It's in ACoS35:

 

"What good to tell him (Rand) he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?"

 

AFAIK it's not confirmed that she means Moiraine; in fact Moiraine isn't even in her thoughts at that point. Nor is any other woman, though.

In the next chapter she's thinking about Moiraine and the only viewing she had that failed.(when she meets Caraline Damodred)

I though that she saw that Rand needs Moiraine to win the LB, but since she's dead and gone(from her pov), the viewing was wrong.

Since the quotes are just several pages apart, I thought they were connected. I'm not sure about it though, but I think she was talking about Moiraine.

The Black Ajah was trying to kill (or gentle) any man who could possibly be the Dragon Reborn. This starts right after the Aiel War, and you can bet that Galina was heavily involved.

Yes, I guess any BA sister that was also Red was extra vigilant while looking for male channelers, but many of the killings involved lucky men, of various ages.

In the talk Elaida had with Alviarin, she said that they gentled 20 men in the last 20 years, although the number showed in the open records is smaller. And I don't think any sister hid the fact that she gentled a man that could channel, and loose the chance to win some Ajah points, even if she was an undercover BA.

On the other hand, in NS, we have a guy killed with all his kinds in a stable, a blacksmith, Lan, a prince and his son, all killed(Lan survived) in a matter of days, in a small area of Randland.

I think the number of lucky men killed in all of Randland in those years is a lot larger than the gentled men. And since Cadsuane was in the area at that time(probably hunting for the BA...in NS), she knew about the vile thing(the lucky men were killed with OP), and was referring to the strange deaths, not the gentlings.

And since Annoura is not Red, she shouldn't be asked about the secret gentlings knew mostly by the Reds or the Sitters.

Or maybe both are mentioned in that sentence, who knows?. I can't be sure either way, but I'll put my money on the strange killings+AS deaths, if I have to choose.

So, why was there mass unlawful gentling of men by the Reds anyway?

Because that's what they do?!?

From a Red's perspective, and any other AS for that matter, they did the right thing.

Any man that can channel has to be gentled. But what they did with Owyn, gentling him on the spot, and making everybody in his village aware of the fact he was a male channeler(DF in their eyes) was a bad thing.

They could have at least make a male channeler protection program or or something like that, so they can live the remaining of their life safe. Pointing them out as DF in the middle of a mob and leave is not right.

 

The gentlings and killing of lucky men were both part of "the vileness". Thoms nephew was one of those gentled...

They may both be vile, but they are unrelated. The sisters that gentled Owin overstepped their authority, but they were just Red, not BA. And Elaida might have been one of those sisters.

The death of the Amyrln, the death of every member of the search party, and the 'guess the DR' game(lucky men) is only related to BA, and those happened right after the Aiel War, just as Cadsuane phrased her question.

The unlawful gentling are mostly related to the Red Ajah. Annoura is Gray. I don't think every Ajah started gentling people after the Aiel War.

We know that Cadsuane was hunting the BA at one time, and that there is a BA signal with the thumbs(Cadsuade might have found out about it...I think that is the method used by Verin), and so she asked something related to the vile acts perpetrated by the BA, not those by the Reds.

No she asked about the business of stilling several male channelers on the spot (contrary to tower law).

Those gentlings are later. Or stretched over 20 years, not exactly after the Aiel War. And that was a talk between Elaida and Alviarin.

The killing of the ex-gray Amyrlin was years later, by the Red Ajah, not exactly after the Aiel War.

Annoura is gray.

Abruptly her voice hardened, and her gaze. “Were either of you involved in that . . . vileness . . . right after the Aiel War?”

 

Despite herself, Merana gave a confused start. The other woman’s eyes spoke of the block and the headsman’s axe. “What vileness? I don’t know what you are talking about.”

 

That accusing glare hit Annoura so hard, she almost fell off the bed. “The Aiel War?” she gasped, steadying herself. “The years after, I spent trying to make the so-called Grand Coalition more than a name.”

