Oh man imagine having MR x as a boss. would be freakin nightmare for anyone. Dude just chill out

Thats probably true ;), I am an engineer and would hate to become the boss who has to deal with fools all the time

Earn 2 points for flippin' it

 

 

 

 

He need not even have let her know before breaking the seals,she would be none the wiser.

Did the whole finding out the the seals had to be broken at a specific moment in that old book and Egwene giving the order to Logain to break them just go totally over your head? Brandon has already said Moraine had to show up so that Rand and Egwene worked together on that or all would have been lost. Rand had to be convinced to wait and Egwene had to be totally convinced to break them.

 

I get the distinct impression that criticism of Egwene isn't welcome here.....

 

Ha. Go to the general forum and search her name. You will find thread after thread dedicated to that pass time. The problem as I stated early on in this thread as it quickly turns into unrealistic bashing that takes away from rational discourse on the topic. You know statements like.

 

I state unequivocally that Egwene does NOTHING for the greater good.

Another problem is you keep referring to your "careful reading" that has somehow granted you true insight to her character. But then later after getting details wrong(which goes back to your first posts on the topic)you admit that "I'll just have to accept my WoT deficiencies". Many of us actually really enjoy discussing this topic. The extremist views on both sides unfortunately send it off the rails all too often.

EDIT: I had a really nice response but I got browser diverted and now it is gone..... Sad.... No time to reconstruct; sorry, but there was no bombast or displays of WOT deficiencies, just so you know..... The last line was "How readers cannot see these traits in her, is utterly bizarre...." It really was a good post.....

I thought the "Oh No!! The Shadow stole the Seals!!!" was a cheesy, unnecessary diversion.

 

 

 

While I agree with most of your points, I would say that there are a few more examples of this:

 

Can you show me the PoV of someone she treated "badly" who thinks she actually does so, and does so out of spite? One person?

I know its been debated on here a lot, but a lot of people think she treats Nyneave pretty badly in that scene in TAR where she has Nyn chased by thugs. Additionally, I would argue that she treats Gawyn, some of the Aes Sedai, and Rand with a complete lack of respect, which I would say fits under the envelope of treating them badly. True, Rand doesn't treat her with much respect either, but that just means they both treat each other badly, not that they cancel out each other's bad behaviour.

Rand does not need to defer to anyone .He is the Dragon.Egwene forgets her place many times in the book.

 

As he said in AMOL,Egwene just has the title of the watcher of seals.she does not have them.She lost them too bad.He need not even have let her know before breaking the seals,she would be none the wiser.I really wished to see how Egwene would have stopped Rand from breaking the seals as she treatens if Moraine had not showed up.

She did not lose the seals. Rand lost them. And seriously? He need not have let her or anyone know? Just because he is the prophesized saviour doesn't mean he's going to save the world by doing shit, which includes doing the right thing at the wrong time. And she was right in trying to prevent him from doing it at the time.

 

And Rand is not defering to her in giving her position or title a measure of respect. You don't earn the respect of a subordinate by treating them like shit anyway.

Post tGS Rand makes a point of deferring to others, as a way to "spread the love" and repair his insane tyrannical behavior. And, yeah: Rand lost the Seals here, but the White Tower lost track of them thousand(s??) of years ago.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(POV ruminations don't count)

why ???

 

POV's ruminations don't count in the real world ( as noone can really know what's in another's brain ) but it's a book man , POVs ruminations are a way for the author to make us understand the character ... you will never understand truly a character ( Egwene or another one ) if you read only half what the authors writes about it ...

POV

 

Point-of-View (POV) narration is an effective way to tell a story, but it should be said over and over that POV is a CHARACTER'S perception of the world. It is THEIR opinions about a situation, and THEIR inner dialogue. Therefore, it is laden with THEIR bias, THEIR worldview, and constrained by THEIR limited information...

Very true. But you can't flat out ignore plain statements. If a character thinks in their head, "I am doing this for this reason", you can't say that they're actually doing this for a totally different reason that's a secret conspiracy so well planned that even their own conscious brain isn't aware of it.

This is why the issue of Egwene al'Vere becomes so heated: one side takes her POV's at face value, adopts her struggles as their own, and then feels offended if anyone points out the obvious, awful and hypocritical things she actually does. The first six books establish her nature; the next eight let her run free. Without a doubt, she feels that she's "uniting the Tower for the Last Battle".... In another POV, an intimate view into her feelings for Gawyn, she identifies with the Green Ajah because she secretly wants to marry her Warder.

