That's how fate works, Rand's whole life was foreseen and Foretold 3000 years ago. I don't see how that has anything to do with ta'veren.

And by the way, you want to see a ta'veren die? Mat did die at the end of tFoH. Balefire burns a thread from the Pattern so ta'veren has nothing to do with his resurrection.

Don't get me started on Couladin... (grumbles) best Aiel in the whole story and he gets killed off off-screen. What tripe

Well, you wanted an example. One of the greatest warriors of the greatest warrior people in the world, and Mat killed him with his skill alone. It should be enough to prove that they don't always get lucky.

And that's why I think a Ta'veren character dying would help in this case. to establish that Ta'veren can be killed permanently, and enforce some rules. Right now, all of the life or death situations I see are kinda tensionless cuz I'm thinking, "How will REALITY bend to save him this time?" not "how will HE save himself this time?"

 

Look at FOH as an example. Rand didn't accomplish anything in that himself. Rahvin would've won if Nynaeve hadn't COINCIDENTALLY been there. It's not an accomplishment of the character, and it felt like Rahvin was screwed over. He didn't lose because he was bested. He lost because reality contrived to kill him.

If we are going to take tFoH as an example, Mat killed Couladin by his skill with ashandarei alone and he desperately wanted to avoid that fight. It's not always ta'veren.

Okay, I can buy that, then if you were a Chosen, how do you go about fighting someone who could fire an arrow randomly and just so happen to hit something important? Or could suddenly make you lose the grip on your sword as you're fighting him. Or who could lead to someone coincidentally stumbling across you and helping him.

Shield him, bind him with Air, then throw a giant fireball at him. And bye-bye Dragon Reborn.

You're exaggerating in my opinion. Fain would've killed Rand just fine, if Cadsuane were a few moments late.

No! Usually the story doesn't outright tell me that reality is bending to help the heroes. If you're going to introduce this element then you need to establish the rules

Does it matter? You know that Frodo is not going to die, because LotR is just not the same without him, isn't it?

 

Okay, let me put it this way. Ta'veren are very lucky. If an assassin is trying to kill Rand with bow and arrow, a lot can go wrong. Something may distract the assassin, he can miss, Rand can move at the right time etc. But if Ishamael corners and overpowers Rand, or Slayer just appears at his back and plants a knife through his heart, he is dead. He is not immortal but he is luckier than most men so harder to kill.

 

It is different, actually. When I'm reading a story, I can lose myself in the world. I can ignore the narrative devices being employed in the story's structure because no one brings attention to them.

 

In WOT, even if I do lose myself in the story, those narrative devices are IN THE ACTUAL DIAGETIC WORLD. I can't ignore the fact that coincidences always seem to happen around the main characters because the story keeps pointing it out.

Well, I can understand that. The point remains though, that ta'veren is one of the most important aspects of the series. The enemy is much stronger, and the allies are bad enough the characters don't really need enemies. Ta'veren is the edge they have.

You're at LoC as I understand. Just read on. The heroes get enough near-death situations.

No! Usually the story doesn't outright tell me that reality is bending to help the heroes. If you're going to introduce this element then you need to establish the rules

Does it matter? You know that Frodo is not going to die, because LotR is just not the same without him, isn't it?

Okay, let me put it this way. Ta'veren are very lucky. If an assassin is trying to kill Rand with bow and arrow, a lot can go wrong. Something may distract the assassin, he can miss, Rand can move at the right time etc. But if Ishamael corners and overpowers Rand, or Slayer just appears at his back and plants a knife through his heart, he is dead. He is not immortal but he is luckier than most men so harder to kill.

Why are you talking like main characters dying left and right is the norm in fiction? If Jack Bauer managed to survive eight seasons of 24, anything is possible. I assume you are looking for another ASoIF, well good luck. That is very rare, especially in fantasy.

Was LTT ta'veren?

 

EWoT Loial

That first bending to make the Web, that is ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes. The Web – ta'maral'ailen, it's called – can last for weeks, or for years. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern. Artur Hawkwing was ta'veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter, I suppose."

Thanks.

Okay, what does being Ta'veren entail exactly? As in what's the point of them? If the pattern controls people's lives, and Ta'veren follow the pattern's will... then why bother having them at all?

They are likely the Wheel's self-correcting mechanism.

It really feels like Ta'veren are invincibe. I know I keep being told that they aren't. but I see know reason to believe those people.

Well, this is not a GRRM series where the most important character gets his head chopped off before even the first book is finished. Our main characters get themselves in dangerous situations all the time but come out alive. Ta'veren are not invincible but still harder to kill than others. Remember they just happen to move right before arrows are about to hit them, or Trollocs fall on their swords or such. That's due to ta'veren altering chance. It seems coincidence, but that's how ta'veren works. You might call ta'veren RJ's plot machine.

