Logain really did not do enough to merit the glory Min saw.

 

 

His glory was saving the peasants.

I assume it was referring to glory in the 4th age; saving the peasants is only the first step to his glory. Logain, as the head of the Black Tower, will probably spend the next 200-400 years as one of the most powerful/influential individuals in the world.

As already stated the numbers for many contingents felt a bit off.

 

The Aiel for example seemed to have only a fraction of the numbers of both fighters and channelers that we ahve seen before.

 

Also aside from the Andorrans and the Borderlanders the rest of the nations seem to take little part.

 

As for the battle descriptions themselves BS follows the RJ path of overpowering missile weapons (crossbows as powerful as breech loading rifles, 'dragons' that seem superior to Napoleonic era artillery), overstating the mobility of cavalry and adds no conception of distance (read again how far it is from Caemlyn to those woods where the ambush is waiting).

Not only did the Aiel numbers seem off, but so did their value as fighters. Throughout the series they were held up as these super-soldiers who could fight well in all situations. Yet they are treated as if they are only good as skirmishers/irregularsin aMoL.

Either the light-side lost a ton more troops than indicated at Caemlyn, Breem Wood, Cairhien, retreat from Shienar, retreat from Kandor, or the last battle scale seemed way off. Would've been nice if they had given better indications of the number of troops involved/lost. Where were the Borderland foot soldiers? The 200K army that had marched to Far Madding could not have been all cavalry.

Wow, just finished. I think aMoL was definitely a satisfying finish to this long journey most of us have been on with this series. The final book was definitely action packed. Many of the events and resolutions surprised me a lot.

I think I was so satisfied with this volume that my main issues seem almost minor quibbles.

Where was Dobraine Taborwin? I would've thought a major, early Rand supporter who was also a hardened battle commander would at least get a mention in the final book and the last battle.

Narishma is from Arafel and not Kandor. I assume this was just a typo when Mat and Narishma reach Lan after he bested Demandred.

What happened to the foot soldiers of the Borderland army? I assume an army of 200K could not be purely cavalry. Were they all destroyed during the retreat and ensuing battles after Tarwin's Gap?

The scale of the Last Battle at the FoM seemed off to me. Even after losses in Caemlyn, Shienar, and Kandor, I would've thought the Light-side would've had hundreds of thousands of troops remaining (especially counting the Seanchan armies). In the text this seemed like a battle involving a lot fewer light-side troops; but this may have just been because of the focus on individual characters.

I was hoping to get some view of Arafel and Arafellian culture (every other Randland nation has had significant treatment in the series; the only Arafel action I recall is Moiraine and Lan visiting Vandene and Adeleas). I guess the White Tower and Seanchan armies were in Arafel after Demandred's trap, and that the FoM battlefield was half in Arafel; but I am still disapointed.

But as I said, my initial quibbles are very, very minor.

Also, Androl and Pevara are awesome.

I can't recall when I fist realized Dashiva was a Foresaken, but in retrospect on rereads there were tons of clues.

Thanks!

Re-reading tPoD. When Rand rains fire and lightning on his own troops (and kills Adley) using Callandor, do we know definitively if this is due to Saidin being "alive" following the use of the Bowl of the Winds or is it due to the flaw in Callandor?

The scene where Alanna bonds Rand always angers me. I think Rand didn't lay the smack down for a couple reasons: 1) they were women; 2) He was angry but LTT was more baffled and chocked. Rand did take out his anger on the girls from the Two Rivers and scared the heck out of them.

The beauty of the bond is that Rand feels how Alanna is feeling through the bond. It is mentioned several times that he knows she's been crying.

 

There was no need, and he knew it. Plus finding them, with his large band would have taken too long.

He could've just sent out some of his scouts, no need to deviate the whole Band. Esp considering RJ just purposely introduced us to his poachers turned scouts ;)

Why I doubt the theory:

 

1) Too coincidental with the assasination attempt using a gateway and Aiel that night where the slaughter made Mat camp.

 

2) A considerable distance from Altara and Murandy

 

3) I would think Mat would've set Vanin and his other trackers off to track down whoever it was if there was a trail left behind...my guess is a troop of Whitecloacks that far from Amador would leave a significant trail given that they would probably be on horseback, potentially with numerous remounts.

