barid,

 

the issue here is you dont build up a character so much give them so much achievements only to die off in the end. Rand the male half of egwene himself made it out alive

 

Then you have no funerals for her. Just a glancing remark by nynaeve of egwene's death and perrin tearing up.

 

 

after all she has done what did she gain? lost her warder in a brutal fashion and died in a middle of nowhere.

She sacrificed everything and she got nothing in the end. Even rand got peace and annoynimity to live his life in peace for the rest of his days.

 

reeks of last minute dot com death. It looked like maria and co thought we need to get rid of a major character.

 

Rand obviously no

Mat outrriger

perrin outrigger

nynaeve tied to lan and malkier.

 

that left egwene as the sole remaining member of the the five.

Hating the actual development is one thing, but concluding that it must have been not only added in, but actually covered up (because again, the entire epilogue was said to be written by Jordan) is ridiculous.  It's that incredibly annoying "if I liked it, it was obviously Jordan, if I didn't like it, than it was Brandon and Harriet" mentality that pervades some of WOT fandom. 

I highly doubt either one of them felt so strongly about killing Egwene that they just couldn't resist adding it in and editing the epilogue to reflect it, and subsequently lying about it.

It makes sense given that Jordan obviously likes Cadsuane; I'm not convinced Brandon would have chosen to make Cadsuane Amyrlin if it was up to him.  Besides, something about that Cadsuane POV just made it obvious that Jordan wrote it.  I'll admit it left a bad taste on my mouth at first, since it felt like the purpose was to sweep Egwene aside so the bestest Aes Sedai evar could take over, though I think it's meant to be seen more as a punishment for Cadsuane.  One fairly subtle thing I liked was that, for the first time, Cadsuane cursed upon hearing the suggestion. 

In universe, I have to wonder a bit at the decision to make Cadsuane Amyrlin, since she shouldn't live very much longer... I suppose she could force most of the Aes Sedai to cooperate in her time, though.  I imagine she'll mostly stick with Egwene's changes, and her role in history will be that of a transistory leader, one that keeps them afloat and enforces new policies.  I don't know how diplomatic relations between her and Logain will go though.  Didn't she have a hand in capturing him?  That's not going to be pretty.

 

 

 

duskfire, would u say egwene's death was a violent one? would u say gawyn caused her death when it is plainly obvious it was the balefire mayhem from taim? we got no viewinga from min on eggy's death and possibilities of her death didnt match her battlefield death at all. Egwene's death to me looked like it was a sanderson/harriet planned death rather than RJ

 

That's not possible, since the entire epilogue was written by Robert Jordan, and Egwene's death is clearly mentioned in that.

RJ also tried to downplay callandors important defect by claiming it was a manufacturing flaw.

 

authors tell fibs. RJ may have wrote the epilogue but insertions and additions can be done

Assuming this is reliable, all of the epilogue was written by Jordan.  It either is, or they flat out lied.  Personally, I think the accusation reaks of conspiracy theory.  If Egwene survived to the end, I'm sure Jordan would have written a final scene for her, like he did for all of the other main characters.  There's no way they would have chosen to throw it out just so they could kill a main character.

duskfire, would u say egwene's death was a violent one? would u say gawyn caused her death when it is plainly obvious it was the balefire mayhem from taim? we got no viewinga from min on eggy's death and possibilities of her death didnt match her battlefield death at all. Egwene's death to me looked like it was a sanderson/harriet planned death rather than RJ

That's not possible, since the entire epilogue was written by Robert Jordan, and Egwene's death is clearly mentioned in that.

Just thought... anyone think it might be possible for Egwene to manifest herself in Tel'aran'rhiod, similar to Birgritte and other Heroes of the Horn?  I think it would fit well with her Dreamer status, and it might be fitting for future Amyrlin's to be able to communicate with her for advice. 

I enjoyed the "Battle on Four Fronts" conceit, and really liked the manner in which command of the armies was handed to Mat (it was going to happen).  A particular highlight of this sub-plot was Ituralde's POV.  The way in which we see his mind is subtly being raped was quite creepy in execution.

Egwene acted like an idiot with Rand and Tuon. Also, no reunion with her and her family? I would have loved to see that. There were hardly words between her and anyone.

 

How did Egwene know to watch for the light? That bugged me.

 

I didn't like the crystals and cracks at all. It doesn't seem intuitive that the blackness beyond the pattern would actually show as the pattern unravelled. Also, why was there so much blackness in the ground as compared to the air*? A few tendrils of blackness moved out of the cracks in the ground, but why did they need to originate there? There's nothing special about the ground.

The anti-balefire weave (and Egwene coming up with it) seems plausible to me, for many of the reasons already mentioned, but why couldn't the cracks just close? Is it because the opposite of burning something is freezing that something**, thus the ice-like crystals? She did call it the flame of Tar Valon, though. If a thread is balefired, I'd think anti-balefire would gather up all the little particles of the burned thread (the motes) and place them back together, despite the fact that it's pretty much impossible to do this in the real world when something burns. Since burning is generally regarded as irreversible, though, I can live with anti-balefire putting something else in a thread's place with the same shape, but I still don't see why it'd have to show physically, and as a crystal specifically. It could just be realized as the blackness leaving the cracks and the Sharans dropping dead.

Also, her weave having a greater effect on people who had turned to the shadow is ridiculous; a weave like that shouldn't be so unbalanced.

 

 

 

 

 

* I know a crack in the air doesn't seem to make sense (what would it look like from the side?), but that's because we're used to cracks in surfaces, which are 2D. The cracks in the air would have to be 3D, which is impossible to visualize. As a matter of fact, the ground cracks, and all other cracks in the pattern itself, would have to be 3D as well, since the pattern is 3-dimensional.