 

Merana looked at Annoura with interest. A good many of the Gray Ajah had scurried from capital to capital after, the war, in a futile effort to hold together the alliance that had formed against the Aiel, but she had never known Annoura was one of them. She could not be that bad a negotiator if she was. “So did I,” she said. Dignity. Since setting out after al’Thor from Caemlyn, she had not retained much of that. The few scraps remaining were too precious to lose. She made her voice calm, and firm. “What vileness do you mean, Cadsuane?”

 

The gray-haired woman simply waved the question away, as though she had never spoken the word.

She's very specific about the 'right after' part.

-The search party was killed

-the Amyrlin(Tamra Ospenya) was killed by the BA

-the BA started killing lucky men.

THe gentlings were stretched out over 20 years.

The Amyrlin killed by the Reds(Sierin Vayu) died 5 years years after the Aiel Wars, not exactly after.

During the scene where Annoura is first introduced, when Rand returns from Dumai's Wells, Annoura is described rubbing her thumbs against her forefingers nervously. This is immediately after Colavere faints where Annoura was the only Aes Sedai in that room, so she would have no reason to be making Black Ajah hand signals. Seems to me she just has a nervous habit of rubbing her thumbs.

 

Also ACOS

 

"Perrin was sure the Asha'man would have let her fall.

 

Annoura tsked. She did not appear surprised, or perturbed, except that her thumbs rubbed her forefinger nervously. 'I suspect she would have preferred the headsman. I will see to her if you have your man..., your... Asha'man...'"

Don't forget the talk Cadsuane had with Annoura&co.

The thumb is the least of her slip up.

She is playing with her thumbs, and Cadsuane asks her in a calm way if she was somehow related to the 'vile business' after the Aiel War, and she almost falls off the bed, and loses all composure.

I think Cadsuane asked her about the execution of the Amyrlin and the deaths of all the AS in the search party that tried to locate Rand.

If the thumbs can be explained, that other slip-up can't unless she knows about the search or the killings, and the only live persons on the Light side that do know about it were Siuan and Moiraine.

While Siuan was stilled and after, she could lie. Now, stilling is permanently sealing the AS from the True Source. They can still feel the Source, but not use it, the same as in momentary shielding.

The feel of the source is usually described as a light or a warmth in the back of the mind or behind one's shoulder--just out of reach.

The only personal description of a stilled person is Siuan in her cell: "Despite herself she tried to embrace saidar. There was nothing there. Not for her. Only the emptiness inside..."

I'd say that the severed CANNOT feel the source.

Actually, it's in TGH, chapter 5

Stilled. The word seemed to quiver in the air, almost visible. When it was done to a man who could channel the Power, who must be stopped before madness drove him to the destruction of all around him, it was called gentling, but for Aes Sedai it was stilling. Stilled. No longer able to channel the flow of the One Power. Able to sense saidar, the female half of the True Source, but no longer having the ability to touch it. Remembering what was gone forever. So seldom had it been done that every novice was required to learn the name of each Aes Sedai since the Breaking of the World who had been stilled, and her crime, but none could think of it without a shudder. Women bore being stilled no better than men did being gentled.

Siuan was probably talking about the fact she couldn't use it, but it was there.

Annoura was shielded; Crown of Swords Chapter 5. She seems bound to the 3 Oaths; the Oaths seemed to still apply when she was shielded.

Annoura is probably Black Ajah.

 

Why do you think that?

She was meeting in secret with Masema(and probably Suroth?!?)

Don't know for sure, but there are some questions about her.

While Siuan was stilled and after, she could lie. Now, stilling is permanently sealing the AS from the True Source. They can still feel the Source, but not use it, the same as in momentary shielding.

I think that the shield they use to momentarily cut the AS from the OP works the same, or are very close. They both use only Spirit, both cases have the same results(inability to use the OP, but can still fill the TS).

Can a AS that is shielded tell a lie? Since the oaths are connected to the OP/TS, while they are cut from it, even for a short while, they should be able to do it, right?

From Aviendha's viewing of her families futur I got the following impressions:

 

1. If the Aiel hold their honer and do not return to the way of the leaf the Seanchan will eventually conquer all of Randland and utterly destory the Aiel.

