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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

True Source Creator

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  1. Most of the Forsaken settled into important places as people of high esteem (Mesaana in the White Tower, Sammael in Illian, Graendal in Arad Domon, etc.). One thing that I've noticed recently on my re-read is that when Lanfear weaves a Gateway to her presumed hideout after speaking with Rand, she always make it to some place with white silk hangings and silver (several references, including FoH Ch. 6). Where was Lanfear hiding out when she departs to this place? Was she also impersonating some powerful lady in one of the nations?

  2. Please excuse my use of alliteration.

     

    Anyways, a lot of fights occur between the Forsaken and other characters in the novels. Some of them seem rather ridiculous and have made the Forsaken seem weaker, but today as I was re-reading The Shadow Rising, I came upon Asmodean versus Rand in Rhuidean and found it to be an intensely exciting fight, and it got me pondering what fights with the Forsaken are best or fan favorites in the series. Also, if you could remind me of all the fights between characters and Forsaken. I will list the ones I can recall.

     

    I know there's these fights, and you guys can discuss your feelings on them:

     

    1. Rand versus Aginor (Eye of the World): Pretty short, but it's the first we see of a Forsaken's destructiveness, and it's pretty cool when Aginor is floating over fire. However, the fight is brief and not really that interesting, and Aginor is made out to be a very forgettable Forsaken, much like Balthamel.

     

    2. Rand versus Ishamael/Ba'alzamon (Eye of the World): I wouldn't really consider this a fight. Rand just severs the a cord pretty much, thinking he kills Shaiton.

     

    3. Rand versus Ishamael/Ba'alzamon (The Great Hunt): Now this is a bit more interesting, but it too is pretty brief. However, the whole sky battle thing makes it rather neat. But again the briefness of it detracts from what could have been a more awesome fight.

     

    4. Rand and Moiraine versus Be'lal (The Dragon Reborn): Eh, not good really. Be'lal was such an underdeveloped character that he is by far my least favorite of the Forsaken. Plus he was so easily wiped out (of course it was a surprise, though) that it wasn't interesting at all, minus the fact that we saw the effects of balefire for one of the first times. But the fight was overshadowed by the next one on the list.

     

    5. Rand versus Ishamael/Ba'alzamon Act III (The Dragon Reborn): Finally a more compelling fight between the two. It takes them through the Stone of Tear and it ends in an interesting way: Ba'alzamon is killed and revealed to be Ishamael. This is my favorite confrontation between Rand and Ishamael, but it's not that glorious an ending for the supposedly most powerful Forsaken...although he comes back later as Moridin, and I expect some grand showdown (perhaps) in AMoL

     

    6. Rand versus Lanfear (The Shadow Rising): First time we see how powerful a female Forsaken can be. She's just toying with Rand though and we know she's not trying to kill him. All this while Trollocs are raiding the Stone and fighting against each other. The interesting thing about it is we see Lanfear reveal herself to Rand for the first time, but overall not a true "fight".

     

    7. Nynaeve versus Moghedian (The Shadow Rising): Occurs in the Panarch's Palace. It is also pretty brief and too showy at first because Moghedian just has to chat on and on about her mission like some cheesy villainous. Plus it makes her appear very weak (or maybe Nynaeve just appears very strong, or both) when she is so quickly captured. I'm not much a fan of this fight.

     

    8. Rand versus Asmodean (The Shadow Rising): Now this was, up until this point, my favorite of the Forsaken fights. The two seemed pretty equally matched, and it's the first time Rand uses Traveling. The descriptions are vivid and exciting. And Lanfear being badass and just handing Asmodean over to Rand as he suffers after Rand cut off his connection to the Dark One is fantastic.

     

    That's how far I've gotten in my re-read, but I remember most of the other fights from later books. If I'm missing any, fill them in:

     

    9. Nynaeve versus Moghedian Part Dos (The Fires of Heaven): Occurs in TAR. I remember Moghedian being wounded with an arrow by Birgitte, but Birgitte is also wounded. Later Nynaeve captures Moghedian. I don't think it's really one fight but a series of confrontations throughout the book.

     

    10. Lanfear Bitch Mode (The Fires of Heaven): Awesome, just cause I love Lanfear and seeing her pissed off was fantastic...but I was disappointed she "died" there. She's not been the same as Cyndane since. Moiraine was also pretty awesome here.

