Elayne has no claim on Saldea, she has a very small connection to it.  With Perrin giving stewardship of the Two Rivers to Tam, and his and that chit's ascension to the throne, Ghealdan is no longer tied to Elayne either.  Its only an alliance by desire now.

Perrin and Faile both swore oaths to Elayne, last i checked, and are considered subjects of Elayne. After Tenobia and Bashere died, Faile became Queen of Saldea, meaning that Elayne just got a very strong claim there. Could Faile simply break off and not subject herself to Elayne? It is entirely possible, but that's simply conjecture. Regardless, Perrin is not likely to leave the Two Rivers. Where did Perrin give Tam stewardship? I'm pretty sure he just left him in command for Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Most of this is, unfortunately, conjecture. At the time of AMOL, however, Elayne had control of Andor, Cairhien, Manatherin, and Ghealdon. It is hard to say what the future will bring.

Every ruler in Randland USED to kiss the Amyrlin's ring.

As of AMOL, they are still doing it, so...

 

The biggest ruler in Randland is the Seachan,they consider the Amyrlin an animal not even human.

The Seachan have absolute control of several nations--but very little outside of that. The Aiel hate them, the White Tower hates them, Illian hates them, Arad Doman hates them, the Seafolk hate them, Elayne's supernation hates them, etc.

 

And if you want to talk about the largest nation, that goes to Elayne, who control Ghealdean, Manatherin, Andor, and Cairhien, as compared to Tarabon, Amadacia, and Altara. And before you say anything, yes that is more land and more people than the Seachan.

 

 

YOu seems to not understand difference between every and some.And not understand difference between ultimate power and one of the powers.

I don't even understand what you are saying here.

However you spin it. Siuan Sanche as Amyrlin had more power over Randlands than Egwene as Amyrlin.Cads will have even less power than Egwene had in her small tenure.It is a downward spiral. The female domination of Randland is over. The Dragon ended it.

Egwene was in power for, what, two months? During that time she was able to call upon several monarchs to come to her. Whereas before, channeling was illegal in Tear and being Aes Sedai was illegal in Amadacia, now the Tower has multiple countries at their command. The only way they've lost influence is by losing Aes Sedai (they're down to like 200 sisters now), and that applies to pretty much every power base right now.

 

 

Tear and Illian were at FOM against Rand's plan for the seals not to follow the WT.

They went at Egwene's urging to support Egwene's opinion, with Egwene providing them with transportation to and from. And once Egwene agreed with Rand, they agreed almost immediately. They may not be answering directly to Egwene, but that suggests a certain amount of influence, no?

 

 

If the Amyrlin Seat expects every ruler in Randland to kiss her ring now she has another thing coming.That age is over.

Somebody better tell every ruler in Randland this, since in the meeting in the FoM we see most of them come up to Egwene and kiss her ring:

[Darlin] hesitated, then dismounted and came forward, bowing his head and kissing the ring. “The Light illumine you, Mother.”

 

...

 

[Gregorian] didn’t wait for Egwene to prod him; he swung from his horse and seized her hand, executing a flourishing bow and a kiss to the ring.

 

...

 

The other rulers allowed Egwene to enter before them.

Doesn't exactly scream disrespect.

My point being that the White was the single most important insitution in the third age.Is it in the same position in the fourth age?. Absolutely not. Cairhien and Andor are ruled by one AS. Altara is ruled by the Seachan not any AS.

 

The power of the WT in the third age was tht fact tht no other group could use the OP openly. Once that monoploy was broken,the WT was on the way down.

An Aes Sedai rules one third of the Westlands, and they have more pull on the independent factions than any other group. The Aiel have already shown respect for Cads, Nynaeve, and Elayne. Androl (who, as far as i can tell, is the second most influential person in the Black Tower) is bonded to an Aes Sedai, and it is likely those two groups will integrate. Tear and Illian have already shown that they still bow to the will of the Amyrlin Seat, that's why they were at the FoM in the first place. The Windfinders are devoutly opposed to the Seachan. Elayne has a small claim on Saldea, and the Queen of Malkier is another Aes Sedai. The White Tower, right now, is strong. And there's no reason to believe it won't be the center for learning and channeling for the next few hundred years, since the Aiel and Windfinders are likely to maintain their own, separate cultural identity and the Seachan are gonna have a hard time getting that rule.

