Moiraine becomes prisoner in book 5 at the end right before Rand kills Rahvin..

She wasn't under any orders with the quote I provided. It is precisely that she was in contact with Nyn and Elayne that she wouldn't tell. Not to mention how could Moiriane have possibly been present in book 5?

 

LoC

She hesitated, but the agreement between her, Nynaeve and Elayne – Light, how long ago had they made it?

 

Now if you are talking about book 4 we have a different scenario entirely. Egwene had made a promise, that is why she couldn't tell him. Rand's actions forced the scenario and she was playing at being AS since they were arguing. Avi and Moir's agreement in the scene show she was in the right. Bottom line though she wasn't telling because of the promise. My point holds becuase while you are getting book numbers and situations wrong it would be far too much to hope that you give us the proper context.

 

I am talking about the scene in book 5 I believe right before Mat tells about Morgase when Moir and Egwene are talking to Rand. She makes a determination that he does not need to know about the rebel location with the typical Egwene arrogance.I do not have the electronic books you probably do so you can look it up/

 

So you are saying Galad wouldn't come at her call? No idea why you even bother to make this decision, as usual your point holds zero bearing on the topic at hand. Military might does not equal political clout in this instance. Not to mention there is not a king or queen in the world outside of Seanchan rule that would not still come at the Amyrlin's bidding(the same can not be said of Taim). Of course Egwene will not personally lead either of those forces which is totally beside the point being made.

When did I say anything about Galad? Anyway isn't he sworn to Perrin who follows Rand?

Irrespective of Galad, the strongest military forces in Randland(The Aiel and Ashaman) are no where in Egwene's control now will they come to any summon she makes. Pretty far stretch to say she is the leader of Randland's forces as the poster who I was replying to said initially.

A few points to consider regarding the Rand - Egwene meeting:

- The first thing Rand did after weeping on his grave was visiting the WT. It wasn't opening a gateway to anywhere else to handle other matters. So, the WT is very high on Rand's priority list. It has a very important role to play in his plan; and his statement to Egwene that "she did her part" indicates it.

- Rand intended for it to be high drama and intentionally wanted to rile up the WT (for unexplained reasons).

- Rand was confident that he would go in and out of the WT; and did not fear A.S. or Egwene actually "boxing" him again.

- Rand entered Tar Valon unannounced when the last credible reports on him was near madness and nearly destroying a borderlander army to teach them a lesson in humility (hardly good PR).

- Egwene did not feel prepared to meet Rand; yet was forced to in order to show her that she wasn't a DR "puppet."

- Egwene started the meeting seeing Rand as the DR (to be feared); but changed to seeing him as Rand (a man that can be trusted, with the fate of the world).

- Egwene had him shielded and could have detained him in the WT because of his "insane" unformulated plan; but she let him leave and agreed to meet him a month later.

- All her actions since the meeting point to use of persuasion and "diplomacy" to convince Rand that his plan is not right. There is no indication that she intends to deny him "physically," which would have been the case if she didn't trust him.

 

In the end, I feel that both Rand and Egwene trust each other enough to handle this matter for the greater good.

Egwene and Rand are not equal. She follows the dragon in the LB not the other way around.

Well Rand knows something about the seals as LTT put them in place while Egwene knows absolutely nothing about the seals.

 

And Egwene is not the leader of the non-seachan forces of the light. Did she appoint herself to that position? The AS has fallen far and they no longer have the same authority if they ever did as the leaders of Randland.

 

We know what Rand knows about the seals, and he doesn't have any clue what to do after breaking them, or how to re-seal the Dark One. Rand would know better than her what would happen after the seals are cleared, but he does very little to explain it or reassure them, just gives a throwaway line that it'll be a bit worse, but it's a risk they have to take.