Except she picked the Green long before she wanted to marry him, and when told that to be Green is to love men, refused that surface reading of the Ajah and asked for its deepest ethos, and identified with it... Its Elayne who decided on the Green primarily because she wanted two Warders.

Thus we are left with the impressions of her noble clarity and Aes Sedai purpose vis a vis the Last Battle, and the affection and love she feels for Gawyn, all because of her POV. Of course, no other ruler in Randland demands an oath of absolute obedience from their husband;

Have you heard of the Queen of Andor?

no other Aes Sedai requires utter fealty from their Warder.

Except Elayne rues the fact she didn't ask Brigette to swear such oaths as other AS make their Warders do. Like Lan did to Moiraine, and unlike Egwene who never asked Gawyn to formally sweat fealty to her... Yes, I'm seeing what "no bias" means, here.

But Egwene requires these submissions from Gawyn. Does she "love" Gawyn? Well, her POV says she does, so I guess the extreme requirements she makes on him are okay. Not aberrant in the least... *snicker-snicker*

Lets ask Gawyn, eh, who can feel what she feels for him through the bond?

Her reflexive behaviors and dismissive attitudes to the Dragon Reborn himself, the very "cat and meow" of the Last Battle, cause a careful reader to say: "Huh? Why is she acting like that? Didn't her POV proclaim her noble, selfless intention to unite the Tower and fight in the Last Battle? Yeah, I can see that she's got issues with breaking the Seals and all, but why is she dealing with him from a position of mistrust and opposition?

Because Rand gave people plenty of reasons to mistrust him. Not least his, "I'm going to break the Seals, tata!" shenanigan. That may have been a good political move, but lets not pretend it was designed to engender trust. Imagine for a minute if Rand had handled this differently. Say he asked her for a private meeting, and there told her he had been driven to near madness, and now he was out of it. When Egwene said she wanted to make sure by having an AS delve him, he said yes, and let them sense the patina of light around his brain. Then gave some proof of his memories of LTT, and after having convinced Egwene of these things, he told her that he was convinced he needed to break the Seals, based on his own knowledge and what Herid Fel told him. Do you think things would have gone down the same way?

I guess as a careful reader, I have more information than Egwene, so I guess I can understand why she has doubts.... But hey!! Wait a minute!! She ALWAYS TRATS RAND LIKE CRAP !

Yeah, no. She doesn't.

And come to think of it, she has a pattern of treating lots of people poorly, even though when I read her POV, she doesn't think she's behaving badly, so, maybe, she's as awesome as everyone says...."

Can you show me the PoV of someone she treated "badly" who thinks she actually does so, and does so out of spite? One person? I can name one... Mat, over the Tear incident. For which she more than made up by revealing the Finn Doorway to him. Rand is certainly suspicious of her being close to the Wise Ones, but as we see from what she does with them, working against him is far from her plan.

POV descriptions have inherent bias, and without looking at a character in total and seeing how they move through the world, it is soooooo easy to accept their POV at face value. This is why reliance on quoting the book instead of clear synthesis is lazy. NEVER accept the bias of a character as proof.

But never ignore their PoV either. You can't remove the context of their thoughts, and then claim your evidence is without bias.

I agree with all you say re: POV. My intent was merely to point out the inherent bias' and the ease of adopting those views. It's the proverbial POV trap, right? [side note: The other day a colleague recommended I check out readandfindout[dot]com. Lo and behold!! It felt like the heavens cracked open and all of my suspicions about Egwene al'Vere were finally explained!!! Seriously, that Cannoli guy is sharp and accurate... Is there anything like that on Dragonmount? I get the distinct impression that criticism of Egwene isn't welcome here.....]

I honestly didn't know that the Queen of Andor required an oath of obedience from her husband. And I always thought that the Warder bond was less about swearing obedience and more about service. Ah, well: I don't have another re-read in me, so I'll just have to accept my WOT deficiencies. Still, it was difficult to comprehend the nuances of the Egwene/Gawyn love affair in ToM, so I just accepted that they "loved" each other, because that's what we were told. Maybe I'm tired but I thought she required him to swear obedience as part of the package? it stood out as strange, because I couldn't (and can't, really) recall any examples of that between husband and wife, nor among the AS/Warder.New Spring is pretty hazy for me, but if Lan swore to Morraine, I guess that sets precedence. Agh: too nuanced for me: I'm just a simple man and it seems plain strange to require obedience from your lover/partner/mate, regardless of Andoran law or arcane Aes Sedai practices. Unless you're into that kinky stuff or feel compelled to bend people to your will.....