     

    11. Rand versus Rahvin (The Fires of Heaven): Perhaps the best one-on-one fight between a main character and a Forsaken in the whole series. It's very good. Rahvin kills Mat, Aviendha, and Asmodean then goes into TAR with Rand pursuing. Nynaeve and Moghedian can only watch in terror. Quite a tremendous fight.

     

    12. Rand versus Sammael (A Crown of Swords): Also a pretty good fight. Starts in Illian and culminates in a showdown in Shaidar Logoth, where Sammael gets gobbled up by Mashadar.

     

    13. Cleansing of Saidin (Winter's Heart): If it was fleshed out a bit more this would probably be the best fight in the whole series (but Dumai's Wells holds that title), but it is a good show of the Forsaken's many talents...kind of. It's just not long enough, but we get several Forsaken fighting various characters: Cyndane, Demandred, Aran'gar, Osan'gar...Moghedian's there too, and Semirhage is but she's not seen.

     

    14. Rand versus Semirhage (Knife of Dreams): Very quick so not that glorious a fight, but Semirhage does take off Rand's hand so she was pretty badass. Plus she's scary as all get out.

     

    15. Rand versus Semirhage (The Gathering Storm): Semirhage gets too cocky so I didn't like that. She pushes Rand too far. She was a good Forsaken but she got too confident, and that made me annoyed with her. However Rand going Dark Rand was pretty interesting.

     

    16. Egwene versus Mesaana (The Towers of Midnight): I've liked Mesaana for a long time, but I didn't like her end. Too talky and Egwene beating her like that was...eh, I guess. But the whole battle itself inside TAR was interesting.

  3. Sylvie was Lanfear.

    Ok, that also makes sense then. She seems to assume the role of a lot of people, and she was one of the Forsaken watching Tear (although I wonder if perhaps they all were, really, just not all physically).

     

    Also, I read somewhere that it was Semirhage's Trollocs that attacked the Stone of Tear in TSR shortly after Rand encounters Lanfear in his bedchamber, and then Lanfear's Trollocs counter Semirhage's. Is this true?

  4. I have two questions, guys. And they both concern the same subject matter.

     

    1) By The Shadow Rising, Danelle is already Mesaana, right? Danelle's first appearance is in Siuan's chambers when Elaida leads the Aes Sedai to remove the stole and evict Siuan from her position as Amyrlin Seat. I assume that Danelle is really Mesaana already then, in which case we can definitely see that the Black Ajah was behind Siuan's stilling because Mesaana herself was in the room with Alviarin and other members of the Black Ajah when Siuan was removed from her position.

     

    2) Was it Mesaana who interrogated and then killed Sahra on the farm in The Shadow Rising? I've assumed it was Mesaana since the first time I read the book, but I'm curious if it was her or one of her minions, like Alviarin.

  5. Mat and Birgitte in Towers of Midnight:

     

    ... Mat said quickly. "But, see, there's this issue."

     

    "What issue?" [birgitte]

     

    "The Tower of Ghenjei." [Mat]

     

    "That's not an issue," she said. "You stay away from it." [birgitte]

     

    "I can't." [Mat]

     

    "Of course you can. It's a flaming building, Mat. It can't exactly chase you down."

  6. After spending the past two years reading these books, with some breaks here and there and some lags through a couple of the books, I've finally finished the first thirteen books of The Wheel of Time, and it has been incredible. So naturally I'm somewhat left feeling hollow now that I don't have another Wheel of Time book to turn to, and I won't have the last one for another two years it seems (it comes out next year, though, but I won't get around to it until summer 2013). I know I've missed some things through my first read, but a lot has stuck with me, and it feels me with so much nostalgia. This has been the greatest read of my life, the most absorbing series I've ever stumbled upon. I'm pleased, because it just proves that one should never judge a book by its cover. I approached TEotW with great apprehension at first; its cover made me think it would be a cliched Medieval fantasy book too Lord of the Ringsy for its own good. But I soon learned otherwise, and have since found that the Wheel of Time trumps any other fantasy book series I've ever read, and it's also the only one I really want to read right now. It's so vivid, with great storytelling (some of it drags, though), a wide cast of interesting characters, and amazing landscapes. It really sucks me in.

