Question related to balefire. This is mainly a hypothetical question, and it's really just to use in a "Werewolf" game on another forum.

Let there be 4 people - A, B, C and D. 

The idea - B wishes to kill A. B shoots an arrow but C jumps in front of A and takes the arrow. C is injured and A survives.

Should D balefire C so that C did not exist prior to the jump, would A then be affected by arrow?

Eg's death was not pointless. I don't see how people can view her death as pointless in the slightest (no offence). 

Whereas Galad viewed it as selfless. He viewed it as giving up himself for the greater good. Plus, Galad was ordered (I think? can't remember).

It would have certainly made her arc completely and utterly boring otherwise...

I find it weird how you assume that because she died, all her prior actions were pointless. Plus, if her death wasn't needed for something she wouldn't have been the only main character to die (and by main, I mean 5 EFs, Moiraine, Lan, Thom, Min, Aviendha and Faile).

Lews Therin probably suffers from the same overconfidence that the rest of the AoL channelers (i.e him and the forsaken) seems to have in this age, so the likelihood is he was talking out his arse. 

EDIT: Also, who was in that circle of 3? I can't recall.

Ah, I see. Well, I tried to look around, (mainly using the wiki for dreams and viewings) and didn't see anything that may have referenced. However, I am led to believe there was both foreshadowing in ToM and early on in aMoL, though I can't remember exactly. It's difficult to tell with Min's viewings, because as I said, Min doesn't see Egwene at all for a huge chunk of the series. So yeah, not sure how well her death was foreshadowed prior to Brandon taking over the helm. But then again, I doubt something of that magnitude would be left out of RJ's notes (but I could be horribly wrong here).

I guess Rand always swearing to protect her early in the series could count... She was also built up as quite the Mary Sue, and it 'could' be that Jordan had planned her death because of this, or vice versa.

I don't understand why people say her character arc was leading to a death.

 

She was primed to lead the WT for centuries after having JUST consolidated her rule, had major unfinished business with the Seanchan/damane, had just gotten married, Min never mentioned seeing anything about her dying....

 

What am I missing?

I don't recall exactly how viewings worked, but it seems that Min wasn't ever really around Egwene post aCoS, meaning that she would never had been able to see any new viewings that would have implicated her death. And we never really got her seeing much besides related to Siuan/The Seanchan in aMoL. (Feel free to correct me if wrong).

I disliked the manner of Siuan and Gareth's deaths too. To be honest, I would have much preferred if they had died when Demandred and Shara arrived and blew up the command tent. That struck at me much more than there eventual death. The only good thing about Siuan's death is that is has a parallel to the way her father died (or whoever it was that died in the anecdote she talks about with Mat in tDR).

However, Egwene's death does have much more meaning and it also makes sense. At least to me. See: Terazed's post:

 

Rand squeezed his eyes shut, thinking of all those who had died for him.  Of Egwene, whom he had sworn to himself to protect.

You fool.  Her voice in his head.  Fond, but sharp.

...

Let go, Rand.  Let us die for what we believe, and do not try to steal that from us.  You have embraced your death.  Embrace mine.

Tears leaked from the corners of his eyes.  "I'm sorry," he whispered.

Why?

"I've failed."

No.  Not yet you haven't

The Dark One flayed him.  He huddled before that vast nothingness, unable to move.  He screamed in agony.

And then, he let go.

 

>Redemption to the Redeemer!

Perhaps we are getting confused as to the order of importance of Egwene's accomplishments at her death.  Actually it may be this scene which is the most important of her accomplishments in WOT.  Rand's guilt list has been his tragic flaw throughout almost the entire series.  In book after book characters have been arguing with him over it's unreasonableness but none have been able to argue successfully.  In the beginning Rand tried to make himself hard and kill off his emotions.  Later compassion led him to attempt to embrace the suffering of others.  Even then some characters thought there was something wrong with Rand's attitude, but none could change his mind.

Rand accepts the responsibility of redeeming everyone else by sacrificing himself to kill the DO but underneath he, himself has a desperate need of being redeemed.  When he walks into the Pit and fights the DO completely alone he has achieved only partial enlightenment and thus the DO is able to crush him.  

Looked at this way it might make more sense why Egwene would be the one from the original EF group that needed to die.  She was the first one that he worried about getting killed.  He has been worried about her since day 2 in the barn in EF when she shows up with her sack demanding to go on their adventure without understanding what was at stake.  When they are separated at Shadar Logoth he refuses to accept the possibility she is dead.  Again and again he makes it clear that her death would be unacceptable.  In the end Egwene had to be the one to offer Rand his redemption and allow him to complete his path to enlightenment.  It is interesting that in the end it is not Egwene the Amyrlin or Egwene Sedai that is able to do save Rand but just Egwene al'Vere of the TR.  Throughout the series she is driving herself to an extreme or allowing herself to be physically beaten over and over again in order to build herself up and be in control.  That is certainly a pathological pattern of behavior. In her last battle she is depicted as being in an angry rage the entire time till she cast the flame of Tar Valon.  After that she is able to let go herself.  Perhaps she also was able to achieve a redemption from her own inner demons in the end.

Of course odds are I am completely wrong but it is an explanation that would foreshadow the ending of the book and there is no way Rand could have won without that scene.

 

Oh, I was just wondering what his reasons were. I wasn't going to argue them, was just wanting an alternative view.

I thought killing Egwene was stupid and unforgivable.

Bit of a weak of an explanation, but maybe Demandred didn't know how he had died previously, only that he had died, and attributed his lifestyle prior to sealing as the reason. 

