Interesting he shared the pages per episode stat, I did some calculations on words per minute between a number of series in a post last year that showed the same thing, I compared LOTR and Harry Potter as well. 
 

I am really concerned he is show running 2 major series, it just makes it feel that WOT is being pushed down Amazons priority list now it has LOTR. Yes he has worked on multiple projects before. But nothing as big as WOT alongside GOW which I hope will be given as much dedication as ROP and WOT, The game series is amazing. 

More mixing to deliver the story overall feeds into the idea that Falme and Tear will be merged in some way, or at the very least you won’t have the back and forth travel of the 3 women. I can see Min being sent with a message to the tower after Falme but Nyn and Elayne traveling to tear directly. 

My prediction is that all 3 boys end up at Falme, but probably in a different way to the books. Mat will need to be there to blow the horn and Rand to "sheath the sword". 

I also imagine we will see the 3 women in Tar Valon, the accepted test for Nyn and then them also in Falme for the same reasons. 

On 12/29/2021 at 1:36 AM, Marquestor said:

In my mind, Loial is essentially Robert Jordan. That is, he is the chronicler of this epic tale, sometimes by being present during some of the events, and at others by interviewing the other characters, and piecing together rumors and relevant documents.

 

After I wrote the paragraph above (on another site), I got to thinking... Could Loial being stabbed by Padan Fain be seen as a metaphor for what the TV series has done to Robert Jordan's books? And on a side note (and one I won't really fight for), could his coming back in season 2 represent Brandon Sanderson?

 

Another thing about Loial, in the books, he is often easily mistaken for a Trolloc, but here, while his appearance may be somewhat off-putting, it is scarcely terrifying. I can not fault the actor, he does the best he can, with what he is given, and while his voice (even if it is somehow enhanced?) is acceptable, his appearance, not so much.

I think your looking too deeply, Matt was intended to be stabbed in episode 8, the actor wasn't available so they had to re write the ending. It makes it so much more impactful for perrin, he refuses to lift up the axe and as a result his best friend is stabbed by Fain 

12 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

yes, romance was a weak spot for jordan, and i like how it's being developed in the show.

Still, I'd have preferred if Lan would put up at least some of the resistance he did in the book. "I can't be with you, you'd become a widow soon". They could have had Lan give that speech, and Nynaeve convince him to let go, in less than 5 minutes.

There is still room for this, still room for Lan to back away from Nyn, regretting what has happened. Time for him to think that this one night of weakness allowed him to slip up and let Morraine escape from him. In some ways it makes that emotional journey more distinct. Love vs Duty Emotion vs Loyalty. 

8 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

But we'd have lost the actress' facial expressions. She delivered a great performance there. It's a limitation of the medium.

 

Judging from all the stuff they are doing to "adapt to the medium" i'm coming to the conclusion that tv screen is a terrible medium to tell a story with any kind of intricate plot or worldbuilding. It's only good for action scenes and scenery porn

This I think will lead to the Aiel being less strict with Veiling in the show, in a book you can describe what is going on behind the veil, if you put the veil on the actors it becomes a lot harder to act the emotion, unless you are Tom Hardy levels of good. 

I don't see the "Love Triangle" as a true love triangle. I see it as the very start of Rand developing his side effects from the taint. He is getting paranoid, seeing things that are not there. It shows that Nyn herself is not always right when it comes to emotions and feelings between people. Perrin and Egwene has not been sold to the viewer as a viable love story so I think we will see more irrational behaviour from Rand as the show progresses. 

11 hours ago, bmarluke said:

Total Dissatisfaction - 
 

The only positive I can think of for the loosely adapted TV series “The Wheel of Time” is that it might get more people to read the books. The TV series is a poor B rated fantasy at best. Adding useless fillers and skimping on meaningful character development. I posted over a year ago about the importance of white space. That it can calm the mind from the action and builds off other events. Making those events more impactful. This gives time to understand the people. The story. Builds empathy. Instead we have a fast paced sprint, with totally unnecessary fluff. If things need to be cut down, fine. Cut. Don’t add.
 

“Hey! Lets have Perrin kill his pregnant wife! It will make him look more tortured!” Boooooo! 
 

“Let’s have Rand and Egwane have sex! Because we don’t know how to show two people in love any other way! And we are ignorant of how this totally screws (pun intended) the story up later.” How lame. 