I have often imagined how differently things could have been throughout WOT if characters simply acted like normal 21st century people and, you know, actually sat down and conversated. Indeed, the major plot developments could have been thoroughly taken care of by volume 8 and the world thoroughly united towards the LB by number 9..... Alas, WOT rarely follows the most obvious solution....

Re: showing you a POV concerning an Egwene victim: Your use of the word "spite" is interesting, because Egwene never seemed "spiteful" to me; calculating and ruthless, sure, but not spiteful. Actually, besides her rabid hatred of the Seanchan, she doesn't carry around "spite" for anyone. Indeed, all of the post-LoC POVs concerning Egwene, the speaker seems to display a grudging respect for her political acumen and steadfast character.....

Neverthess, my mind went right to the various Salidar AS et al who wound up swearing fealty to Egwene (which, of course, is against Tower law and a major point of outrage when Elaida did it, but, whatever...)..... Not really sure if we saw any POV from them, because, you know, 3rd, 4th or 5th tier characters are rarely given POVs, especially ones distant from circles of influence. We can only wonder if the general opinion of Egwene decreases in proportion to the distance from the core of her power and the main story thread. :)

The issue of her telling Mat about the doorway could be quickly explained by invoking "It Was The Will Of The Pattern!" I went back and re-read that part in tSR. It's from her POV so we see her emotions careen from exasperation, to honest concern, to thick prejudice to pity. She certainly has a low opinion of Mat, through. i lean towards the "RJordan needed to get Mat through the doorway in order for his story arc to move forward and there was nobody else to give him that specific information except Egwene" opinion, because it is unclear from the book why she actually told him.

I don't remember Mat's POV complaining about Egwene's treatment, but I do remember he was displeased that neither Elayne, Egwene nor Nyanaeve expressed a shred of gratitude for his help in the Stone of Tear incident. Even Aviendha agreed it was a legitimate beef. Ji'e'toh has to come from within, however, and if Egwene doesn't feel the toh, ya can't force it.... Don't really think it works on a credit system either, but if her telling him about the doorway "more than makes up" for an egregious lack of of grace and humility, I'll let you go your own way with it.

Edit: spelling/clarity

 

 

 

 

 

(POV ruminations don't count)

 

 

why ???

 

POV's ruminations don't count in the real world ( as noone can really know what's in another's brain ) but it's a book man , POVs ruminations are a way for the author to make us understand the character ... you will never understand truly a character ( Egwene or another one ) if you read only half what the authors writes about it ...

POV

Point-of-View (POV) narration is an effective way to tell a story, but it should be said over and over that POV is a CHARACTER'S perception of the world. It is THEIR opinions about a situation, and THEIR inner dialogue. Therefore, it is laden with THEIR bias, THEIR worldview, and constrained by THEIR limited information...

This is why the issue of Egwene al'Vere becomes so heated: one side takes her POV's at face value, adopts her struggles as their own, and then feels offended if anyone points out the obvious, awful and hypocritical things she actually does. The first six books establish her nature; the next eight let her run free. Without a doubt, she feels that she's "uniting the Tower for the Last Battle".... In another POV, an intimate view into her feelings for Gawyn, she identifies with the Green Ajah because she secretly wants to marry her Warder. Thus we are left with the impressions of her noble clarity and Aes Sedai purpose vis a vis the Last Battle, and the affection and love she feels for Gawyn, all because of her POV. Of course, no other ruler in Randland demands an oath of absolute obedience from their husband; no other Aes Sedai requires utter fealty from their Warder. But Egwene requires these submissions from Gawyn. Does she "love" Gawyn? Well, her POV says she does, so I guess the extreme requirements she makes on him are okay. Not aberrant in the least... *snicker-snicker*

Her reflexive behaviors and dismissive attitudes to the Dragon Reborn himself, the very "cat and meow" of the Last Battle, cause a careful reader to say: "Huh? Why is she acting like that? Didn't her POV proclaim her noble, selfless intention to unite the Tower and fight in the Last Battle? Yeah, I can see that she's got issues with breaking the Seals and all, but why is she dealing with him from a position of mistrust and opposition? I guess as a careful reader, I have more information than Egwene, so I guess I can understand why she has doubts.... But hey!! Wait a minute!! She ALWAYS TRATS RAND LIKE CRAP ! And come to think of it, she has a pattern of treating lots of people poorly, even though when I read her POV, she doesn't think she's behaving badly, so, maybe, she's as awesome as everyone says...."

