants to.”

 

- The Fires of Heaven, News Comes To Cairhien

 

Towards the end the deterioration of things was mainly do to Rand's psychological darkness, he saw not only Cads but everyone in the worst possible light. The reality is she saved his life multiple times, she backed him to the hilt/executed a perfect defense at the cleansing, and she out of all the AS swore to do what was best for him, not herself or the WT. Compared to all of that calling him "boy"(often when he is acting like a child) is hardly an issue. It may have taken a lucky stroke at the end but Rand himself flat out states she took the correct course:

 

"I was broken," Rand said, hands behind his back. "And then, remarkably, I was reforged. I think he almost had me, Egwene. It was Cadsuane who set me to fixing it...

 

- Towers of Midnight

 

She doesn't care for titles, she hates politicking, and she never suffers fools. It's part of the reason the WO's respect her so much. She keeps her word and always works towards Rand's benefit(a driving piece of her character is trying to better those around her and we see her show compassion on a regular basis). Despite that all many fans seem to care about is "but ZOMFG she was a big meanie to the Dragon Reborn!"

 

"Exaggerated a wee bit" doesn't even begin to properly characterize the op's opinion. There can be no realistic discussion on the topic when one side starts from such a place.

 

Agreed.

'Come on, dude, one of the major criticisms of WOT is that all the female characters are variations on one uber character.' 

Nope... nope. Do you seriously think that Nyneave has the same personality as Egwene? Or Tylin? Or Elaida? Or Greandal? Or Mistress al'Vere? Do you think ANY of those characters have the same personality? 

What about Setalle Anan? 'you are an unconventionally wise man, Matrim Cauthon.' She says that to Mat. WHABAM!  See, women are not always telling the men that they are stupid. You are off base! 

Honestly Egwene is the one of the only irredeemably bitchy characters this side of Elaida and Tuon... which is why her being considered the go-to "strong woman" of the series always irked me. She's the closest thing the books have to a Mary Sue if you ask me, and the bullshit she pulls on Nynaeve (and the fact that Nynaeve lets her do it) is a perfect example of other characters dumbing down and bending themselves to fit her whenever she's in the scene.  The only times I found myself rooting for her were those rare moments when she is faced with an opponent even more frustrating than she is. Otherwise, she simply tries to sell out her friends to every group of authoritative women she meets (first helping the Wise Ones manipulate Rand, then the Aes Sedai, then manipulating Mat for the Aes Sedai, then trying to manipulate Rand into giving up his prophesied duty to her because of course the farm girl who's been outside Emond's Field for two years knows better than the Dragon Re-goddamn-born).  I was glad she died, I just wish she'd died sooner and less gloriously, as befits her personality.

 

There are plenty of examples of strong, likable female characters in the books: Birgitte, Moiraine, Siuan [removed], Faile, Berelain, Verin,  Nynaeve, Elayne (I guess), Aviendha, the Wise Ones, Setalle Anan... Christ, I could probably sit here for an hour writing out names. But Egwene should be left in a small box somewhere, because she's terrible.

Right, right right. Very good. I'm probably a LITTLE more tolerant of Egwene than you are but thats fine. You're right, we could go on all day naming female characters that are just fine. [removed]

      I too, dislike the Aes Sedai and their never-ending pride,  but not ALL of the women act that way. Many are just fine. Egwene is, as Rand says, (SEE! they DO stand up for themselves) she is a self-certain unmitigated brat SOMETIMES. When she was trying to free the tower from Elaida I was rooting for her. I was laughing and fist pumping at her victories and grating my teeth at her loses. All are flawed characters: THEY ARE HUMAN BEINGS but all or almost all are REDEEMABLE. You accuse Egwene of wanting absolute power but that is easily refutable, she does NOT ask for command of the armies at the last battle. She does not want the command of nations and she does not try to get it. She is not as bad as you make out. 