 

“Lets change the color of a lot of the characters, then make Padan Fain a racist stereotype!” It was not clear Fain was evil in the first book. It’s called foreshadowing! 

 

This TV adaptation could have been great. It didn’t need 10 million an episode. Disappointing and another opportunity lost to corporate Nincompoopery. Joining the likes of the Dark Tower movie and The Hobbit series. What a shame! 

As someone who has read the full series 3 times through and from the Fires of Heaven re read the whole series before the next book was released, the changes you berate I fully understand. To turn the books page for page into a TV series would require probably an average of 30+ hours per book. There is no way that series is getting made. So you need to make cuts, and figure out ways to show aspects of personality in a scene which in the books takes chapters and chapters. I do not like the fact Perrin killed his wife, I do like the fact he killed someone. In a single act in a single moment it defines his character in a way that the books, necessarily, take ages to get to. It does it in a way that show's and doesn't tell and it makes the audience invested in him. Now I wish he had killed anyone else other then his wife, and Rafe has discussed this and explained that, in the very short time he was given by Amazon to tell the story, this made the most sense because it pushed the character to where he needed him to be. 

Rand and Egwene, again I really don't mind the change, it allows in a scene to show the 2 are starting a relationship (I always found it impossible to believe they where not doing anything when I first read EOTW as a 16yo seeing as I had a girlfriend that I was doing stuff with and they where 19-20 yo). As for how this screws up the story later, it really doesn't, in fact it makes it easier to tell. Again in one scene Rafe has set the stall that there is a real relationship between these 2 people without losing time in dialogue, so later on when they go there own ways and the relationship shifts it becomes an easier story to tell with the limited time the series has. 

The nationality of the characters, I think is about perfect. That is not a discussion I will get into, other then to say I imagine I picture them differently to you. As for Fain, again Rafe has a scene to introduce him and needs to show he is important to the story. Personally I would have loved to have already seen him marching with the Trollocs and entering Shadar Logath even if that is out of order of when you find that out in the books. 

Rafe has said that originally he had a vision of a longer episode count ot each series and a 2 hour first episode to be able to introduce the characters better but Amazon where very strict on insisting that modern TV is 8 one hour episodes that rush through the story. I think we as book fans need to re-asses what in the story is actually important to tell. I have a feeling (and hope I am wrong) that the Aeis Sedai civil war may well be seriously truncated down to just a short fight in the tower itself with no army formed and no second tower raised for instance because realistically the events of that could easily be 8 episodes all on their own but, taking the Peter Jackson approach, that story doesn't tell the story of how Rand gets to the last battle.  

Mixed feelings about this, happy it is doing well but on the back of Rafes Reddit the other day the fast pace and lack of time to let things breathe, along with the 8 episode limit, are all imposed by Amazon who insisted that modern viewing habits are short series that flow quickly from set piece to set piece. Gone are slow build series. Based on this if BSG or Babylon 5 where made today they would be over in 20 episodes. This series is going to be a whistle stop tour of the highlights of the books that will make good TV and as a result I think storylines such as the splitting of the white tower will be blink and miss it events, if they happen at all. 

1 hour ago, kedryn alan said:

He shared a few things he didn’t like. There are always going to be things people liked about a book that get cut/changed/condensed in a show. But he also repeatedly praised the show and its creators. It’s unfair to leave that out and color his commentary as concerned or worthy of raising flags.

 

”This team is excellent, I have to say. Episode six is the best--least, I think that's the number of the one I'm thinking about--so be on the lookout for it. But they have real respect for the story, and are good writers. This is an enormously difficult project to undertake, and I'm quite impressed by Rafe and everyone involved.” - Brandon Sanderson