 

2. If the Aiel do swallow their pride and go back to the way of the leaf then the political lines will hold where they are and the Dragon's peace will reign for a lot longer.

 

 

 

I really do not like these impressions because I really like the Aiel and I think it is too soon for the Aiel to be forced back into that role. However it is unlikely to be a plot thread that is wrapped up for us.

 

 

 

Personally I feel that with a concerted effort the Aiel (en mass) could mop the Seanchan up like a spilled drink.

There's no peace that will last forever. Sooner or later, someone will break it.

If Rand can make them keep the peace(marry Avi and became Aiel), or force Fortuona to release the WO, they'll have no problem with them. And they'll be forced by ji'e'toh to keep the peace.

If the follow the Way of the Leaf and the war starts anyway, and it will, they will be conquered anyway, because they'll be the perfect da'covale. The Aiel will cease to exist as a people, and be integrated as no more than slaves in the Seachan Empire.

And I like the Aiel as they are now. Just saying.

Brandon Sanderson saw the Seachan winning, in some controlled condition.

And if I have to chose between your opinion and his, I'll go for his view on the matter.

If they decide to not train damane anymore, they can train them differently, but in the Empire.

Why give your best weapon to the enemy?

And they can use them as soldiers, men and women.

I think LM was asking why she didn't tried to intercept the remaining raken on their way back, after the raid was finished, and destroy them on their way back to Ebou Dar.

Well, she was weakened in the fighting, not to mention the forkroot, it was night and the raken were almost impossible to locate(or high enough to be out of range for an attack), and they didn't knew their return route.

And once she was back in the camp, they had more important stuff to do(or so they thought).

I did mean on their way back to Ebou Dar.

"It's dark" is not an excuse, the way back to Ebou Dar would take several days with rest stops along the way - that was mentioned by the raid commander.

Back in her camp, Egwene had enough AS to order around that could do the task, she didn't HAVE to go herself (though she could have the forkroot Healed out of her). In terms of power, she still has the sa'angreal, with that you can blast raken miles high or at least set-up the mother of all lightning-storms for them.

There were many options how to get back at the air-borne raiding party, but the didn't think about it -- RJ didn't think about it.

csarmi is also right. Plot hole. They needed Travel as well. How where they to attack the WT again without gateways? And I'm talking about a massive attack, not a mini-raid like the first one.

If keeping the knowledge of Traveling is so important, and it is, Why doesn't Egwene Travel halfway to Ebou Dar to intercept the raiding party?

 

She didn't know when the raid would occur for starters. She wouldn't have known where the staging area would be either. And, she wouldn't go close to the Seanchan, especially in their territory. Besides that, she couldn't go there and just sit on her hands for weeks on end in the hope that she could stop them that way. She would have pee'd her pants any time she saw a raken or heard that Seanchan drawl. It would be too unsafe to send someone there in her place, and she wasn't in a position to go there herself being Elaida's prisoner at the time.

I think LM was asking why she didn't tried to intercept the remaining raken on their way back, after the raid was finished, and destroy them on their way back to Ebou Dar.

Well, she was weakened in the fighting, not to mention the forkroot, it was night and the raken were almost impossible to locate(or high enough to be out of range for an attack), and they didn't knew their return route.

And once she was back in the camp, they had more important stuff to do(or so they thought).

Hopefully I've got a simple question here...

 

I was reading the beginning of the Elaida poll thread, and it was stated that Elaida was tainted by Fain. What? When did this happen and how did I miss it? :( Or is someone screwing with me.... I don't know anything anymore it appears....help?

Some say that Fain had enough time while visiting the WT to spread some of his taint around. It may be so, I don't know for sure.

Some jump at this to explain the AS dissension inside the tower, but I personally don't believe it took a lot of work to turn them against each other.

Elaida and the AS didn't acted like crazy people because they wanted to, they were forced by Fain. Maybe, who knows? I still have my doubts.

Do you mean the Innkeeper in Tanchico? If yes I've never thought of that the honey hair in braids seemed a cultural look to me. If she was Liandrin's sister then I don't think Elayne and Nynaeve would have done so well there so I think not.

