1. Rand al'Thor. His evolution throughout the series is nothing short of astonishing. I did not like Rand at first - to me, he was just an uninteresting country bumpkin, maybe even a bit of a simpleton. But then he rises, and goes through it all - denial, pain, anger, darkness, madness, the lot. And he never turns back. He shoulders his responsibility as the Dragon Reborn like it or not, and day by day turns into a smart, powerful, dangerous man. He is even more amazing post VoG. I can't think of a single better hero in any book I've read.

2. Moiraine Damodred. It's been said by someone else - she's the ultimate mysterious, beautiful, powerful, wise, clever, selfless, driven woman. Moiraine has no flaw.

3. Lanfear. Guess what? She's also the ultimate mysterious, beautiful, powerful woman. Except she plays on the dark side, and so is driven and selfish, clever and foolish - as in passionate. I love her interaction with Rand/LTT, I enjoy never quite knowing whether she loves him or not. I also love her as a temptress, coming into the 3 ta'veren's dreams with promises of glory. It's a shame she's been reborn as such a weak character as Cyndane.

4. Perrin Aybara. Thoughtful, quiet and strong. He does take a long time to accept his role as leader, but he does. Even before he does, he's still doing OK. I also like his relationship with Faile - they do work together. And of course the wolves.

5. Nynaeve al'Meara. Full of passion, and anger, and harsh words, but also full of love and care and kindess. More than any other character she stays true to herself. She is also hilarious, which is good - I remember actually laughing out loud at some of Nynaeve's antics

6. Matrim Cauthon. As with Rand, I used not to like Mat at all (stupid country bumpkin syndrome, and Mat seemed especially stupid - as in foolish and irresponsible), but he also grows up with time. He stays fun, but his loyalty also shines through, and gradually he becomes a much better man than he lets on, reliable in spite of himself.

7. Aviendha. Fiery, independent, capable and strong, I enjoyed her "I love you but I don't" bit with Rand, and her tumultuous rise from Far Dareis Mai to Wise One. Also, I love Aiel. Sadly we don't see that much of Aviendha as the story unfolds.

8. Galad Damodred. He's a great character, strong, loyal, good to a fault, smart and steadfast. He's been written in a very interesting way as well - much maligned by Gawyn and Elayne for a very long time, with his own PoV only finally revealed in KoD, where he turns out to be very caring as well.

9. Verin Mathwin. A very unique character, I enjoyed her final showdown with Egwene.

10. Davram Bashere and Rodel Ituralde. Yup, I'll cheat and name two - it's too much of a toss-up here, they are both great military men.

Androl might make this list depending on AMoL, I really liked the little we've seen of him in ToM.

God... I do think that Pocket edition of the very first book takes the cake by a mile. I mean... buttcheeks... who wants to read a series that starts with buttcheeks!? Apart from that, it looks to me to be more of an SF cover than fantasy...

But you could have the best of both worlds and be in your bed (in the car), with a cold beer (from the esky) and whatever treats you've packed with you, camping in the Aussie wilderness, and reading WoT !

The French covers are so bad they make me want to light myself on fire.

It is widely believed a high percentage of French fantasy readers have experienced an above-average rate of 3rd degree burns. Coincidence? I think not, Mr Watson!

@Demiandre, thanks I have to admit WoT gets even better when you read it all by yourself in the Australian wilderness

I will only say - would it be such a bad thing if Dyelin had secured the throne? I think not. The woman is much wiser and sharper than Elayne. Although Elayne does have the advantage of being a bigger part of whatever's happening through her connections to Rand and the gang.

Oh yes indeed, I heard of you, and read a lot of your post (long time lurking during the slowing of the forum) and you indeed seem to have a reputation for arguing and stuborness :)

 

It's strange to speak english on an english forum with a french who also was on the Stone :D

Yeah, a little bit, but these guys might get confused if we revert to good old French

I've always been headstrong stubborn as a mule (probably always will be, let's face it) but I got carried away a hell of a lot more when I was younger (not that I'm old or wise now...). Oh well. We all *facepalm* when looking back to who we used to be at one point Don't know if you've seen them while lurking, but I did have fun writing those "papers" about Galad and Elayne, although I clearly needed to lay off the insults

My nickname was Stefanof. I've got a pretty crappy memory but I think I might have gotten myself into too many arguments back then (I used to be very headstrong ). It was a pretty good community though, I've had a little lurk around a little while ago when ToM came out, checked out what everyone was thinking, etc... :)

Yup, I'm French. I used to be on Pierre de Tear a long time ago... Can't possibly imagine the new translator is worse that Arlette, May She Live Forever (), but I've got to say I haven't really wanted to know anything about the French books since TFoH...