Yes he gave praise, but I have seen other comments and criticisms by him on other areas of the internet, if he wasnt a producer attached to the project I would agree with you but please tell me anywhere in the past that someone connected to a project who was unhappy about it has come out in the moment and publicly complained, the only people I can think of are members of Game of Thrones who made very cryptic hints about disappointments in the lead into the final season red carpet, and then afterwards when it had all came out where more vocal about there issues once it was all over. Usually someone in Brandon Sandersons shoes would just keep quiet until it is all out and done. Full credit to him for his honesty but I do wonder how much is he also keep quiet about in fear of being asked to leave the project in the future? I may be wrong, I am open to seeing how this evolves but the fact is this is probably the worst opening 2 episodes to any TV series I have seen in a long time in terms of pacing, and scene setting and just getting us engaged with the characters. Lord of the rings doesn't labour over it, Peter Jackson gives you glimpses of merry and pippin (with the fireworks) to let you know what their characters are, he gives you a chance to get to know Samwise. He even gives you a good sense of the Tooks with just one passing camera pan. An introduction to Emonds Field should have felt like that opening to the Fellowship and could have done with the budget Amazon is throwing at this. Then you would have cared about people being killed by the trollocs. Then just a few mins on how the various families react to being told their children have to leave. I really fear that this whole series will be about set piece to set piece with the stuff in between being classed simply as filler I hope I am wrong but noting Rafe has been involved in until now convinces me otherwise. Agents of shield largely started out as Monster of the Week, and that had 22 episodes to get going properly. 

On 11/22/2021 at 9:37 PM, Gherrick said:

I can appreciate this adaptation for exactly what it is. Consider the need to take so many threads and plotlines and condense them sufficiently enough that you can still tell the same main story. Consider that a large percentage of the story was told via internal monologue, and how difficult it is to translate into a visual medium. Consider that the target audience includes both those very and unfamiliar with the books. I appreciate than Harriet and Brandon are involved, if not always heeded.

 

Yes, I do disagree with some of the background changes made. Still, I can enjoy what was done, and none of the changes so far have left me so emotionally scarred as to flag this adaptation as an utter failure after just 3 episodes...

 

I do think everyone involved are trying to do right by RJ, and it saddens me to see so much of his fanbase being dismissive or outright hostile to this adaptation. I'm glad that the showrunner acknowledges that it will take at least 8 seasons. I still see enough of the original source to support letting it thrive until completion. Personally, I would LOVE it if the showrunner could address some of the plot threads left unfinished by the books. 

 

I have no issues with condensing or tweaking the story, I love what Peter Jackson did with Lord of the Rings and fully supported my fav scene (tom bombadil) being removed. 

But PJ stuck to the basic rules of Tolkiens world, and, in a far shorter running time he allowed the characters to breathe and develop. By the time the Hobbits where on their way even people who don't know the books cared about the hobbits and understood them enough to know the motivation. 

So far Rafe seems to be carrying out a whistle stop tour of the highlights of the books and isn't caring about things like character development, understanding drivers and motivations. He seems to be trying to out do GOT last season for trying to cram as much story as possible into as short a time as possible. Ignoring the wheel of time connection so far this is just a bad tv show which is ok, trashy fantasy has it's place on TV, but it isn't heralded as a big budget extravaganza that will be the jewel in a networks programming (unless that network is the horror channel or scifi channel). I can forgive alot of changes, but affecting the fundamental foundations for no clear reason I cant. 

I will say another thing, Brandon Sanderson is a producer, his name is in the credits, and he is being far more open and honest about mistakes that have been made then many fans are. Yes he isn't openly attacking the show, he wont, he is a producer, but he is being far far more upfront and honest then ANY producer I have ever seen on any show in history when it is being broadcast. That should raise alarm bells. 

11 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

I actually can't believe he said this. 

I mean unless you like your breathing to be a crazy intense mass of hyperventilation of course, in that case he is accurate ? 

6 hours ago, FanofKnotai said:

There are a number of things wrong with this episode’s portrayal of our favorite series. One of the biggest is Bornhold telling Moiraine to seek Aes Sedai assistance. Never in a million years would he do that. If the reviewer believes they did this to display the conflict between the Questioners and the Whitecloaks, I believe this could have been accomplished with as simple a thing as Geofram condemning the way Eamon killed the Yellow. A quick “why are you wasting our time with these elaborate executions? just kill the witch and let us be on our way” while Valda scowled at the back of a retreating Bornhold, would have established the same thing without destroying the essence of the Whitecloaks.  Second is Moiraine’s feigned deferential attitude towards the Whitecloaks. In the series Moiraine did not invite unnecessary attention or danger upon the group but neither did she EVER cower or stoop below the standards befitting her station as an Aes Sedai.  I disagree with the reviewers comment regarding toxic masculinity. One of the things that I love about this series and which makes it enjoyable to read repeatedly is the fact that Jordan had ridiculously strong female leads. He portrayed women in a way that demonstrated not only their capacity for kindness and nurturing. But also their intelligence, cunning, ruthlessness and raw power. While reading the series I never once got the impression that the women were any less…well anything than the men. But this series tries to pander to the whims of our current time by making the women boastfully stronger and more prevalent then the men.  In the books Jordan used Lan to “lead” the party out of the Two Rivers with his actions and his words. But it was always clear whose bidding he was doing and who was really in control. That silence, the idea that mundane trivial matters were beneath her efforts, is what made Moiraine (and subsequent Aes Sedai) such strong and effective characters. So far in this series I believe Rosamund Pike is asserting her influence to place herself too far into the spotlight and is accomplishing nothing but alienating the audience. I did however enjoy the Shadar Logoth sequence. With not having Nynaeve and Thom in the scenes, the way it played out did not seem bad to me. I believe this Matt would totally have stolen the dagger despite the warning “not 30 seconds ago”. Because he is a thieving scoundrel. The real Matt never stole a thing.  But apparently this Matt does. ??‍♂️?