 

And the future doesn't matter to this discussion, since we are talking about the authority of the Amyrlin Seat right now, not down the line.

 

Edit: "Has influence over" is not the same as "rules". The White Tower doesn't rule the Black Tower, but they are more likely to be able to affect what the Black Tower is doing than any other group, at present.

The time of the Wite Tower as a female only organization which is the pre emininent power in Rand land is finished.It will never ever get that power again now that the men can channel.End of story.

 

If the WT has to become the leading power in Randland it will have to integerated with the men but then that is not the WT of the third age.

 

Your point being...what, exactly? The White Tower is still considered the most influential power in the Westlands. Most of the nations still respect the Tower in the utmost and Cairhien, Andor, Manatherin, and Altara are ruled by an Aes Sedai. They also have strong ties to all of the other channeler groups.

 

The White Tower is probably the most powerful institution outside of the Seachan, and the Amyrlin Seat is probably the most powerful person besides the Empress.

 

Nope the WHite Tower will never be as powerful as it was in the third age because there are a no of other institutions who are as powerful and cannot be dominated by the White Tower in Randland in the fourth age.

Influence can wax and wane. I imagine that, with the upcoming compact, the White Tower will become the de facto center for channelers--especially if it starts to become integrated with the Black Tower.

 

If EGwene is the pope,Rand is Jesus. Figure out who is superior.Her power is only due to her position,his power is his very being.

Wat.

 

 

Edit:

Not with the Seachan there.At the end of LB the Seachan holds the most territory in Randland and has by far the greatest fighting power of them all.

They don't hold that much territory, compared to the rest of the Westlands (and it is likely the Borderlanders will begin to absorb the Blight). Most of the countries that don't belong the Seachan will indubitably side with the White Tower over the Seachan.

 

Military might doesn't matter cause there isn't going to be a war. Mat won't let Tuon break her word, and they have to retake Seacha anyway. In this case, the Amyrlin Seat will have a much better time winning allies, since the Empress would consider it "below" her.

She is not the equal of the Dragon reborn in anyway (In Egwene's mind I am sure she thought she was) and the Amyrlin Seat is no more the supreme leader in Randland.That age has passed.Egwene realizes that in certain situations like where she understands there is no way the White Tower can keep sole control of objects of Power anymore with the Black Tower in existence,in certain other situations she reverts back to what the Amyrlin Seat WAS but not anymore.

 

She should have requested her superior, the Dragon conduct her wedding.

 

The Dragon is not the god-emperor of everything, able to do whatever he wants and expect everyone to bow to him. That was the entire error of Rand's thinking in the first place. He does not rule over the Amyrlin Seat, and he can't walk into a country and expect everyone to obey. We saw the results of this in TGS. There needs to be checks on Rand, people to say he's wrong. Anyway, its clear that the Amyrlin Seat is still considered the second most powerful person in the Westlands--look at the scenes with the different leaders, where they all come up and bow to Egwene and kiss her ring. Now that the civil war is over, the White Tower is once again becoming as influential as it once was.

 

Beyond that, even if Rand is more powerful than Egwene, that doesn't make him her superior. That's not how power structure works. She's like the Pope of the catholic church--she might not be the most powerful, but when it comes to religious duties she can't be seen answering to anyone.

 

That said, i kinda wish Egwene got Nynaeve to marry them. It would have been nice to see her call back to her roots that way.

 

 

 

Perrin didn't want to ride; he told her so and she insisted and wore him down..... Not altruistic: further proof of her horrible nature

...what

 

 

tEotW, pp333, POV Perrin

"From the start Perrin knew the jiurney to Caenlyn was going to be far from comfortable, beginning with Egwene's insistence that they take turns riding Bela,.... Her jaw firmed, and her eyes stated at him unblinking."

 

Continue on for her standard brow beating and coercion.