It's not only the braid.

-they look almost like twins(the girls tought it was Liandrin at first)

-the same hairstyle, origin, hair color, etc

-and Rendra said she had a mean older sister.

I don't think they were very close. Liandrin probably never thought about her family after joining the BA/WT. So no help or contact between her.

Is Rendra Liandrin's little sister?!?

Voted for Aviendha. She's just awesome(most of the time).

But technically, the hottest woman will be one killed with a fireball. Or balefire. Is balefire hot?

The perfect justice system.

You won't commit crime twice.

 

And you work say 20 years in civil service for free or repay in some way. Who knows what else. You also lose 70 years of your life.

There are hundreds of ways someone can kill someone with the OP, directly or indirectly.

Let's say X(AS) kills someone with fire. He takes an oath to not do that again.

He then uses an lightning bolt to hit a car, killing everybody around it.

Or just weaken the structure of a road/building, and the first to pass it will most likely die.

Or he can push a guy with a wave of air(or keep him/her trapped) in front of a car/train/jo-car.

He could just pay another guy to do the killing for him.

They should make X swore a couple dozens oaths to guard against every possible breach that will allow him to do it again, or simply tell him to make one oath, to never use the OP again. They don't usually sever(still, gentle) someone from the OP, because that will probably be a death sentence.

And if he is incarcerated for the crime, he can't use the OP to break free.

It's hard to believe that in a world where they don't even know the concept of war, and crime is almost gone, a guy blowing up a city/block/car with balefire will just receive a slap on his wrist and be let to do his thing as long as he swears on the Binder that he'll never do it again.

What justice is that?

I believe that in the AOL they were only to take one oath (something like 'I will follow the orders of the court') so as to minimize the effect.

 

They didn't take any in the AoL. "Binders" were used on criminals...

 

Zeesh. And how did you think it was used on them?

 

Obviously, by them swearing an oath to follow the law (bind themselves as criminals).

 

Maybe not being able to have children is a limitation of the Binder. After all, the criminals the Binder was used on were imprisoned, probably for life, and they weren't allowed conjugal visits.

 

Very unlikely. The point of the binder is that they do not HAVE to be imprisoned at all. They can make them swear an oath to obey the law fully, or obey the judge's orders completely. Then given instruction on what they can do, and what they can't do.

 

So why would they be imprisoned?

So if an AS kills someone with the OP, they just tell him not to do it again(with the binder) and send him home?

Strange justice system...

 

Maybe not being able to have children is a limitation of the Binder. After all, the criminals the Binder was used on were imprisoned, probably for life, and they weren't allowed conjugal visits.

 

They didn't imprison in the AoL. In the AoL, they just had to swear never to do the crime again.

 

Is there a quote for that?

I was thinking that they were using the Binder to stop them from using OP again(stilling/gentling was probably never used), and then treated like normal criminals.

If they stop them from channeling, they don't have to guard and shield them all the time.

Siuan is much younger than 60 years old - she was sent to the Tower immediately after it was discovered she could channel, so most likely she was between 14 and 16. Then she spent 6 years training before the events of New Spring, which were in 978 NE. The current year is 1000 NE, so she's around 42-44 years old.

Shes around 42. And Moiraine 44. But since they age a lot slower, even with the Binder, they should look around 25 years old(like Nynaeve, who was a wilder and started channeling later).

Yea and why did she lose it in the first place?

 

Well if Aes Sedai age twice as fast when under oath (but their face doesn't) she would have been about 60-ish in body and most women have gone through menopause by then.

From my pov, I think it's a little different.

Let's say that a normal woman can reach 100 years old, and a channeler will go to 500(250 with Oath Rod).

If a normal woman will reach menopause around 50-60 years, channelers will reach that point(and will start having gray hair) in like 300 years(or 150 with the Binder).

A woman channeler should age 5 times slower than a normal woman(2.5 with Binder).