** I know that combustion involves the oxidization of a fuel along with the expulsion of energy, so its true opposite isn't very clear; let's not get too scientific about it. Burning something makes it hot, freezing something makes it cold, so that's that. They're opposites.

I definitely feel Egwene came off as somewhat petty with Rand, but I actually feel she got the better of Tuon by a wide margin.  I've even seen some say that Tuon was shortchanged a bit.  I dislike Tuon, so I'm not the best judge on that. 

If that's at all true, I can't say I agree with the idea.  From a storytelling standpoint, the "redemption equals death" trope only tends to work well with minor characters, or perhaps second tier characters.  To make a main character intentionally unlikable, only to kill her in the end in an effort to redeem her, doesn't sound particularly logical.  You want the reader to feel sorrow for the only true main character death of the series.  I think you're right in the sense that Jordan originally set Egwene up as annoying, but I definitely feel we were meant to like her around the time she became Amyrlin.  That was more successful on some than others... personally, I was on board the Pro-Egwene train by KOD. 

On that logic, it seems like he would be aiming for Elayne, as she's usually much less likable than Egwene, at least as far as I'm concerned. 

Honestly, Egwene, along with Perrin, was actually a character I found I liked more with the author change, but I suspect this has more to do with Robert Jordan than it might appear.  Egwene changed character (or, err, "rapidly developed") quite quickly in KOD. 

 

Egwene is the absolute worst character they could have chosen to kill off. We spent so much time watching her train to become an Aes Sedai, a Wise One, rise to power as the youngest Amyrlin ever, settle the division in the White Tower, initiate a number of much-needed reforms, eradicate the Black Ajah, confront the Seanchan empress, was promised to be the longest-reigning and most powerful Amyrlin in history - and she's the only one who is first deprived of her loved one, and then of her life? Was this really a way of saying "even the most May Suish character can die in this series"? Even Rand got to remain alive, by predictably taking over Moridin's body. Nobody else out of the first and second-tier characters died, so what gives? I just don't see what Egwene's death was supposed to accomplish, especially considering that her replacement Cadsuane will likely die of old age very soon. It's the least of the problems that this awful, awful volume suffers from, but it is the most baffling one. Feels like it was picked completely at random, or based on fan hatred.

someone give this man a medal

 

perhaps we should ask our resident wise one terez to chase this issue with brandon and co.

 

there is no foreshadowing of egwene's death at all in this series. not even once.

 

even moridin/rand body swap was hinted by min in book 7!!

Actually, I'm almost positive that it was foreshadowed in one of Min's viewings.  I don't remember exactly- I've read the books over the past few months- but I do remember a scene where Egwene is walking among pillars of glass, and Min see's "an explosion of light" from Egwene, or something similar. 

I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure on that one.

I have mixed feelings on Egwene's death. 

On the positive side, it was beautifully written (at least, her 'conversation' with Rand was).  Egwene was annoying at times, but she was fantastic in KOD and in Sanderson's books (it was a total character change, but it was for the better, in my personal opinion).  It's going to be so strange rereading the series, knowing that Rand is not the one to die at the Last Battle (well, not entirely), but Egwene. 

On the other, I was convinced Egwene was going to be an integral leader following The Last Battle.  Considering she freed Logain, he might trust her enough to work with her, so that the White and Black towers can coexist peacefully.  That trust would likely lead to Egwene sending Nynaeve to heal the mens madness (though that may have happened anyway). 

I'm... not convinced Cadsuane will be a good Amyrlin.  She's uncompromising and, whether she knows it or not, a good leader, but a diplomat she is not.  If I had to guess, I'd say her role in history is to enforce the changes that Egwene set down.  She likely won't hold the position for very long, considering her age.  I imagine she'll be remembered as a transitory Amyrlin.  Who knows who will take over after Cadsuane passes: perhaps Bode? 

One thing I'm very interested to hear from others: was it thematically appropriate for Egwene to die, in your opinion?  Will relations with the Seanchan and Black Tower suffer without her?  Looking back on the series (this I cannot do, as this is my first read of the Wheel of Time), does it feel "right" that Egwene is only one of the six (arguably) main characters to die?  As I said, I'm completely split on it.  It worked wonderfully in the sense that it was a shock; by the time Egwene died, I was convinced that Rand was going to do something that would bring back all those who died in the Last Battle, because RJ had been so reluctant to kill characters up to that point. 

Part of me wants to say I wish Elayne had died instead, but I don't really, because I liked Elayne so much less than Egwene, it would have hit me so much less. 

As of now, I'm on book 8, and the only time I've really found myself annoyed with Egwene was in book 5. She was quite condescending in that one, and now that she's Amyrlin you would think she would realize she was being a bit judgmental... nope, of course not. Perrin is the only character who ever seems to acknowledge his flaws, and he acknowledges flaws he doesn't have thanks to Faile

She's becoming much more interesting to follow, though.

Thanks, all I needed. Didn't want to have saidin users to have another advantage Though saidar users have that handy ability to link, and can make longer air bridges.

I haven't read New Spring, but I fully intend to. I'm thinking either after Crossroads of Twilight (publication order) or Knife of Dreams (since I hear that's sort of the second half to COT, and that COT is... unsatisfying... on its own). Do you have any preference?

Actually, a question just occurred to me. I always assumed the answer, but I only now realize that I don't believe it's been mentioned. For reference, I have just started A Path of Daggers.

We know when men grasp saidin, they experienced heightened senses; does the same old true for saidar users? I don't recall any reference to a woman having better hearing, or sense of smell in saidar, yet Robert Jordan mentions it quite frequently in Rand's POV. The only benefit I recall of a woman embracing saidar is intense joy, which is presented as much a weakness as a benefit.