 

And as for Egwene not being the leader of the non-Seanchan forces for the Light, what Suttree said. Also, she's as much the leader of the Westlands as the President of the United States is the leader of the world. She has enormous political power and enormous control over various resources, enough that she can see her will done in any nation not under Seanchan control, and maybe even in a few territories that are.

As usual Sutree talks about the time when the AS power was the strongest and the Lord Captain commander would come at her bidding. In Randland today the 2 strongest military powers are the Aiel and the Ashman. Egwene is no where the leader of either of these 2 forces.

Considering the Egwene has no idea about the seals,what happens if the seal gets broken or anything else about the seals, not sure what makes her an expert with her suggestion on how to defeat the DO without breaking the seals. She is starting from blank zero she has no knowledge.

As Egwene told Rand in book 5 if I remember correctly when he asked about the rebel AS location "You will be told what you need to know and will not be told what you do not need to know". Perhaps the seals are way above Egwene's pay grade and she does not need to know?

 

you need to reread the books. that was in book 6. egwene merely told him she couldn't divulge salidar AS location because she was under orders.

 

Actually it was in LoC. But as usual xxx doesn't let the facts stop him from trying to make Egwene look bad. Far from what he claims she says...

 

"I can’t tell you that, Rand. I have no right. It isn’t mine to tell."

I am referring to a different instance in book 5. A scene when both Moraine and Egwene are meeting with Rand. She was under no orders from Salidar as the only persons she was in contact with are Ny and Elyane.

As Egwene told Rand in book 5 if I remember correctly when he asked about the rebel AS location "You will be told what you need to know and will not be told what you do not need to know". Perhaps the seals are way above Egwene's pay grade and she does not need to know?

Such ridiculous contortions of logic here. We should give Rand the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he's doing, despite the fact that he doesn't explain it to anybody, and from his own points of view, we, as the more or less omniscient readers, know that he doesn't really have a plan any more in depth than, "This feels right, Min, plug the holes for me." On the other hand, we shouldn't give Egwene any benefit of the doubt that she'll listen to his reasons, and if they're good ones, back him in his plan. Yes, she's marshaling forces and preparing her case against his "plan." That's exactly what she should be doing, and it's the reason Rand picked this tack instead of the reasonable, diplomatic course, so she would marshal her forces, really his forces, for him. It's ridiculous to think her default position shouldn't be "No, not at all will we back this plan, not until we know the full extent of the reasons behind suggesting it, and possibly not even then." This isn't a plan about which she should be thinking, "You know, maybe, that might work, or might be necessary for something else to work, I want to hear more before I make up my mind." Everything Egwene and the Aes Sedai and anybody else who was raised in the Westlands and who knows anything at all about the Dark One, the seals and the Bore would tell them that this "plan," presented without any rationale or overarching strategy which incorporates it, should be feared and opposed, no matter who proposes it, let alone someone who could be insane.

 

And I'll say it again, the notion that the Dragon Reborn should be accommodated or supported in everything he thinks to do is as insane as he should be. Egewene's position is reasonable. And that doesn't mean that Perrin's, Nynaeve's or Elayne's positions are unreasonable, but they are far more trusting of Rand, which is a trust that Egwene, who is essentially the leader of the non-Seanchan forces of the Light, can't afford and has no reason to possess.

Well Rand knows something about the seals as LTT put them in place while Egwene knows absolutely nothing about the seals.

And Egwene is not the leader of the non-seachan forces of the light. Did she appoint herself to that position? The AS has fallen far and they no longer have the same authority if they ever did as the leaders of Randland.

Didn't Egwene tell Rand when he asked about the rebel AS location that "he is told what he needs to know and he will not be told what he does not need to know". Perhaps now it is the same with the seals. I guess the Amyrlin does not like the shoe on the other foot.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander?

Isn't there a part in one of the later books, after Egwene is raised to Amyrlin but before she is captured by the Tower AS, when she says to herself something along the lines of she knows that she's in the right, because she has the whole world to take care of? I have no idea which book it's in, but that part always bothered me. It was a very audacious assumption that, even at her young age, she knew what was best for everyone, better than anyone else. I know she's really smart and was trained well by Siuan, but what an arrogant statement. Can anyone help find that chapter?