So Aviendha, which is around 20 now, should look and act like a woman in her forties after 100 years. If she uses the binder now and waits for 100 years, she will have ageless features, but if she renounce the oaths she'll look and act like an 60 years old, and will increase her life expectancy from 100-125 to 200-250 years, the ones she had left.

Siuan is 40+ years old, and has been in slow aging process for a little over 20 years, so she should look like a woman of 23-26 years old. Which she does.

Maybe not being able to have children is a limitation of the Binder. After all, the criminals the Binder was used on were imprisoned, probably for life, and they weren't allowed conjugal visits.

I'm curious, did anyone talked about AS being pregnant? I know Verin once made a joke about the White A. being used for birthing more channelers, when they presented the idea of using hte male channelers as breeding stock(similar to Shara).

And even in Shara, only male channelers are used to breed with normal women. Are the women channelers there bonded by an Oath Rod somehow? Or they are to awesome to have babies, just like the AS?

I don't think it will extend their life expectancy.

While under oaths, they get old twice as fast. So, if a female channeler would have lived 500 years without the oaths, she'll live only 250 with them.

If they stay 100 years with the oaths, they already wasted 200 years from those 500.

So, after 100 years with oaths(200 without), they will still have 300 years to live.

But if they take the oaths again, the 300 will became 150, so it will not matter how many times they take the oaths, the loss of life is the same.

Actually, we don't know of the direct effect of the action in itself. Maybe they lose 10% of their life expectancy every time they take the oaths, besides the cutting the rest in half, so it will not be a good thing to play with those oaths.

Has anyone ever voiced the theory that Elaida is really Judge Dredd? Just curious.

Not since I'm around here(not too long). But no, I don't think so. How did you managed to come up with that idea?

From what I can remember from the little I know about him, Dredd should be a good guy, at least in his organisation. He even refuses the position of First Judge, and saves the day more than once. Elaida on the other hand...

I think it's better if you make a Children of the Light Galad = Judge Dredd.

That's the guy who'll uphold the law no matter the costs. And the Children are the Jury, Judge and Executioner sort of organisation.

I´m reading tGS and Semirhage is captured. Cad and CO are forbidden to torture her (Rand Sedai´s order) so Cadsuane ponders how she is gonna break her and realizes that she is abit like Semi and she needs to figure out how to break herself. She ponders and ponders and tada... if she spanks Semi she will break. I know the spanking is not the actual point but that it´s humiliating.

 

My prob with this is... I don´t buy that Semi would think that is so humiliating. Are there any hints in her character that she would break under such circumstances (getting spanked?) For example... I do understand that Aiel would find it extremly shaming/humiliating to sort pebbles cause their society is based on usefulness/being warrioirs and so on). So if Semi was Aiel she would get such a task. I do understand that if the Aiel wanted to humiliate a wetlander I´m sure there would be lots if: "Go attend the sweattents" or "jump around naked" cause that would humiliate the wetlander. Those examples fit with the world/chars Jordan has created.

 

Can someone explain how Semi, one that was so feared her own jailors smuggled her out, someone that has tortured many people simply cause it´s fun... breaks from some quick smacks on the botton =/

Well, she was a very powerful couple of hundreds years old person in the AoL, when spanking and public humiliation were a big no no, and they were the only one that did it after they were Forsaken.

Now, they have almost godlike status with the shadowspawn and DF, and are feared by the rest.

Even as a captive, everybody was afraid of her. To lose that status and be treated as a ten year old, and spanked and reduced to tears in front of servants, was a huge shock to her.

She took a position of power even as her undercover facade. As the Voice/Speaker of the Royal bloodline of Seachan, he could treat the most powerful person in the world like trash and get away with it.

But I think what really got to her was the fact that a DF/Forsaken could actually find out about that treatment, and that would be the end for her. She would became a joke for the Forsaken. Being spanked by a 'so called AS', in front of servants.

Not even Shaidar Haran will stoop that low to look at her, not to mention rape her. Well, that will be only good thing that could come out of that.

Question: What if Cadsuade captures Shaidar Haran and uses the same tactics on him? And he escapes. What will he do to her before feeding her to his Trollocs?