 

"....bullied him in to the saddle....."

 

It should be known that Perrin didn't want to ride because he was concerned about his weight and Bela's endurance.. So i guess we have found ANOTHER EXAMPLE of Egwene's awefulness. She didn't even think about her hourse..

Yeah, okay then.

 

Egwene had to force Perrin into the saddle because he was insistent on bearing more of the load than he should. On the converse, Perrin was also forcing Egwene into the saddle. That blade cuts both ways.

 

The complaint about Bela is, as far as i can tell, not even mentioned in the book, and doesn't become an issue (Bela is never the reason they are moving too slowly). So even if that complaint is in the book, it doesn't hold water.

 

How in the holy hell this scene can be used as proof that Egwene is a self-involved narcissist is absolutely  mindblowing. I really don't know what to say.

It's nowhere close to torture. Egwene was intentionally breaking the rules, knowing full well the consequences for doing so. Silviana never gave her more punishment than what Egwene had essentially asked for.

 

The same argument could be made for the Seachan and the damane. As long as a damane does its duty, it should not be punished.

 

 

I'm not going to get into a semantic argument over the word "torture". Those never end well. Fine, Silviana didn't torture Egwene, just spent a few weeks attempting to beat her into submission multiple times a day. Happy?

Perrin didn't want to ride; he told her so and she insisted and wore him down..... Not altruistic: further proof of her horrible nature 

...what

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Egwene was on a power trip from hell during the entire Last Battle, thinking she was the only one who mattered ("all of the Aes Sedai can die, but as long as I live, the White Tower stands!")

Did she say this? I don't remember her saying that. I think a few times she noted that she was very important to keep alive (as the leader of the largest group of channelers), which is a nice bit of pragmatism compared to Elayne or Rand's "i can do everything myself, oh shit i got captured". Without her in the lead, it would be hard for the Aes Sedai to unite on anything.

 

I think she said something like that after the Sharans first appeared and things were looking very, very bad.

 

 

 

Found it.

It was true. She let him hold her, letting his familiar scent calm her. But how could she simply wait as soldiers and Aes Sedai who depended on her were slaughtered? Light, a huge portion of the White Tower was out there! If this army fell, and those women with it . . .

 

I am the Amyrlin Seat, she told herself firmly. I will be strong. I will survive. So long as I live, the White Tower stands.

Yeah, she's saying that as the leader of the Aes Sedai, her continued survival was incredibly important to the survival of the institution as a whole. That after such a debilitating attack, she would be needed to impose order on the chaos. Or else the entire White Tower could fall apart or fall into internal struggle again. Or perhaps she's saying that she would continue to represent the White Tower as long as she lived. It's not dissimilar to Lan's "as long as i live, Malkier still has a king".

 

I can't really see how "I'm important" is the same as "I'm the only thing that matters". The first might be arrogant if it wasn't also certainly true--Egwene is pretty freaking important.

 

ROTFLMAO! It's "unfair" to blame characters for how horrible they may seem? I'm sorry, but that makes no sense at all. RJ may or may not have been aware of the problems with narcissism, but he did, indeed, make Egwene a narcissist, as well as a crappy friend and a dominating witch. To suggest that I should like the character despite that - because you think RJ meant for Egwene to be likable or whatever - is silly.

The point is that you can't blame Egwene for acting the same way as every other character in the novel. Arrogance, and a bad case of "if I was in charge everything would be better" is a basic trait of like 90% of the characters in the book, including Cads, Moir, Rand, Nynaeve, Elayne, Sorilea, the windfinders, many of the nobles Rand deals with, etc. There needs to be a solid reason that Egwene is more arrogant than those characters, or else how in the heck is her arrogance worse?

Furthermore, I think it's well past time to let go of the idea that Egwene was "tortured" by Silviana. Torture is what was done to Rand by the AS - when he was locked in a tiny box and taken out only to be beaten mercilessly. Torture is what was done to Rand by Semirhage - being collared and forced to hurt someone he loves. Torture is what was done to Egwene when she was collared by the Seanchan - when they collared her and caused her pain for not obeying and tried to take away her identity and turn her into a mindless slave. But what Silviana did was SPANKING! For God's sake, she was Healed to make sure no blood was drawn and they were careful to make sure they did not BREAK her. Torture is meant to break someone...they weren't trying to break Egwene with spankings, they were merely trying to get her to stop being an obnoxious bitch. And they failed miserably!