She thinks herself as a hero of the horn in the seachan raid too..all in all she has a too big opinion of herself. None of the other main characters other than Rand think of themselves in such grand ways.Atleast Rand is the Dragon so has an excuse, even Siuan Sanche never considered herself indispensable when she was Amyrlin.

And then there's of course also the whole thing regarding the Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai, cause clearly only Aes Sedai are good enough to bond anybody.

On one hand she is realistic enough to realize that the dominance of the tower as the lord of all channeling groups is gone for ever and on the other she continues to display outrage over anything which actually displays the diminished level of the female AS in the current world such as the AM bonding the AS.

What happened wasn't a coup, at least in the usually understood sense of that term. It was more like an impeachment. Coups don't follow established precedent and law, what happened to Suian did, though just barely. And when the Hall acts, there is a presumption of the inherent legality of that act. You have to show that the Hall violated previously established law or tradition, without bothering to legislate changes to the law first, in order to have reason to believe that Suian's removal was illegal. In fact, it was not illegal. The requisite number of Sitters were present and voted in the required proportions to remove Suian. Gawyn would have no reason to suspect that Suian's removal was illegal, and every reason to believe that it was legally valid.

If legal..it was barely legal and how did Gawyn know who much it was legal or not?

I do not like a lot of her action..chief being her sexism and her attitude that she knows better than Rand about the seals.

Gawyn had no idea the BA had been pulling strings in this situation. He had an obligation to the WT as a trainee to stop what he viewed as a traitorous act. Had he known the vote to impeach Siuan was rigged he obviously would have chosen a separate course of action.

How did he know the coup which Elaida engineered to dispose Siuan was legal? Most coups in the world are plain illegal.

gawyn is morally bankrupt if you ask me. How do you explain killing your own teachers who were trying to free siuan and yet free her yourself when you get the chance.

 

I have always maintained on the battlefield he is a level above his brother. But when it comes to moral behaviour, this kid is screwed in the head

I am agreeing with Elan Tedronai..will wonders never cease!!

Gawyn is, beyond question, guilty of egregious douchebaggery. But your example is not a good one. Gawyn had no reason to believe Suian's deposing was improper. Neither did the Warders who attempted to free her. As far as either group knew, Suian was properly removed. Gawyn was following the law as established.

 

And that's without even getting into the fact that joining an organization does not deprive one of moral agency. If he felt the actions of the rebel Warders to be unlawful and wrong, he should have opposed them. The same goes for those rebel Warders themselves.

But how did Gawyn know what the law was. His motivation in a large extent seems to be personal antagonism towards Suian because she was in his opinion putting her sister and his lover in danger.

I was re-reading "The Shadow Rising" and when Siuan Sanche got deposed what right did Gawyn have to run around killing warders. He was a student in the tower with absolutely no role or responsibility in the tower.He poked his nose into something he should not have, allowed Elaida to rule and killed his masters.Well done.

I hope he gets burned into ash by Rand in AMOL.

Cads loyalty and motivations are not in doubt..however some of her methods are stupid. Publicly humiliating the DR by either hitting him or disagreeing with him only undermine's him when he is trying to gather nations and people around him most of whom are reluctant to do so in the first place. Though I need to give her kudos on bravery in angering someone who could kill her easily.

Anyway on the second read..I found Cads more bearable because I know that it is leading upto the point when she pushes Rand over the top and then for all her bluster literally soils herself when faced with the Dragon's anger.

It is immaterial if Andorans would have accepted Rand or not. If Rand did not know Elayne he would have put a steward in place to rule for him like he did elsewhere. With the Aiel behind him..there is nothing Andorans could have done differently from Tear or Illian or Carhein. Some would have revolted but would never have dared to fight the Aiel face to face.