We have the book published, yes, but with a bad translation, and we had Knife of Dream this month. Two days ago if I'm not mistaken. And with twice as much books.

The French edition is indeed a disgrace. Thank God we can read it in English. The translation is so bad I even remember one of the French books glossaries saying Tam al'Thor used to be a freaking Warder. What the heck?

I understand, but again, I must insist: to my understanding, WoT society at large has been the same since the Breaking. And old habits die hard, as they say. So, I've always thought that one of RJ's underlying messages in the story was how stupid human nature can be, at times. "We may be at the brink of destruction at the hands of a terrible alien force, such as the DO, but we still have to bicker and squabble amongst ourselves" lol!

You hit the nail right on the head there. I think this is definitely true, and (sadly) very realistic as well. At the end of the day, this attitude is just part of human nature, and the fact it's such an underlying theme in WoT goes a long way towards making it believable as well as maybe different than simpler epics. WoT's characters and interaction have always been flawed (not only bickering, but also lack of communication for example) and probably always will be. It's just the way it is, heh!

I also think you've got a very good point on the difference between Perrin and Egwene in regards to the weight of tradition. This would be a major influence on pretty much anyone - especially as the Amyrlin, no matter how influenced by or free from tradition, would have to at least make a show of pandering to it in order to maintain control of the WT and keep the Ajahs happy. Even more so someone like Egwene who is young and was raised by Rebels. There have already been many "irregularities" (as AS would say) in Egwene's rise to power and opinion, at the moment I don't think she could afford to completely break away from traditional patterns.

 

My point was only that I don't see Egwene taking them into consideration for better or worse. She doesn't seem to include them amongst channelers, the way she does with Wise Ones, Sea Folk, Kinswomen, etc. IMO, real progressive thinking would include both halves of the Source (I guess this is why Jordan used the symbol of the Yin/Yang for the Aes Sedai, to illustrate this need for balance, precisely).

 

So, all I'd like to see is Egwene laying the groundwork for a potential fusion in the future, starting by doing away with those ancient prejudices that infest those under her command, at least. Leave the rest up to Rand.

Agreed.

Though we know Egwene sees Rand and how far she is from seeing him for what he truly is (a far more powerful and wiser channeler than her, regardless of gender), let alone see him as an equal. And herein lies the problem, IMO. If the head's infected, then surely, the rest of the body will follow.

Although I don't agree with Egwene's opinion and treatment of Rand, I understand where she's coming from. Rand HAS been growing insane, paranoid, arrogant. He HAS been affected by the taint. He HAS turned himself into a cold, angry, insensitive leader. This is where Egwene is coming from. She's worried, understandably so. Nynaeve knows better because she's been spending a lot of time with him; Egwene hasn't. IMHO it's normal for Egwene to need a bit more time and evidence before she can revise her opinion on Rand. To do otherwise would only make Egwene as rash and foolish as Elayne. I also think Egwene might make herself a little harder than need be because she must be wary of the friendship she may still feel deep down inside for Rand. And she wants make decisions with her objective mind, not subjective feelings (doesn't mean she's not biased, just that she's trying to take everything into account - sometimes successfully, sometimes misguidedly).

As for Egwene's progression compared to Perrin, I must disagree. It's been a while since Egwene was raised by the Rebels and that, along with Siuan's tutelage (I totally agree w/u on this one), should be more than enough to make a good leader out of her by this point, IMO.

 

Especially, after all she had to overcome after Elaida tried to break her. She did grow a lot and the way she handled herself did earn her lots of points, IMO, though her stance concerning other issues (such as Rand) definitely took those points back.