She was beaten so badly that she required healing multiple times a day so that she would be able to walk. Maybe not torture, but it was hardly easy. Later, when Egwene was placed in a cell too small to stretch out and beaten multiple times a day was definitely torture, though.

 

And they were trying to force Egwene to bend, which isn't much different from trying to break her. They wanted to do it in a way that wasn't really considered torture, but she definitely pressed the limits of what was allowed there. And then she called Elaida a crazy bitch (paraphrasing) and in the true, subtle fashion that would make any Aes Sedai proud they tried to torture her until she was more complacent.

lilltempest, i don't mean to offend, but...you're using some serious mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that Egwene is super-narcisstic. Ascribing the most ridiculous intentions to anything she does, etc.

I'm not getting into this argument again, though I will say that I don't think Egwene is a psychopath (I'd come closer to agreeing that she's a sociopath than a psychopath, but I think it's borderline there, rather than a certainty) and that she is, undoubtedly, a narcissist. In fact, I think she suffers from Narcissist Personality Disorder, but anyway...

I think she's a tad self-centered, but Narcissist Personality Disorder works too, i guess.

 

It can be argued that what she did was not for the greater good or that, at least, that was not her primary motivation.

And, since Egwene isn't a real person and the author who wrote her is dead, this kind of argument can't be entirely refuted. But just because you can make an argument for it doesn't make it true. In this case, the text rather clearly points to the idea that Egwene did what she did because she believe it was the best for everyone, and most of the evidence that she's a massive narcissist is more of ascribing reasoning that isn't seen in the text, and less actually looking at the text itself. "Egwene is a sociopath" is, at the very least, an out-of-the-box alternative character interpretation, and not something that's really supported by the text except in the most circumspect ways.

 

Egwene was on a power trip from hell during the entire Last Battle, thinking she was the only one who mattered ("all of the Aes Sedai can die, but as long as I live, the White Tower stands!")

Did she say this? I don't remember her saying that. I think a few times she noted that she was very important to keep alive (as the leader of the largest group of channelers), which is a nice bit of pragmatism compared to Elayne or Rand's "i can do everything myself, oh shit i got captured". Without her in the lead, it would be hard for the Aes Sedai to unite on anything.

she knew what was best (be it breaking the seals, how to organize an army, etc),

On the first one, she was at least partially correct, and people seem to miss that. If the seals had been broken when Rand had wanted them to be broken, then the Dark One would have been freed too early and the Last Battle would have been lost, or at the very least the forces of the Light would have been much worse off. For the second, she denies command of the armies twice--she's well aware she is not qualified to lead armies.

and no one could possibly face her and win (I honestly wanted her to go after Demandred so he could crush her like a bug...it would've been far more fitting and a nice slap in the face to the Aes Sedai, but whatever).

I don't think she ever says that no one can face her and win...and she knows her limits (while she presses them really hard). She's constantly telling herself that no one can stand before the White Tower because they stand in the right...i suppose she does put a lot of faith in that institution, but she seemed to do that long before she was Amyrlin Seat.

 

Once again, is that incredible optimism or horrible arrogance? I think that the books very clearly point to the former--Egwene has always been painfully optimistic, and absorbs the ideals of the society she is in perfectly (except for the Seachan, of course). She does the same thing with the Aiel--accepting horrible punishment to clear her conscience after a lie (seriously, what the fuck is up with ji'e'toh?)

She was determined to find a way around balefire and did, but right before she makes the decision that ends her life, she realizes that she is burned out and has a thought that, as soon as she releases saidar, she won't channel again. I've seen it argued that, since severing can be Healed, someone who is burned out could likely be Healed as well, but I disagree. And I doubt it would've crossed Egwene's mind (we definitely didn't see her think of it) that she could be connected to the Source again. That was the moment she made her decision to die, when she realized she was burned out.