As for reason to believe, I think the best is in TSR:

The man cut him off and spoke hurriedly. “You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled. Now, go. You must go! Quickly!”

This is Aelfinn's answer to Mat asking why he should go to Rhuidean. There is all sorts of prophecies about Mat, and Pattern is forcing Mat to stay near Rand but the Aelfinn's answer says he is able to go another way, however hard, but it'll result in his death.

Was LTT ta'veren? I know the LTT in Rand's head says 'I am ta'veren' but he talks about Emond's Field, too. And I don't remember it mentioned anywhere else.

Just the one that created the link between Moridin and Rand in ACoS as far as I can remember. The best insight we have into TP is gateways IMO. With saidar a channeler creates a similarity of two points in the Pattern, with saidin he folds the Pattern and drills a bore through it. But with TP, Moridin rips apart the Pattern to create a hole. The end result is the same: a gateway, but the method and consequences of it are different. So by all evidence yoniy0 is right, a balefire is a balefire and should do the same job no matter how it's created. But we don't know what side-effects, if there is any, it can cause.

“How about that, Noal,” Thom said. “Looks like he can roll a one after all.”

We don't see Moridin after that. All the scenes involving him in ToM are pre-VoG in the timeline. So we don't know. Though, Rand's link with Moridin is more similar to that with Mat and Perrin except Rand describes it as being "more real" as if he could almost touch Moridin and vice versa. So likely no sunshine around Moridin.

But we have seen Moridin's personality affect Rand more and more as the series progressed because of the link and there are physical effects like Rand's phantom hand. It seems to have only physical effects on Moridin so far like Rand's weariness passing to him and Moridin feeling Rand's pains. Other than that, Moridin seems to stay his cold, emotionless self.

One possibility is that that effect may be reversed and we see some "Rand" in Moridin. Or maybe they are now shielded from each other or maybe just Rand from Moridin. We'll have to wait and see.

I have ignored all aMoL material in this post but the question might be better suited for the aMoL forum.

It's appaling to AS because they are arrogant brats with self-inflated opinions of themselves who see themselves superior to everybody else. When they were bonded or sworn to Rand, that misguided belief went bye-bye. These are the people who preferred to be blamed for the genocide of Malkieri instead of admitting they are human-beings just like everybody else. They want to keep that appearance desperately because it is the foundation of their power. So when somebody proved they are not infallible, they got outraged.

Go here for more.

He'd do well as a king. One of the few Cairhienin nobles that can be described as a decent person we've seen so far. I'm also wondering why Min thinks he's important, the whole "lose Bashere, Logain, Dobraine and it'll take a year to get back on your feet thing". I get Logain and Bashere but not him.

Does anyone have a theory as to what Dobraine has been doing? Last we see him is in TGS when Rand returns from Bandar Eban and in ToM it's mentioned he hasn't returned to Cairhien. It seems weird he has been in Tear the whole time where Rand doesn't really need him and not in his homeland where he has the power to affect things and help Elayne secure the Sun Throne.

A few possibilities:

• Gitara may have Foretold it.
  
• Elayne, Dyelin, Amys all think Rand looks a lot like Tigraine. Egwene (and Perrin?) thinks he looks like Luc.
  
• Luc killed Janduin. He may have learned Rand was born on the slope of Dragonmount and made the connection from the Karaethon Cycle.
  

Yes, after this Rand sends Logain to BT. But either he disobeys or is captured, he simply vanishes. My personal opinion, he is somewhere organizing the Asha'man outside the BT to take Taim down.

 

Actually, I don't think Rand sent him any where after this.

I guess I shouldn't have said it as a certain thing. This was my inclination from the way Rand thinks Logain is at BT at ToM. I'm referring to the scene before the meeting with Borderlanders when he sends Naeff to the BT. The "tell Logain and his men we're not weapons" business.

I don't think the question was about the "vileness". I think he was asking about the significance of number 2000.

 

My personal opinion, it was only a figure of speech. It's a stretch but maybe like outing of that secret would be as dangerous to the WT as having 2000 Asha'man in BT. Alternatively, it could be something about BA, but I have a hard time believing cool, controlled Alviarin would blabber the secrets of BA in front of Elaida. IIRC, Black Ajah is 2000 years old.

 

Alviarin might be cool but she also has some bravado and a sense of superiority to her.

Slipping in the number 2000 to a person she considers too ignorant and too dense to take note of it like Elaida is something I could definitly see her doing.

 

In New Spring, in just the short time that book spans, we heard of how many lucky men and boys being killed? 3 I believe and attempt on Lan.

Then in the Epilogue, when Siuan figures out that the Black Ajah knows that the Dragon has been reborn but not when, she not only estimates thousands, she says tens of thousands and remember, this went on for almost 4 years before Ishamael put a stop to it.