     

    Having finally finished the first thirteen books, my official rankings:

     

    1. The Fires of Heaven (read June-July 2010)

    2. Lord of Chaos (read July-October 2010 --- I loved it; it just took me forever to read by my own faults)

    3. The Shadow Rising (read April-June 2010)

    4. The Great Hunt (read December 2009-January 2010)

    5. The Dragon Reborn (read February-March 2010)

    6. The Gathering Storm (read June-July 2011)

    7. Knife of Dreams (read April-June 2011)

    8. The Eye of the World (read September-October 2009)

    9. The Towers of Midnight (read July-September 2011)

    10. Winter's Heart (read December 2010-January 2011)

    11. A Crown of Swords (read October-November 2010)

    12. The Path of Daggers (read November-December 2010)

    13. Crossroads of Twilight (read March-April 2011)

     

    Eidetic memory, folks.

     

     

    Anyways, just finished ToM today, and thought it was pretty good. My biggest complaint is it had too many Perrin chapters, and while they were better than his chapters have been recently, they were still a tad boring in parts. It was supposed to be Perrin and Mat's book, since they were mostly pushed aside in TGS, but Mat got a lot less time than Perrin, and that's unfortunate, because Mat's parts were more interesting. Indeed, Perrin's chapters got incredible tedious with the Whitecloak trial, which could have been achieved at a much earlier time in the book. Too much time was spent building up to it, and it was rather boring weaving through the same wolf dreams, which I'm not really much of a fan of. Hopper's death was good, but Slayer is still not dead (right?) even after he's been defeated like two times already. That's just annoying. Plus Graendal's failure makes her survival at Natrim's Barrow kind of pointless, except as introducing the readers to what a Dreamspike is. I did enjoy the massive battle in Tel'aran'rhiod midway through the book. I was disappointed Mesaana was defeated all too easily (what a surprise...*rolls eyes*), but the battle was still good. I was disappointed that Rand was reduced to a cameo performance, even if he had a big role to play in the previous novel. The Tower of Ghenjei sequence was alright, but even though I love Moiraine so much, I do feel her coming back is kind of pointless, especially as she was the only hero of any importance to the novels to actually die, and no one cares about Jain Farstrider anyways (he's not crucial to the story). But I enjoyed the epilogue, it introduced a lot of quick but intriguing scenes. I'm especially captivated by Lanfear/Cyndane, even though I believe she's just laying a trap for Rand. I also ponder what the Aiel with the sharpened teeth were (were they perhaps the male Aiel who learned to channel and were thus sent to the Blight?). And Verin's letter was...interesting.

     

    Overall, a good book, but not as good as TGS.

  7. If there's a thread, please bump it.

     

    I know there's speculation over whether Lanfear really is pleading for Rand's help or if she is luring him into a trap. While I would love for it to be the former, in which case Meirin may be converting back to the Light, which would add great depth to her character, I suspect it's the latter. When Shaidar Haran comes to Graendal in the epilogue of Towers of Midnight, she tries defending herself by saying she can still get to Rand because he thinks her dead, but Shaidar Haran says that task has been given to someone else. It seems too coincidental then that a couple scenes later finds Rand and Lanfear (Cyndane) together, with Lanfear crying over her torment and begging for Rand's help. So it seems likely that it's just another act of villainy, in which case Lanfear is an awesome villain again (since she hasn't had any great villanious scenes as Cyndane yet, except briefly at the Battle near Shadar Logoth), but I'm still hoping she really is trying to get Rand's help, and maybe the task of killing Rand has been passed on to either Moridin (likely) or Demandred (possible).

  8. I forgot about this glaring scene until a couple months ago: Rahvin kills Asmodean, Mat, and Aviendha. I think I recall him killing Asmo, but not the other two. Then a couple months ago, I remembered the scene, or maybe I looked something up about Rahvin.

     

    Yeah, I know, how could I forget that? I'm still on my first read through. Today I finish Towers of Midnight.

  9. Ok, we all know Wheel of Time has a LOT of storylines, and some of them are pretty minor that we just completely forget about them. But do you ever, without re-reading, happen to remember something that happened and go, like, "Oh yeah! I remember that."? Well, I do. Some of you may have re-read the series so many times that nothing gets lost to you, but there are those like me who haven't read it enough to absorb almost everything in the books. I know I've forgotten quite a few things, which is one reason I'll be re-reading them for my second read through soon.