They matched one another, in stasis, for an eternal moment. In that moment, Egwene felt a peace come upon her. The pain of Gawyns death faded. He would be reborn. The Pattern would continue. The very weave she wielded calmed her anger and replaced it with peace. She reached more deeply into saidar,; that glowing comfort that had guided her so long.

This is before she died or was burned out. She accepted her death before taking in that much power, she knew that was a one way trip.

 

(she even made a reference to being "above" everyone else and the "supreme" authority when she was thinking about signing her own marriage certificate to Gawyn, which was an unnecessary action unless she was that arrogant and too stubborn to accept that anyone else had any authority in anything that involves her...and she is that arrogant).

She noted that she had to sign it because no one stood above the Amyrlin Seat. This is likely because, you know, nobody stands above the Amyrlin Seat. A few people might be argued to be equals (Empress of the Seachan, the Dragon Reborn, the M'Hael) but she is a woman to whom kings and queens bow.

 

It's not arrogance to acknowledge reality.

I don't think she could deal with that and that was why she made the decision to overdraw on the sa'angreal. The good that came of it was secondary for her, though at least (in her mind), she got to go out as the most powerful woman ever and as "impressive" as Rand, which was a big problem with her - she was always jealous of him and wanted to be more important and more powerful than him.

Or she gave her life to seal a new Bore that was forming, giving her life so that others may live...which is much, much simpler, and more in line with both her character and all the other "good" characters in the series. Occam's Razor, man.

So bottom line - she did it because she was losing everything she valued most (power and influence) so death was welcome. Any good that came out of it was just gravy.

Except there are plenty of times where Egwene does the right thing because it is right, not because it makes her more powerful, or whatever. We see this when she accepts the beatings from the Aiel to clear her name (despite the fact that she could have avoided it, or accepted far less than she did). Or when she did the same thing in the Tower, to bring down Elaida (knowing full well that what she was doing could easily end in her execution). Hell, remember her though process when she wasn't aware that she would survive the night?

The cells. Of course; she was bound for one of those small, dark rooms on the first level of the Tower’s basement. Elaida would charge her with falsely claiming to be the Amyrlin Seat. The penalty for that was death. Strangely, that brought no fear. Perhaps it was the herb working on her. Would Romanda or Lelaine give way, agreeing to raise Amyrlin after she was dead? Or would they continue to struggle with one another until the entire rebellion faltered and failed, and the sisters straggled back to Elaida? A sad thought, that. Bone-deep sad. But if she could feel sorrow, the forkroot was not quenching her emotions, so why was she not afraid?

 

...

 

If Elaida allowed her to live through the night, at least she could let Siuan know what had happened to her—and likely to Leane, as well. She could let Siuan know they had been betrayed. And pray that Siuan could track down the betrayer. Pray that the rebellion would not collapse. She offered a small prayer for that on the spot. It was much more important than the other.

Her first thought upon her execution isn't her loss of power--it's the negative effect it would have on the rebellion, and how it would fall apart and leave the Tower horribly broken and under Elaida, unprepared for the Last Battle. She really is that fearless, that willing to give herself for the world as a whole.

 

 

Egwene always tries to be 110% of what she is. That means when she's training to be a wisdom, she tries to be wise and aloof. When she's training to be an Aes Sedai, she accepts everything that comes her way, even if she does want to move faster. When she's pretending Aes Sedai in the waste, she acts aloof and wise, until she accepts the role of Wise One's apprentice, where she accepts their teaching and tries to learn ji'e'toh (see her inner monologue about not cheating when running around the camp).

 

When she is pushed into the Amyrlin Seat, she tries to represent everything that the Amyrlin Seat is supposed to be. Which is perfectly in control, the figure that kings and queens bow to, someone to be obeyed without question or hesitation. Is it arrogance to try to be what you are supposed to be? Perhaps. Is it narcissistic? Definitely not. Reading it that way is an interesting, but ultimately incorrect, reading of the character. Egwene's consistently shown a selfless attitude, and while you may argue that some of her actions are misguided it would be very difficult to say that any of them were morally incorrect.