She's been raised as Rebel Amyrlin for a while, yes, but I think that was still a few steps removed from being raised as proper Amyrlin of the White Tower. She was only the half-accepted leader of a small group of sisters. It's only very recently she has acquired full leadership, so she has a lot more to learn and experience about it. I think Egwene is a mixed bag of good and bad points, but so far to me the good outweighs the bad. Agree to disagree?

Still, there's no comparison between Elayne and Egwene in my book. Egwene saved the White Tower from the Seanchan and is unifying it, whereas Elayne split Andor apart and send it to war, weakening her country big time in light of Tarmon Gai'don, instead of strengthening it.

 

IMO, she should've swallowed her pride, taken the throne when Rand offered it and included all of her politicking as part of her plans for the future, precisely. Keep the stability and order the way Rand had done it (personally, I can't see the difference between her hiring sellswords, as opposed to keeping an Aiel guard in place, like Rand did, since both aren't exactly loyal Andorian Queensguards) and worry about securing your rule later.

I think Elayne had a point by wanting to take the throne herself - otherwise she would just be seen as Rand's puppet, without any backbone or authority of her own. I don't think she would get much respect then, and that could lead to major issues about her leadership once TG is past and the DR is gone. So on that front, I think she made a difficult decision, that lead to a big mess, but was probably the right decision.

That's all I'll say in favor of Elayne. In all other respects, she's a great one to botch up the job, make bad decisions and continuously repeat the same mistakes.

In regards to the theory of "one task at a time, present first" I agree with the sentiment, but I do think some measure of thought and planning should still be given to the future. If you wait until the last minute, it's going to be much harder to put anything in place, and you might completely miss your chance. In that sense, I think Eg & El are right to split their focus a bit. They should just pay attention not to get too carried away with it (which IMHO is a bigger risk with Elayne).

100% agree with you that Egwene should revise her opinion of male channelers and allow them to become Aes Sedai again. However, I don't think this is very likely in the current world. The situation is very different than from the AoL, not just because of past taint on saidin, but because a Black Tower has been established, and male channelers call themselves Ashaman. As a consequence, I don't know that male channelers would be any keener to join the AS than the WT is to recruit them. Nonetheless, Eg should be thinking about trying to unite them, even if it fails. However, you may also say that it's pretty normal for her to be wary of Ashaman considering what's happening in the BT right now... so far, male channelers haven't exactly proved their trustworthiness (apart from a few isolated cases that are out of BT influence such as Grady with Perrin).

Also agree Perrin is an excellent leader. He is wise, well-balanced and steadfast, a lot more so than women leaders so far. But he did need A LOT of time before he reached that stage. Egwene hasn't been in true power for that long yet, but she's been progressing by leaps and bounds as well I think. Perrin has also benefited a lot from his relationship with Faile, which cannot be said of Eg and her relationship with Gawyn... (thank God she had Siuan at least!).

I wouldn't be so harsh on them in that regard, though. I think there is a fair point in the fact that the Dragon Reborn is in charge of leading and hopefully winning the Last Battle, but other rulers MUST be concerned about life post Tarmon Gaidon. If no one worries about it, well... complete chaos will ensue. It's a balance. Winning TG is obviously number one on the list as otherwise the world will be destroyed, but making sure the victory is not an empty one (as in DO is disposed of but world sinks in chaos due to leadership breaking up and no plan being made by any rulers, leading to civil war, more deaths, etc) is a huge number 2. Rand's focus should be entirely on TG (although I'm sure even he is sparing a thought for the aftermath), but the Amyrlin's or the Queen's should be also on the future. They do need to take care of the world post TG and DR.

What bothers me more about Elayne is that her concerns for the future sound a lot more power hungry and self centered to me for reasons mentioned above, not to mention /ToM spoilers/ wanting to monopolize use of gateways and the Kin for example. She does look guilty when the Kin mentions this could mean she would be the only ruler able to send armies anywhere, Heal them instantly, etc./end spoiler/

In comparison, Egwene's concerns seem more constructive and positive to me as in sharing of training across cultural borders, strengthening everyone in the process. Of course her idea is to try to keep the upper hand for the AS (and fair enough, it's her organisation), but in practice I do believe EVERYONE will benefit from this. I don't think she wants to add fuel to the fire - she wants to unite, as she has worked to unite the White Tower already. Of course uniting can be dangerous (no ruler should gather too much power/influence), but the intent and the potential results don't seem anywhere near as bad as Elayne's plans to me.