We know the BA was very active during this time as well due to the fact that they went around and killed every sister that Tamra Ospenya had confided in and sent looking for the DR.

I don't know. We can only speculate.

Hopefully this is the place to ask this - where was the last place we actually saw Logain? I can't remember and I don't want to reread just for that...

 

Right after the capture of Semirhage is the last time we ACTUALLY saw Logain.

Yes, after this Rand sends Logain to BT. But either he disobeys or is captured, he simply vanishes. My personal opinion, he is somewhere organizing the Asha'man outside the BT to take Taim down.

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/military-forces-of-westlands.html

This is as good a source as there is on military strength.

I can't think what either, but in context with the story - it has to do with either the outcome of one of Elaidas schemes, the capture of Rand, or the BT, or something else, the way she was rasied, or something directly tied in to the above. Or maybe it does have something to do with the BA - it doesn't mean Alviarin has mis-spoken, after all she has access to secret records now as well - isn't it directly after this that Elaida sets up the BA hunters? Could be because of the 2000 reference, or because she already hates Alviarin that much?

Did Elaida set Seaine up to hunt the BA? I don't think so. She was very vague. Likely she was paranoid about Alviarin secretly working with rebels or trying to usurp her place as Amyrlin or Elaida just wanted dirt on Alviarin she could use.

Well if the Black Ajah is 2000 years old that could be it, however why would Alviarin say that? Elaida is not black so she would not even understand the reference, and it to seam to me like she understand what Alviarin is talking about.

She may have let it slip, I suppose. But like I said that's very unlikely for Alviarin.

I don't think 2000 has anything to do with gentled male channelers. It is just a dangerous number signifying some other thing. But for the love of Light, I can't think of what.

I don't think the question was about the "vileness". I think he was asking about the significance of number 2000.

My personal opinion, it was only a figure of speech. It's a stretch but maybe like outing of that secret would be as dangerous to the WT as having 2000 Asha'man in BT. Alternatively, it could be something about BA, but I have a hard time believing cool, controlled Alviarin would blabber the secrets of BA in front of Elaida. IIRC, Black Ajah is 2000 years old.

AFAIK there is no definitive answer to it in the interview database, someone correct me if I'm wrong. What we know for certain is ability to channel or being a wolfbrother is tied to the soul. Perrin will always be reborn as a wolfbrother in an Age where wolfbrothers exist and Egwene will always be reborn as a channeler where channelers exist.

 

There is in fact an answer. The ability to channel at least, is a matter of both soul and genetics.

INTERVIEW: Oct 2nd, 2005

Robert Jordan's Blog: ONE MORE TIME

 

 

ROBERT JORDAN

For Papazen, while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also.

Thanks. This is interesting. It's like the Wheel tends to force the channeler souls be reborn from channeler bloodlines.

We know channeling run in bloodlines, if a channeler have a child it is a bigger chance that child will be a channeler or that their children will be, but what about other abilities, if you have a sniffer is there a bigger chance a sniffer's children will inherit the ability? What about wolf brothers do that run in family lines?

That's a popular assumption by the characters in the books but it's by no means certain. There is evidence. Like Rand's children from Aviendha, Morgase-Elayne, Ayyad in Shara, Emarin-Algarin (there is mention of the family's male ancestors having an unnamed problem, most likely it's channeling) , or from AMoL Prologue:

AFAIK there is no definitive answer to it in the interview database, someone correct me if I'm wrong. What we know for certain is ability to channel or being a wolfbrother is tied to the soul. Perrin will always be reborn as a wolfbrother in an Age where wolfbrothers exist and Egwene will always be reborn as a channeler where channelers exist.

Also can a woman be a sniffer?

Most likely. But we have only seen one sniffer, so I don't know. There can be wolfsisters though.

It's a bit off-topic but I've been wondering something for some time. Maybe someone knows the answer to it.

How similar are the 2nd and 3rd Ages in the current cycle to the ones in the previous cycle? Is the Second Age always a utopia in each cycle while the Third is marked with strife? Does the 2nd Age always end with a Breaking and the flawed sealing of the Bore? I know there are levels of victory in the war between Light and Shadow but is it always roughly the same in the same age of different cycles?

I very much doubt they can be killed, they are essentially souls waiting for the Wheel to spin them out, and souls cannot be destroyed. I believe that's the case in TAR as well as when they are called by the Horn. For some reason or the other the Heroes were chosen by the Wheel and I don't think they can lose their status as Heroes of the Horn until the Wheel is done with them. That means I believe even if Elayne hadn't saved Birgitte, she would just go back to TAR once she died. I believe Moghedien could not fulfill her promise to Birgitte about separating her from Gaidal forever.

That said, they are not gods. Remember their victory was tied to how Rand did against Ishamael. When Ishamael pushed Rand back, they were pushed back as well and vice versa. They can be defeated, just not directly.

All of this is my personal thoughts of course.