[\quote]

It's not a backslash, it's just a normal slash, there.

 

Yes, everything you say here is the basic story line, but perhaps you and I analyze things in different ways. i am less concerned of WHAT somebody does as to WHY they do it. WoT is so deep and rich and perfect for my spinning brain. And once i saw waht motivated Egwene, I could not NOT see it any longer and every subsequent scene of hers shone with a clarifying light.

Egwene is fundamentally a character who gives 110% to anything she does--both feet off the ground. She goes to fairly obscene lengths to make good on what she sees as ideals--even blowing the Aes Sedai away with her dedication to their own ideal.

 

That's what drives her. It also blinds her to things that are not in her ideal.

I state unequivocally that Egwene does NOTHING for the greater good. Everythjng is self-referential and slef-serving. This conclusion is reached if we ignore the vicarious confusion of reading her PoV. in kther words, DON'T FEEL, THINK! Look at what she does, how she does it and truly as why she's doing ut.

She...gives her life...to kill dreadlords...at the last battle...........what the fuck do you mean she doesn't do anything for the greater good?

 

If she really and truly wanted the Tower to be reunited for the Last Battle, the most obvious and efficient option would have been this:: "Hey, everybody! Look, I know you all-- I mean all of us-- are rebels, but if we really want the Tower to reunite, then maybe we should go back to Elaida. No, don't freak out!! i mean, the White Tower needs to be whole because the Last Battle is coming: we've had 6,000 pages sayin it, so maybe we should grit our teeth and take what comes. you know, for the greater good of mankind....." Egwene of course doesnt take this route, citing the pure partisanship ans self-preservatikn. No sacrifice for the greater good, there.....

 

....Don't laugh or sneer at this suggestion: it was a completely viable option, especially because Egwene brought the tower down from the inside, so a full and immediate reunification could have bypassed 4 full novels. But she got honey in her tea, which sounds kind of dirty, but it's not.....

Elaida is also, you know, insane. Beyond how ridiculously hard it would be to get the Salidar Aes Sedai to give in to Elaida, or even to get Elaida to accept them back, it wouldn't have solved any problems. Elaida would have completely shattered the tower from within due to influences from the Black Ajah, and even if she didn't, she would have driven Rand away and doomed everyone.

Because this is a work of fiction, of course, we are in favor of Egwene's rule, but beyond emotional favoritism, let's ask this: WHY WAS EGWENE'S LEADERSHIP SO PRAISE-WORTHY? Separating out how we feel about what she did with what she actually did exposes that she manipulated Salidar with the same ruthless efficiency that Elaida/Alviarin did. In fact, Egwene's entire tenure as Amrylin is rife with political intrigue, the constant breaking or bending of rules, coercion, intimidation, subterfuge, the illegal swearing of oaths, deceptions, partial truths, circumventing the rules, sidestepping the Three Oaths, espionage, attaining goals through force of will, blackmail, taking advantage of Tower Law to either gain advantage or neutrelize a rival, publicly condemning the splintering of the Ajah while taking full advantage of the weakness, deception, dishonesty, dissension and discord, continue the dissemination of the Logain Lie knowing full well is was ficticious and devicive. a wedge, and although I might have missed another dozen smaller examples, we must NEVER forget that she knowingly sheltered one of the Forsaken for the sole purpose of gleaning knowledge of the AoL, because, well: f**k time-honored laws and basic morality!

She was politicking in order to get the Salidar Aes Sedai off their asses and moving in the right direction. It is better for her to get her hands dirty doing the right thing than sitting on her ass and maintaining the moral high ground. Have you seen Lincoln?

Really, besides our emotional investment in the story, you gotta ask WHY the Salidar faction is any better the Elaida, because almost identical machinations take place....

Well to start, they never shoved Rand into a box and tried to beat him into submission.

This is an extremely important point because as we can see in the last few books, Egwene doesn't institute systemic reforms,

She's, uh, kinda busy. She gets some reforms rolling, but she gets caught up in that pesky "Tarmon Gai'don".

and here we are in the Last Battle and Accepted are safely tucked away, because tradition dictates that they not be part of the fighting.