POV descriptions have inherent bias, and without looking at a character in total and seeing how they move through the world, it is soooooo easy to accept their POV at face value. This is why reliance on quoting the book instead of clear synthesis is lazy. NEVER accept the bias of a character as proof.

**this is submitted somewhat tongue- in-cheek. To be clear, I am not denying the salient details of the story: yes, Egwene united the Tower and did amazing things. Yes, her Crystal Pillar of Death in the Last Battle killed lots of bad people and aided the Light....

Honestly, I would have loved this series to have stretched for 20 novels, or even 30..... I would have had no problem reading the final book when I was 80....... Spending the past 13 years immersed in Randland has given me great pleasure...... Alas, Brother Jordan (RIP) was called away and although I have great appreciation for Brandon Sanderson, he is no Jordan, and I will always have an emptiness for "white might have been".....

Brandon Sanderson! Thanks for accepting this and having the guts to finish! We were watching very closely and "you did well".....

Anyhow, I was utterly thrilled with this final book, but also kind of let down!! The pacing was good, the story never lagged, the battles were evocative, if a little tedious.. Morraine was certainly not given the respect due such a structural character..... And what's with Bela's death? Really?!? Paidan Fain relegated to the last 15 pages and finished without much drama? Lots of things like that bugged me: Flat characters. Story lines concluded but without much impact. Dropping new things in (Sharans, crystalline antibalefire,) that just felt like fuel for plot movement. And given the immense emotional investment I have poured in, I would have liked to have seen celebrations and reactions from people as they breathed in the new Age, as Mat returning to the Seanchan and the repopulation after the hundreds of thousands killed. What ever happened with The Return, anyhow? I wanted to feel people's joy of renewal, of planting crops and feeling the joy of sunshine and life spreading through the land. Maybe seeing a year or three into the future, because, dammit, it's a place and story that I care about! It feels kind of cruel after years of Read And Find Out, an extra 10 pages couldn't be written about how the world reacts and adapts and continues on.

Make no mistake: I LOVED THIS BOOK. It worked so perfectly on many many levels: The emotions of the Last Battle caught me up, and I wept like a baby as Tam lighted Rand's pyre. The final words of the story reminded me why I love the WoT..... *Sigh* I am really gonna miss this......

EDIT: spelling / clarity

 

Wait are you trying to claim Ishy didn't start the BA? They were targeted by the shadow. The BA was started centuries ago by Ishy during one of the intervals that he was loose from the bore. The WT was the premiere power and as such Ishy made it a mission to infiltrate from the inside. AS can not be held accountable for his actions.

I did NOT claim that..... Ishy had an enormous influence on events of the 3rd Age.... Was the WT "responsible" for creating the BA?... No.... We're they responsible for letting fester and spread? Absolutely... They were so terrified and willfully blind, they couldn't even admit the BA's existence to each other until the Tower was near to breaking..... We're they the best institution in the 3rd Age to stand against the Shadow? Without question or doubt........

Please don't tell me I'm "looking at things wrong". It is a common vibe I get from your replies and it is unnecessary.

The main point I was trying to make is that there is not much evidence of the AS working in society itself. A few sentences here and there an epic 14 novels series is simply unfulfilling to me. As I said earlier, no mention was made of AS using the Power to enhance crops or help preserve food stores for the winter or create Power-forged tools or educate the children or simply integrate into the world at large. Quibbling about percentages and rotations out of the Tower doesn't change deficiency for me.

And, yes, different countries have different openness to AS//WT, but are reminded thousands of that they have their own agenda and you gotta watch where you put your foot.

EDIT: attempt to correct Quote format

The Black Ajah had existed for centuries. The corruption by the time of Gitara was systemic and institutional, the results of which we saw for 13 novels.

If 1/3 were out in the world, 2/3 never left Tar Valon.... Not really a good ratio. Without question, the 33% were out doing all that stuff you rightly cite.....yet over and over we are told the Aes Sedai reasons are not what you think they are"; "don't let an AesSedai tie a string around you"; "manipulating events"; etc......ALLrulers stepped carefully around them, and EVERYONE treated them with the sort of trepidation given to a Mafia member...... This perception/reaction is repeated time after time, in book after book.