I don't think this is Rosamund Pike, I think this is all Rafe and his creative decisions 

3 hours ago, GanoesParan said:

I believe if you watch that scene again that you will see a shadowy figure for just a second. 

It really should have been made clearer, I watched the episode with 3 people who have not read the books and all 3 of them scoffed at Matt simply wandering off despite Lans warning and stumbling across a box with a knife in it, and then picking it up. I actually had to pause the show and explain what happens in the book to try and give them some context, they all agreed that it wouldn't have taken much to replicate that in the show, so no the shadow wasn't obvious.

8 hours ago, GanoesParan said:

I thoroughly enjoyed episode 1 and I liked episode 2 even better. With episode 1, we see that Mat stole a gold bracelet so that he could buy laterns for his sisters. We see that Mat and his family is poor and he is a gambler. In Shadar Logoth, Mat leaves the building where Moiraine and Lan are resting after Rand and Egwene go exploring. 

A shadow of Madashar lures Mat into another building when he goes exploring. That shadow lure leads Mat to the ruby dagger. So seeing how the show has set up Mat's character, it fits his character that he is tempted to leave Perrin, Lan, and Moiraine. 

In the show there is no shadow luring Matt he just finds the dagger 

For me episode 3 is a stronger better episode, largely because it has what episode 1 and 2 lack, space to breathe. The fact remains however that given an 8 episode series it feels like 2 episodes have been wasted. 
 

One moment of perfect cinematography and foreshadowing is the scene where Matt is looking at the Aiel, the camera lingers on the face before then cutting to Rand (who’s casting was brilliant, so far his complexion and colouring have made him appear different to all those around him, something my wife who hasn’t read the books pointed out to me). 
 

Introducing Thom at this moment also works well. Nothing has been lost by waiting a beat for that character and it makes sense. The twist of the dark friend was also cleverly done. 
 

It seems clear that when sketching out the first book Rafe decided the story doesn’t really begin until the group are split apart and he is probably right. However in getting here he has rushed the previous 2 episodes and we are in a situation where we still have a lot of story to tell in just 5 hours. 
 

Peter Jackson showed with LOTR that when trying to dissect a long epic and turn it into a movie you must focus purely on the main story and cut anything that does not directly link to that. I fully accept that to deliver the wheel of time huge swathes of story will need to be cut, condensed, amalgamated and changed. I hope Episide 3 shows that the series can improve but I genuinely fear Amazon may well find themselves pulling the plug before we get to the last battle if the quality of production does not significantly improve. 

In the opinion of myself and many many others the pacing of episode 2 was far to fast, it carry’s on from episode 1 in that it doesn’t really help you engage with the main characters, yes you understand white cloaks are bad, yes you get the rules but did the uninformed viewer really learn enough to start getting invested in our hero’s. It doesn’t help that the group travel for days on end without making that clear, you see them spend 2 nights before shadar with no mention that they have been traveling much longer. 
 

Matts finding of the dagger is also awkward to explain, I watched the episode with 3 people who have never read the books and that one scene instantly made them laugh at the stupidity of it, he just happened to find a dagger and take it despite the warning not 30 seconds before. 
 

Personally I also would have liked to have seen more of Fain in this episode, for the sake of a few mins you could have shown him amongst the Trollocs (as he is in the books at this point in time). That could then have led at the end to seeing him exit the city the sounds of Trollocs slowly dwindling as one by one they are killed, he looks back and walks off into the dark. The audience understand then that he is a bad guy and important. 
 