It's far from a perfect ending. I mean, while Egwene was the only to do, the other emonds fielders will have to deal with that. Rand dealt with it when he heard her voice in his battle with the DO, but the rest? I think it will cause a lot of hurt when she is remembered, especially for Nyn. In fact, I'm sure the whole LB and the events leading up to it will weigh heavy on everyone in the future.

Also, one of my friends on another forum guessed the thing with Alivia, though I didn't say. He hasn't read it yet, and he said he didn't care for spoilers. So i told him only one of the characters he listed as important died. And he said it wouldn't be Rand, and that it seems Alivia will help him end his old life and start anew, or something along those lines (though he didn't guess who died and I never told him either). It was something I was wondering about all the way through the book, what with Alivia not being mentioned for huge chunks. Made me wonder what the hell she was getting up to. But it's not really a big deal. It makes sense. I mean, some viewings were fulfilled more literally than others. This one ended up not being particularly literal.

Well, that was me boiling it down to basics. I could tell by the way he felt towards all the peasants loving and thanking him for what he did. I could tell from reading that is what his glory was. I was looking for something awesome. like him somehow beating Demandred or killing Taim or something else wonderful, but as soon as I saw him with the peasants, I knew it. *shrug*

Logain really did not do enough to merit the glory Min saw.

His glory was saving the peasants.

Didn't Sheriam know of it? Verin also knew. Lanfear could have... extracted some information.

Well, wherever the Forsaken go there will be arrogance, so that's nothing unusual. 

Does he have to play every side for every event? Nope. He can bide his time, and attempt to strike at the right moment. He obviously thought that time was the wrong time. I mean, it's not as if cleansing saidin would not be beneficial to all the male channelers on the shadows side anyway (as far as I can tell, it's only the Forsaken who are protected from the taint).

EDIT: Also, who says he was talking about the cleansing when he said that specific thing you quoted?

A mix of good tactics and poor bad guy organisation. The latter is something they really need to work on. (Huh, we've been summoned to this battle. Lets all go individually and not bother trying to work as a team! YAY!). Moridin also doesn't take part in said battle (in case you are wondering). He sent his pets instead. 

But he is. Suttree speaks the truth. 

Well, he is competent at most things. Just not really dealing with the main good guys. Plus, now he is linked he can't really kill Rand just now. Meaning he has to rely on his... pets and his plots to give him the best chance to achieve what he wishes. I'm actually trying to think of things that he may do but I can't really remember much. The latter books are more focused on the other Forsaken (and bad peoples) and their acts, and he is just generally the leader and co-ordinating it all. I may be mistaken though... I have only read through the series once, and finished Book 3 on my reread before I decided to read aMoL. I will be continuing once I get a hold of my books though. 

Yeah, I agree. I think being bested by a "puny 3rd Ager" ruined her a bit. 

Same. I liked his fiery face. Well, besides being Balefire-Linked with Rand, I won't say much. What book are you on?

Well, I like her as a character. She is just a shit evil character. 

And mine are Demandred, Graendal, Ishamael/Moridin (though it's mainly due to his works earlier in the Age rather than his general inefficiency in the books) and Asmodean. Asmodean is just an interesting character to me, and I'm saddened by the fact he don't last long. 

They do have chances of winning. Unfortunately all the bad guys are in it for a different reason than the DO is. Their failures can also be assigned to internal bickering and conflict as much as it is attributed to the good guys luck. And also, the ultimate shadow victory (which is whatever the DO wants, mainly the destruction of the pattern) is highly contrary to the overall theme(s) of the series anyway. 

Oh, and Moghedien is useless. Regardless of pigeons or anything. She is the worst one of the lot. 

I can see where you are coming from. I sometimes did feel underwhelmed by the bad guys. However, I don't think stupidity and bad luck is a purely evil side problem. Every character does stupid things at certain points. Pretty much hoping any character does something logical and rational means you will be in for a tough time. The Wheel has a penchant for making everyone thick as shit. 

The thing is, they aren't lucky every time. They only get lucky occasionally, and when they least expect it. Except Mat, who obviously has extra powers of luck, though that is his only power. I mean, that perfect circle thing is rarity. Most of the time ta'averen affects are random, as I said. You should also be noted that Rand is much more strongly ta'averen than the other two. Meaning he has a bigger air of invincibility. But he has to deal with different problems, mainly personal, than the other two. And just because they don't seem capable of death, doesn't mean other fairly horrible things can't happen to them while the survive through luck. 

The bottom line is RJ wasn't really one for killing off important characters (read: on either side). I'm fairly sure he was criticised for it before, but I don't mind. It's a much different type of fantasy than grimmer variants, such as A Song of Ice and Fire (which I enjoy equally). And it should be noted that, while the villains do indeed appear useless, they are in a really strong position in terms of he grand scheme of things. It's just a shame a lot of that is shown offscreen, since the books do tend to focus around the 3 ta'averen and important people to them.

And just FYI, Hawkwing was killed by stubborness/a word from the wrong mouth because he refused Aes Sedai healing for his illness. 

They have their own free will. The pattern ain't all "Haw you, evil guy, you are gonna do this and this and this exactly as I say". It's likely the character will end up the way the pattern intended, but they way they got there is entirely dependant on their own actions, and their own free will.

And sorry, I didn't check beforehand as to how many times you talked about it. What I find clever is basically RJ was like, well there is gonna be some Deus Ex Machina. So I'm just going to create a world mechanism that basically tells the reader I'm doing this. However, I'm gonna make it so it has some other effects as well. So it was kinda blatantly telling us that's what it is, but he is just adding some extra consequences and trying to twist the mechanism to do some interesting things. At least, in my opinion. Sometimes it is rather telling that it is plainly deus ex machina, but I find it's done well most of the time.

EDIT: And while the pattern is "mapping it out", the tension comes from wondering how certain conflicts are resolved and wondering how the story progresses