Also because they are inexperienced and young and needed for the next generation. I'm pretty sure the Wise One/Windfinder apprentices were also tucked away. Only the Asha'man seem to be going all-in with their reserves because they're still getting the hang of this human decency thing.

 

By the way, they weren't just sitting on the sidelines, they were supporting the healers in Mayene, and were being worked to exhaustion like everyone else. They just weren't getting their heads blown off because they didn't recognize a weave.

She doesn't answer the basic question about what the Aes Sedai role in the world actually should//could be.

The same it has always been or always tried to be, a warden to keep the world together and united, and a place of learning and unity for channelers and the world. She knows that they can no longer try to bully people onto the right path, but they can still serve the same role in the world.

Instead it is more of the same..... And in the last, she doesn't, not once, ask: "How can the White Tower help?"

Haha, what?

Sure, she did a lot of fresh stuff, and the given reforms are refreshing, but in no way was she a Great Reformer......

She got the ball rolling on a lot of things, but she simply didn't have the time to do what she wanted to do.

the Tower continues to manipulate, coerce, intimidate and expect everyone to bend the knee without demonstrating WHY they deserve it.....

The Tower tried to manipulate people in the right direction, and everyone still seems to hold it against them...you realize that 95% what an Aes Sedai wants is merely what she sees as what is necessary for the greater good? And that 9 out of 10 times they are right? They've been doing a lot of things by bullying--like stopping wars, preventing the rise of rival channeler factions, keeping dangerous angreal out of the way of commoners (and into a place they can research it), making sure that those they find that can channel will do so safely, etc. etc. Their methods may not be the best, but their goals are almost always good.

Egwene didn't undertake the Salidar mandate out of benevolence, nor did she merely see a great task that needed doing and begin the work. Something about her internal architecture compelled her to do it. Her competitiveness. Her undiluted sense of importance. The excitement at playing the Game of Thrones (is that reference okay, here?). She was attracted to the task because she could freely exercise her subconscious nature: to dominate, like every other Aes Sedai we have seen. She was simply better than all of them..... RIP, Egwene al'Vere. I'll miss you.....

She didn't choose to be Amyrlin Seat, but once she was she strove to be everything an Amyrlin Seat should be...which is entirely consistent with her character, and Mat even perfectly predicts her reaction (while, in true WoT fashion, completely underestimating her competence). She might get some thrill from being in a leadership position, but ultimately what drives her isn't the power. Look at her actions in KoD/TGS for proof of that--even when all of her power is stripped of her, she doesn't jump at the chance go get it back (by escape), she suffers through it because ultimately that's what she needs to do. And don't tell me that she still felt powerful in that situation--she was getting beaten to a pulp multiple times a day, there's no way she was getting off on the thrill to "dominate" there.

Faile non-chalantly thinking one sentence about her father being a DF and betraying the light was another odd one. Something like that would certainly have loomed much larger on her mind.

Wait, what is this?

 

 

Plus the mystery scepter probably had a buffer, which Vora's wand didn't, so you have Egwene's already massive capacity + an unlimited draw. 

That mace was suppose to be just a little less powerful then the statue Rand melted. 

 

 

 

The Cholean Kal? I think it's the second most powerful sa'angreal beside the Cholan Kal, but i'm pretty sure they are on completely different levels. The CK had enough power to drill through the pattern itself.

 

I've always had the belief that Power levels were exponential in growth. Egwene and Elayne are some of the strongest in the tower, but they note time and time again that they are nowhere close to Nynaeve--not just weaker by a few steps, but to the point where adding their power to Nynaeve's is negligible.

Egwene could have used a little bit of help from Sorilea and Cadsuane in the "I have to be so TOUGH for people to respect me!" department. You would have thought her training with the Wise Ones would have kept her from being an Aes Sedai Ice Queen, but apparently she just ditched that perspective because it didn't suit her.

???