These first 2 “pilot” episodes make WOT feel like a low budget Sci Fi channel series and not the crown jewel of Amazons play list. In this day and age when streaming services are delivering quality content like See, The Boys, the Expanse and Foundation that come out of the gates running hard this is unforgivable. If Season one had a 15 episode count then we could forgive an opening couple of episodes that driver poor pacing, dialogue and effects (some of the Trolloc outfits look like a guy in a gorilla suit). But we don’t, one quarter of the season has instead been eaten up by this poor start, this feels very much like John Carter of Mars as opposed to Star Wars right now.

I have to disagree with the statement that things are allowed to breathe. Watching it there is nothing of the sort, the episode jumps from

character to character giving you flashes of information but nothing to get invested in or think about. By the end when Nym is taken by Trollocs the viewer doesn’t care even if they know they should because a main character is upset by it, because we don't know who Nym or anyone else really is, what she stands for or why she matters.
 

You can only really get a view of this if you get the reaction of someone who has not read the books and in the words of many friends of mine who meet that criteria by the end of episode 1 the general consensus was, they could all die tomorrow and I wouldn’t really be bothered. 
 

If you compare it to the opening episode of Game of Thrones at the end of that episode you care deeply about bran even though you have only met him over the past 45 mins. 

9 hours ago, VanMan87 said:

Multiple issues and where do we true fans begin.

1) Battle of Two Rivers (as portrayed in the show) - does not take place in Eye of the World (as seen in show… yes it happens, but not described by Robert Jordan). The book is all about Rand and Tam fighting trollocs and Rand carrying him to Emonds Field to only discover about the fight then.

SAVING GRACE- weaving of one power for the fight was fantastic! Will give tons of credit there. I was always curious how filming would show the ONE POWER, but damn if they did not do a good job

2) Perrin married - simply put, why? Outrageous change to whole story

3) Rand and Egwene - book is all about their prepubescent frustration and inability to read emotions. NOT them sneaking sex. The whole first few books is all about their sexual frustration. Rand himself is always confused about sex until Min basically.

Very disappointed

4) Bella is a brown mare

5) Mat’s father was not described as an adulterous bastard

6) Moiraine was not hit with a Trolloc knife (I may be wrong, but I just don’t remember this)

7) Where is Thom?

 

that’s just seven problems. There are so many more and I just have to question why? It seems like the story didn’t matter at all. Game of Thrones was very book driven in the first few episodes and for some reason the best fantasy saga ever written can’t be adapted well.

 

I am supremely upset. 

I agree with most of this but one thing, there seems a misconception that the main characters are younger then they are at the start of the books, Rand, Perrin, Matt and Egwene are 19 and a half in eye of the world, so in many ways the depiction of them being immature and unaware of sex and relationships doesn't make sense in a lot of ways. 

As for the fight in Emonds Field while Robert Jordan may present it off page really it needed to be shown on screen in order to Show and not Tell, you would have had tons of exposition as characters explained what had happened. 

The changes to Matts background I like, it makes a lot more sense for his development and gives a sense of a wider world, like the subtle comment in episode 3 that confirms same sex relationships are a thing in the world of the wheel of time. As for his actions later on in episode 3 I think that demonstrates the effects of the knife on him. 

Pro's for me 

The difference in casting between Rand and the rest of the 2 rivers, it was subtle but my wife, who has no idea of the books or story, commented early on how he looks different to his dad and the other people in the 2 rivers. She also commented on how the dead Aiel had the same colouration as Rand. Those are the clever little things that can be shown on TV subtly as foreshadowing. 

The Introduction of Thom, while it doesn't happen until episode 3 it makes narrative sense in terms of introducing characters and gives him a great moment to appear. The introductions of the main characters was rushed as it was without fitting another one into the first episode. 

They writers obviously made a decision that the main story of Eye of the World doesn't really start until the party are split, so wanted to get us to that point to then dedicate time to the 2nd half of the book. This kind of makes sense 

Con's people have not mentioned. 

Padin Fain, a key character in the story who makes a brief appearance and then vanishes. I hope we see his story told in an episode soon or I worry he will become a side character and not the main antagonist he is in the books. 

Matt's finding of the knife, my wife was just perplexed, it could have been explained a lot better.