 

It is not like Andorans are more loyal to the monarchy than any other place..after all the 2 rivers was in open revolt.

 

1. Rand was a Regent, he never took the throne as in Tear or Cairhein, nor allowed the Aiel to take the fifth. His POV clearly shows what his thoughts were speaking with Dyelin.

 

LoC ch 16

"I will not welcome you-this is your land, and the palace of your Queen"

 

2. Andor has a much larger Army than all those other nations mentioned and while Rand controlled Caemlyn he had zero hold on the rest of a very large nation. Once again, I have no idea why people are choosing to ignore what is made plain in the text. Both nobles and commoners expressed a unified desire to drive the Aiel out. They reference what has happened in other nations and vow to not allow it in Andor.

 

3. Andorans are described as being more patriotic than other countries. It is a decrease in population that has prevented her Queens from exercising their control of lands west of the River Manetherendrelle for several generations. The Two Rivers didn't know they were part of Andor so can hardly be used as an example.

The fact is they could not do it..the Aiel would have smashed them. Talk is pretty cheap. I could say I am going to take on Randy Coutore..in reality I would not last 10 sec before getting my teeth knocked out.

Not sure if the Andoran army is stronger than Tear..both are considered the strongest nations in randland...it is immaterial anyway because the Aiel is stronger than all of them.

The Aiel took the 5th in Tear..they also took the 5th in Illian. Cairhein I am not certain but I think Rand fobid it because of how badly the city was smashed up. The only reason they did not take the 5th in Andor was that Rand wanted to hold the throne for Elayne. As I said if he did not know Elayne they would have taken the 5th like they did elsewhere and except for talk nothing much the Andorans could do about it.

It is immaterial if Andorans would have accepted Rand or not. If Rand did not know Elayne he would have put a steward in place to rule for him like he did elsewhere. With the Aiel behind him..there is nothing Andorans could have done differently from Tear or Illian or Carhein. Some would have revolted but would never have dared to fight the Aiel face to face.

It is not like Andorans are more loyal to the monarchy than any other place..after all the 2 rivers was in open revolt.

I consider all talk about any united Andoran revolt against Rand taking the throne just talk..we have not seen any greater loyalty by the Andorans to the throne compared to the other nations the Dragon conquered. After all a large portion of Andor..2 Rivers is in open revolt of Andoran authority.

What chivalry..when they consider themselves superior than wool headed men?

Can't really blame Elayne for going to Ebou Dar to find the bowl. You can however blame her for wasting over a month searching on their own instead of asking for Mats help, didn't Tanchico teach Elayne and Nynaeve that men can actually be quite useful at times? Woolheaded women ;P

 

 

That's one thing that is so infuriating about these books; women find men to be useless, even after they've been saved, rescued by them a dozen times. Doesn't make logical sense at all.

More infuriating is the men rescuing them..maybe that would bring them down couple of pegs

Well, Andor is basically a loosely elective monarchy. So it was "unconsitutional" (or whatever version of that Andoran's would say) to have a foreign ruler (Rand) conquer the country and just hand it over to Elayne. As much as XXX47 thinks everyone should already be willing to give up everything they ever believed or thought or agreed for Rand, that's not how things work in the real world.

 

The idiots of Randland do not even believe their own prophecies..the Dragon is supposed to break all the old bonds and loyalties.

It is no wonder Rand snapped at the end..if I were in his place going mad from the taint and destined to die for idiots not even appreciative, I would have balefired a whole lot of them a long time ago.

Once the OP is used against a non channeling group in battle then it is only a matter of time before every house,kingdom,noble has their own private channeling army. There is no need to send every woman to the WT or man to the BT.

Elayne was correct in not using the OP to win..it would be a short term victory but a disaster in the long term.

RJ loses control of the books in the end...things do not move at all. BS's pacing is on a whole different level.ToM was excellent.