 

The Wise Ones act almost exactly the same as the Aes Sedai, in this regard (as in most). It's lampshaded pretty often (every time the Wise Ones give advice to Rand on dealing with Aes Sedai). Beyond that, it's pretty clear that Egwene's given herself to the Amyrlin Seat and Tar Valon far more than to the Wise Ones.

 

And if you want people to respect you as a leader, you need to be tough...it can be done with less power and more finesse, but it's not wrong to try to be tough to get respect.

Speaking of Gawyn's rings............when the blood assassins got them, wasn't it implied if not fully stated that they'd have at most a few hours to live?  Where as we see Gawyn used them several times.  He even said he's practiced with them!!

The bloodknives were active in Tar Valon for several weeks. It doesn't kill all that quickly.

I don't understand why there has to be a lack of a buffer--i though a buffer was to prevent the aftereffects of drawing as much power as the angreal allows you. Since an angreal doesn't limit how much power you can draw, shouldn't you still be able to overdraw power, just by going over the amount that the buffer safely provides for?

 

To use an analogy to an actual buffer in chemistry, the buffer will allow you to use a lot of acids without decreasing the pH. With enough acid, however, you will eventually drop the pH of the solution.

Well, was just thinking. She was raw with grief and drawing as much as possible. Without a buffer shouldn't we have gotten some hint then of what could go wrong?

It's entirely reasonable to assume that Egwene could have enough self-control to not intentionally overdraw herself, even when consumed with grief, especially considering she had to make a conscientious effort to overdraw herself later. It's hardly the least likely thing in the WoT universe.

all agree to dislike Lelaine? at the moment I'm not seeing any redeeming feature.

She didn't want to leave the fate of the most powerful institution of the world in the hands of a 19-year-old during the end times? That seems like a pretty fine motivation, if misguided.

 

I like a lot of the people. Moiraine. Thom. Lan. Master Gill. Gaul. Tam. Elyas. Hopper. Birgitte. I think these are all mutually liked. Can't forget Balwer, Sulin, Rodel, Silviana, and Gareth Bryne too. Noal, Talmanes, Rhuarc too. I think the list of liked characters is shorter than those everyone hates.

Silviana? I can't really see that. She may have been a great Mistress of Novices to the Novices, but she was central in administering a lot of Elaida's unjust punishments. Beating Alviarin every morning (indefinitely), breaking Shemerin (the demoted Aes Sedai), trying to break Egwene. While she was doing it by command of the Amyrlin, she really should have taken a stand against it or something.

Do Angreal and Sa'angreal increase your ability to reach the source or does it only help in letting you take in more of it?

 

What I mean is: If Rand was shielded then managed to grab Calandor, would he be able to burst through the shield easily or does it only work if he's able to touch the source in the first place?

I believe it would be the latter. Rand has the Choedan Kal when he is shielded by the Aes Sedai, and it doesn't seem to help. The shield is a buffer between the channeler and the OP, and i don't believe it would be possible to activate an angreal without the OP.

She certainly wasn't siding with Mat when she was travelling with him and Tuon was there. You'd think she would hate someone who leashes channellers and forced her into exile, but no.

 

Besides, the scene where she meets Elayne and Nynaeve really annoys me because it's so contrived. Setalle is 100% convinced they can't really be Aes Sedai, to the extend that she gives away the Kin's secret, just because Elayne looks 18. Since before her and Egwene have been cases of 22-23 years being made Aes Sedai, this is really silly. Who can differentiate between those ages with such precision and take such a big risk aaonly because of this? And she really didn't have to be so dismissive and mean towards Elayne and Nynaeve.

I assumed that was just Mat being Ta'veren. They started working with Mat, so they started getting what they needed.

I don't like Aveindha.

 

I think most people would say they liked the "good guy" Asha'man. Flinn, Narishma, Grady, etc.

Sigh, does Sammael at least put up a decent fight? :( He's meant to be a good general

 

 

 

Edit: I thought this was a "Spoilers to ToM" forum?

Not sure what you mean?

Isn't the phrase "Bound for all time" not "Bound by time"?

He can't resurrect people that died by balefire because he can't go into the past to get them back. He is bound by the turning of the wheel.