     I totally disagree on Perrin. Perrin loves Faile. That should be enough. He wouldn't sell the world to the DO' he worries that he'd be TEMPTED to, that's different, that's human. Also, you're accusation of 'winy wolfboy is absurd and ludicrous. He is not worried because he can TALK to wolves, he is worried that he will become like Nome. Consumed by the wolf, an animal. To snarl and bite at people he knows and loves, to kills things with his teeth, to go mad. And if that is not something to fear than what is? 

    The women are infuriating at times, but not always. But think of it this way. They call men fools, we are. 'Such is the nature of the world, that no man may know everything.' We all make mistakes. Nyneave is stubborn, she doesn't like to admit she is wrong, but SHE MAKES AN EFFORT. These characters aren't perfect, neither are you or I. No one likes to be wrong. But she is a good person at core, it would be hard to live with Nyneave but if you love someone, you forgive them their faults.

Also, Elayne does not act as badly as you describe, neither do the Aiel women. I am also rather fond of all of the borderlanders, Lan, Moiraine who never acts like you describe. I may not approve of everything the characters do, but  I don't approve of everything my FRIENDS do in real life.

As for that whole things about 'all the male characters should be gay,' I'll let the ignorance of that statement speak for itself.  

 

 

 I don't know what you mean by 'whinge' but Perrin does not whine... The most ignorant of your statements was that he was 'whingeing' :P

 

Indeed...how ignorant of Elan to hit the nail on the head.

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/whinge

 

Uh no, he did not complain fretfully... no. As I explained before, he did not want leadership and there is nothing wrong or weird about that.

 

Usually would never go with argumentum ad populum but feel safe doing so here. You may be the first poster I have ever seen at DM or Theoryland who has taken the above stance. If there is one thing that can't be argued it's that he complained in a fretful manner about leadership and Faile's capture over the course of multiple books. Not wanting leadership and not whinging about the situation are two vastly different things.

 

Again, quote the source material or else you have NO evidence to substantiate you claim. 

I never liked Perrin and I downright hated faile. what made Perrin so annoying to me was his unrelenting desire to do the right thing- that's unnatural! and the worse thing is that he usually managed to do so or he whined about not knowing what to do or how to do it. Mat and Rand on the other hand feel much more realistic on that aspect: Mat is a good man and he usually does the right thing but on the way he drinks gambles and curses a lot- that makes him human. Rand makes the bad choise half the time and when he does the right thing its hardly recognized by others and his guilt and frustration aloow us to identify with him0 and the most important thing is that they don't think things as much as Perrin, they ACT, even if it sometimes leads to disaster- that's what makes them human. Besides, no 20 years old think about things as much as Perrin, young people have a tendency to act recklessly.

 

the only time I felt I understood Perrin and his motives was when Faile was kidnapped- yes he was insufferable and yes it was one of the most boring sagas in the series but I could relate to perrin because he did all the bad choices he didn't try to be noble and a saint all the time- in fact, he stopped carrying about what's going on around him all together- AND IT MADE SENSE: the woman he loved (god knows why) was kidnapped, he doesn't know when will be the next time he sees her- if ever- and nothing else seems important compare to this.

 

To me, perrin was always one of the least accomplished character of RJ

 

You are seriously going to dislike a character because he was trying to be a good person? An unrelenting desire to do the right thing is unnatural? No. It is perfectly natural, we do not always accomplish this and neither does Perrin, but the desire is perfectly natural. 

 

 I don't know what you mean by 'whinge' but Perrin does not whine... The most ignorant of your statements was that he was 'whingeing' :P

 

Indeed...how ignorant of Elan to hit the nail on the head.

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/whinge

 

Uh no, he did not complain fretfully... no. As I explained before, he did not want leadership and there is nothing wrong or weird about that. He did not want it for reasons already mentioned. If you can quote the 'souce' (see what I did there :P) material and I cannot refute it or put it in context then you will have proved you point, until then he did not hit anything on the head.