     

     

    So today I just randomly recalled Sammael and Graendal disguising themselves as two people (I forget their names) and visiting with Sevaana. I had forgotten about it, but for some reason I recalled it today.

  10. Yeah, he either works for (or is Compulsed by) Moridin or for Demandred. If the latter, then Demandred is really working on Moridin's behalf (since Moridin is Nae'blis), so by extent Taim works for (or is Compulsed to serve) Moridin. No real surprises.

  11. When Graendal is summoned to Moridin shortly after Aran'gar's death, Moridin gives her one Dreamspike, but he tells her there is another one already in use. Obviously this means one of the Forsaken is using it, and at first I was thinking that Moridin gave it to Cyndane, since I knew she would enter Rand's dreams at the end of the book (yeah, I kind of spoiled myself by accident). But then as I came to read about the Dreamspike in the Perrin chapters, I realized that's not what a Dreamspike does. So I connected the dots to what's going on at the Black Tower. The Aes Sedai stationed there, along with the Asha'man, cannot Travel in the Black Tower grounds. So, is the second Dreamspike being used on the Black Tower, and if so, is it Moridin or Demandred doing it. I'm leaning toward Demandred, with him having some form of Compulsion on Taim, since RJ denied him actually being Taim. Plus, if it is Demandred and he is using Compulsion on Taim, then Demandred himself can safely avoid being trapped inside the Dreamspike like the Asha'man.

     

    Am I on the right path? Thoughts, suggestions?

  12. I don't mind Egwene. There have been times I've even greatly enjoyed her chapters, mostly in The Gathering Storm. Her confrontation with Elaida and her secret interractions with Sitters and sisters in the Tower, especially with Silviana, were very well-handled and exciting. She has been a bland character at times, and I do not admire her rash behavior in her meeting with Rand in the White Tower, but it isn't as illogical as some have claimed. Afterall, breaking the seals would allow the Dark One to extend his influence onto the world, so it is logical that she would be afraid and reluctant to break those shields. Does she have flaws? Yes, of course. The fact that she is outpacing ever Aes Sedai after only a few months of Tower training and six months among the Wise Ones is illogical, even if Aes Sedai are most definitely flawed. She is a bit too much of a perfect little angel, but she has made some interesting contributions to the books.

  13. So far:

     

    1. Fires of Heaven

    2. Lord of Chaos

    3. The Shadow Rising

    4. The Great Hunt

    5. The Dragon Reborn

    6. The Gathering Storm

    7. Knife of Dreams

    8. The Eye of the World

    9. A Crown of Swords

    10. Winter's Heart

    11. The Path of Daggers

    12. Crossroads of Twilight

     

    Haven't finished ToM yet, but I'd probably put it above ACoS and perhaps below TEotW. I love them all so much, though, even parts of CoT.

  14. Speaking of False Dragons, I think it was a great idea for RJ to have the first sighting of a male channeler in the books be Rand seeing Logain captured in Caemlyn. It showed Rand (and the reader) just how insane male channelers were.

     

    ...well, minus the prologue to TEoTW, but that could also show the insanity of the taint on saidin.

  15. Demandred could be Mazrim Taim. Ok, yes RJ said he wasn't, but when was it that he said this? Because I have a wild theory:

     

    Taim was Taim the first few times we saw him. He had some influence from the Forsaken at that point, but he was still Taim. However, we don't see him from Winter's Heart until the end of Knife of Dreams. It was said that Demandred's proxy was not seen before KoD (or was it TGS)? So, Taim was Taim, but then by the time KoD comes, he's now dead and Demandred is masquerading as him. Bingo!

     

     

    ...I doubt this is true, but it would be cool.

  16. Well obviously people like Mesaana, Liandrin, Galina, and Moghedian deserve their punishments, as they've delivered similar punishments to people (Moghedian sent many people to be mindtrapped) and have done other heinous acts. But they still suffer horrible fates, even if they are deserved. I like that most of them are actually ironic (e.g. Liandrin getting collared as a damane after sending Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne to such a fate a few books earlier; and Elaida being captured by the Seanchan).

  17. What I just thought about... Maybe Moridin already turned to the light, because of the bond he has with Rand, and what happened to Rand in VoG. We haven't seen Moridin in ToM, have we? But I don't like that as much as I would like what I wrote above.

    Moridin is in ToM. He gives Graendal a Dreamspike and shows her the Dark prophecies (whatever those are).

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