I'd say they are similar in the sense that both have made it their priorities to make their queendom/tower the number one seat of power in the world, but Egwene's methods seem a lot smarter/healthier to me. It feels to me that Elayne is trying to rule by division and power mongering, whereas Egwene is trying to rule by uniting and spreading the knowledge/power. Elayne is all about closing down, Egwene opening up.

Elayne, by way of comparison, makes ruthless moves as well, and gathers power, but her thought process' seems to have the Last Battle first in her mind, where as Egwene's thoughts are for the Tower first and foremost, and then for the battle second and the world third.

I'll step into the ToM spoilers (highlight to read): I don't think Elayne is any less self-centered. Andor definitely seems to come first and foremost when she wants to keep Aludra's dragons all to herself, get authority over Mat and his Band and is just about ready to wage war on Perrin to get the Two Rivers back under full Andoran control. Not to mention the fact she actually contemplated sending MAT and his band to wage that particular fight against "Lord Goldeneyes"!/end spoiler

To me, none of this seem to be the actions/thoughts of a ruler that is dedicated to the Last Battle first and foremost. They are, however, thoughts/action that are dangerously close to power hungry, not to mention a tad cruel & insensitive on the last point.

I know most people would frown at me for saying these things, but I kinda like Elayne.

 

Shure, she is a bit of an arrogant snooty kid at times whos expecting everything to be done according to her wishes...

But dosent that kinda come with being the heir to Andor? I mean, looking at how a typical European medival princess would act in her situation... Its not absurd... Of course its a fictional person in a fictive setting, and as such its very different from "real life" for the sake of writeing a good story... But it adds a layer of realism to her personallity... So to speak.

Yes. But her stupidity being realistic/believable doesn't detract from the fact that she is, indeed, how of the most consistently dumb and annoying people in Randland!

Rand has had plenty of really stupid moments. I like him, but that's a fact. Leaving the Black Tower in total control of a guy he met 5 minutes before and not doing anything for so long to check up on him despite the numerous clues he had that something fishy is going on, is probably the most blatant one.

Agreed. Rand can be stupid/blind (same as anyone else really), but he can also be very clever, brave, powerful. I mean, the man's conquered half the world, cleansed saidin and disposed of a few Forsaken along the way. Not bad going for a humble sheepherder. I think the fact that Rand makes mistakes is a very good part of his character, it makes him more believable and more human, and also serves to demonstrate that being the Dragon Reborn ain't that easy.

Elayne - pretentious, rash, foolish and hateful. Many characters make half-baked plans to tackle the Shadow, but Elayne seems to go one step further by making no plans. She just keeps putting herself in extremely dangerous situations in the very arrogant belief that she can't lose / be wrong, then causes pain and deaths as others end up having to rescue her. And then she does it all over again. She is also very biased in her treatment of others (hates Galad's guts for no reason, walks all over Mat, etc). Not to mention creepy with her past crush on grandfatherly Thom.

Gawyn - pretentious, rash, foolish and hateful. Must run in the family! He is not as "in your face" as his sister, but he is very self-righteous and has a knack for making humongous mistakes. I'm sure Gawyn is a nice guy and all, but he has incredibly poor judgment. It's also sickening to watch him follow Elayne then Egwene around as if he was nothing but a little needy puppy dog. Gawyn lacks a backbone. And needs a life.

Cadsuane and the Athan Miere - arrogant. We had plenty of powerful, arrogant characters and orders in Randland already. Adding Cads and the AM, who are even MORE arrogant, just annoyed the hell out of me. Their treatment of others is very frustrating.

Elaida - well, at least she's supposed to be hated as she's one of the baddies. But boy, is the woman stupid, self-centered and blind!

Lews Therin Telamon - whine whine whine. I understand that to a degree considering how his life ended, but it gets wearying. Especially as when not whining about Ilyena, he's whistling to himself perving on pretty girls around Rand. Pick a side mate. I don't exactly hate him as (thankfully) we don't see too much of him, but he does annoy me.

Anyway, nothing original there, those characters seem to generate a lot of hate. I do however like Egwene - I don't agree with everything she thinks or does, but she's got good things going for her as well and has definitely scored major badass points lately.