 

1) What does 1 have to do with the other? The gateway was opened right on top his tent, no need to be anywhere near there

2) Point

3) Why? He had a job to do ,and a place to be. He couldn't waste the time.

1) Fair enough. A coincidence can just be a coincidence ;)

2) :)

3) He isn't in a rush, the quick march is purely to teach the Band how to do it. Although the armies in Tear are waiting for him, there is no rush since the troop buildup is just to hold Sammuel's attention, IIRC this is mentioned somewhere, maybe in the Maerone chapter. Also, if there is a band of hostile troops out there somewhere, a good military commander wants to know, regardless of whether he plans to attack them or not, especially if they are now in your territory. And given there was a message left for Rand, you would think mat would want to investigate who was responsible for the attack for it could be related to the message.

Do we know the names yet that Moraine is going ton share with Thom? The Aes Sedai responsible for Owain's gentling. If not, I hope that is going to lead to some Grey Fox awesomness in aMoL!

Why I doubt the theory:

1) Too coincidental with the assasination attempt using a gateway and Aiel that night where the slaughter made Mat camp.

2) A considerable distance from Altara and Murandy

3) I would think Mat would've set Vanin and his other trackers off to track down whoever it was if there was a trail left behind...my guess is a troop of Whitecloacks that far from Amador would leave a significant trail given that they would probably be on horseback, potentially with numerous remounts.

i just recently finished reading this chapter.

My initial thinking was that maybe whoever orchestrated the Aiel assasination attempt may have also been responsible for the slaughter of the tinkers. The Tinker slaughter is what made Mat decide to stop and make camp. Then Aiel were brought in via gateway for an attack on his tent. Maybe it was a way for the orchestrator to try and pick the ground for the assasination attempt?

I do think your faux-Dragonsworn thoery is possible, but wouldn't they need to cross the river, requiring boats? I thought the Band was travelling on the east bank?

There is also talk of lots of refugees travelling up and down the road, not really knowing where to go and I am pretty sure any Dragonsworn sightings would've been passed on to Mat and his army.

Also, aren't Altara and Murandy a long ways from where the slaughter takes place? Wouldn't they have to cross the Hills of Kintara or Plains of Maredo?

On LoC in my pre-aMoL reread of the series. Taim mentions that he has been in the blight before. How normal is it for a Saldean to have been in the blight? Probably pretty normal for soldiers, but I don't think Taim was a soldier prior to being a false dragon. Why didn't Rand question this? Was he just distracted by LTT's voice telling him to kill Taim?

There seems to be a decline over the whole continent, with vast tracts being sparsely populated or uninhibited. However, the major cities seem to be filled to capacity.

Do we know if the years between the Trolloc wars and Hawkwing were also characterized by declining population?

How does the DO's touch on the world lead to a declining population in relatively stable times?

MoRe failed crops?

More misscariages?

More fluke deaths?

Etc

Kind of like what happened around Dark Rand but more subtle?

I like the "compulsion bomb" idea, and I hope it happens.

However, I recall reading a very good defense of Halima's actions on another thread by Luckers.

I was watching Nial Ferguson's Civilization documentary on PBS a few weeks ago, and he talked a lot about China's history and how it stagnated after closing itself off from the rest of the world. I wouldn't be surprised if RJ drew some inspiration China's history.

Also. the AoL didn't just have a standard of living similar to ours, it was probably much better than ours. Furthermore, rather than relying on innovation, machines (capital), and labor as drivers of economic growth as our world does, they relied also on magic (the OP). It seems they relied upon it such that their machines and innovation all involved the OP. The taint significantly reduced their level of magic, which will cause a serious economic decline. Plus the breaking killed off plenty of Aes Sedai and thus destroyed a large amount of the stock of human capital (e.g., weaves that now are unkown, what most Terangreal do, etc.). The trolloc wars probably destroyed a lot more of the Aes Sedai knowledge that had been handed down, not to mention the knowledge of whole civilizations (e.g., Aridhol, Manethren, etc.).

There also do not seem to be the conditions present that produced the enlightenment and the scientific method. I wouldn't want to be caught dead devoting my life to alchemy in Randland. Someone might be convinced that you are a male channeler!

There is also a large segment of the population devoted to subverting society and causing trouble (Darkfriends).

In my opinion, Randland is not characterized by economic stagantion though. more of a cycle like this:

AoL: Peak

War of Shadow: Total war and eventual economic decline

Breaking: Total economic and societal collapse

AB: Economic upswing

Trolloc Wars: Total war and economic collapse (and societal collapse in some areas)

FY: Economic upswing

Unification: Economic upswing

War of the 100 years: Total war and economic collapse

NE: Economic upswing; Millenial economic peak on Winternight in tEotW

But we are talking a mainly feudalist society here, with no enlightenment or scientific method, or prodestant reformation (which in Randland IMO would probably be a less dogmatic offshoot of the White Tower).

Interesting thread.

Perrin I feel it the one who has done so little with so much. Even though all the players have issues that Dr Phil couldn't figure out. Perrin is the one who doesn't want to be what he is. He fights it all the time. Only accomplishes anything when he is forced to do so because it is the only choice left.

 

All that being said, his parts of the books are still better than some of the girls parts. I do believe BS is better at writing women than RJ was. Because the women parts of the books now are tolerable compared to the parts were Egwene and Elayne were in the tower as Accepted.

That's funny because didn't BS say that the Egwene parts are mostly RJ with a little BS?

What I like most about Perrin is that despite being cast as an introvert, he is very common sense driven. He is willing to put anyone in their place regardless of who they are. He's not afraid to call people out on their bullsh**.

I anticipate this will come in handy when Egwene (or Rand) needs to be taken down a peg or two at the FoM.

The problem is that most of his introspective musings are shallow, repetitive and frankly boring

 

To be fair, as much as I like RJ's style, a lot of his characters can be shallow, repetitive, and yes, even boring once in a while. Mat complains about being a lord all the time, Rand lists off the women that died all the time, Perrin doesn't want to be a leader all the time. Well, there character arcs have sort of resolved recently, but in the mid books, they all did this more.

 

I think all of the characters have faults, but Perrins are less relatable to people. I, for one don't like it if I have more than a couple people's attention on me, so I can totally relate to leadership problems like his, especially when I know in a situation that I'm capable of leading, but feel uncomfortable to do so. So yes, lol, I have this Perrin-thought all the time.

 

I love Mat too, but there's parts of his character I don't like that everyone else goes crazy for. He seems to be a good example of an extravert that's very charismatic, but charisma doesn't really do anything for me, haha, I guess I'm just not charmed by him.

I agree with both of you actually. This is part of RJ's writing style and is one part of the books I am not enamoured with. Thought processes are a little more complex than being so "shallow, repetitive, and boring". Sometimes I feel like the introspective bits are like RJ hitting me over the head with a hammer repeatedly. But I guess we have to take the good with the bad ;)

Currently doing a reread of the series in anticipation of aMoL, and am on tSR. Something Asmodean (as Jasin Nateal) says about the Aiel piqued my interest.

 

tSR Ch 37: "Aiel," he murmured. "Not what I would have expected. I can still hardly credit it."

 

The first part is consistent with the change in the Aiel from pacifist servants into hardened warriors, but the 2md part seemed strange to me. I guess "credit" is confusing me. Credit to whom? Or is credit just a synonym for register (or some other word) here.

 

"Credit it" as in he is having trouble figuring out the reasons how they went from being the way they were to what they have become.

Makes sense. Thanks. Sometimes the simplest answer is the best. i was totally overthinking that one.

Currently doing a reread of the series in anticipation of aMoL, and am on tSR. Something Asmodean (as Jasin Nateal) says about the Aiel piqued my interest.

tSR Ch 37: "Aiel," he murmured. "Not what I would have expected. I can still hardly credit it."

The first part is consistent with the change in the Aiel from pacifist servants into hardened warriors, but the 2md part seemed strange to me. I guess "credit" is confusing me. Credit to whom? Or is credit just a synonym for register (or some other word) here.

Just finished re-reading tGH and a minor thing stuck out when Rand, Verin, Ingtar etc. visit Stedding Tsofu:

It appears that Verin delves the ogier who had been affected by Machin Chin in the ways, but this was in a stedding so she would not have access to the one power. Was this a mistake or am I missing something? Maybe Verin had a ter'angreal that acted as a well? or maybe she was just examining him as a doctor would, i.e., look in his eyes?