^^^

 

indeed what have they done? nothing. without the aes sedai, tamra and gitara in particular the dragon reborn would have been in the hands of blak ajah.

 

But hey whatever you say :p

Which from another angle, proves the point that the WT was wretched: Upon Gitara's Fortelljng, there was NOONE they could trust, because of the Black Ajah's seamless intergration into the WT and the extreme prejudice against male channelers.

I think the rhetorical question of "what have they done?" is importan. Without a doubt they provided authority and stability throughout the pre-industrial 3rd Age; without question they preserved memory of the DarkOne and held shit together until the Dragon was reborn...... But they were widely viewed as dangerous, manipulative and tricksome, which I personally don't find to be admirable qualities. Heck, even backwater hicks from the Two Rivers knew watch themselves around AS; it wasnt a matter of showing respect, either.

the 2nd Age As were True Sevents, but the 3rdAge were definately not. There is no evidence they helped grow food and crops (only personal gardens) or orchards proliferate. There's is little mention of them hanging out with common people, and none about them teaching children history or philosophy Did they make Power-forged tools for farmers and craftsmen? Transcribe and distribute books and knowledge? ..... I dunno.... Just idle thought that have nothing to do with Egwene.......

,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Perrin didn't want to ride; he told her so and she insisted and wore him down..... Not altruistic: further proof of her horrible nature

...what

 

 

 

tEotW, pp333, POV Perrin

"From the start Perrin knew the jiurney to Caenlyn was going to be far from comfortable, beginning with Egwene's insistence that they take turns riding Bela,.... Her jaw firmed, and her eyes stated at him unblinking."

 

Continue on for her standard brow beating and coercion.

 

"....bullied him in to the saddle....."

 

It should be known that Perrin didn't want to ride because he was concerned about his weight and Bela's endurance.. So i guess we have found ANOTHER EXAMPLE of Egwene's awefulness. She didn't even think about her hourse..

 

 

 

 

Yeah, okay then.

 

Egwene had to force Perrin into the saddle because he was insistent on bearing more of the load than he should. On the converse, Perrin was also forcing Egwene into the saddle. That blade cuts both ways.

 

The complaint about Bela is, as far as i can tell, not even mentioned in the book, and doesn't become an issue (Bela is never the reason they are moving too slowly). So even if that complaint is in the book, it doesn't hold water.

 

How in the holy hell this scene can be used as proof that Egwene is a self-involved narcissist is absolutely  mindblowing. I really don't know what to say.

I just read that part: (pp333-4) where does it say Perrin was insistant on bearing more of the load? It doesn't. It's Perrin's POV and his over riding concern is his physical size and the strain on the horse. Yes, he says this to Egwene. No, she doesn't care. it is a legitimate concern, given they have a looooooong way to go to reach Caemlyn. Whether Bela is slow or quick is irrelevant. She was concerned about making him do what she wanted.

She is a self involved narcissist because she repeats behavior like this over and over and over. I posted this because somebody claimed letting Perrin ride was an act of altruism when it is clearly not. Sorry....

It was that one character beat that made love Elyas:"I said 'No', girl."

She's nice to Elays until she discovers he cant by manipulated or teach her to talk with wolves. After that, she's pretty aloof. "Nothing to be gained; he is irrelevant."

 

 

Perrin didn't want to ride; he told her so and she insisted and wore him down..... Not altruistic: further proof of her horrible nature

...what

tEotW, pp333, POV Perrin

"From the start Perrin knew the jiurney to Caenlyn was going to be far from comfortable, beginning with Egwene's insistence that they take turns riding Bela,.... Her jaw firmed, and her eyes stated at him unblinking."

Continue on for her standard brow beating and coercion.

"....bullied him in to the saddle....."

It should be known that Perrin didn't want to ride because he was concerned about his weight and Bela's endurance.. So i guess we have found ANOTHER EXAMPLE of Egwene's awefulness. She didn't even think about her hourse..

I'd like to offer an apology Sultree. I am new here and over-bombastic by nature. Further complicating my full participation is the fact that I am using an iPhone. I live off-the-grid and have no other method, so, yeah: all of this is typed out on a phone.... It is difficult to format and edit. Reading posts thoroughly is grueling. I didn't track the various back and forth's well enough, and got caught in an echo chamber. "Peevish" is a good word for.

Again: I'm sorry, Sultree

 

 

All I have really asked is for a specific example where Egwene is altruistic without personal gain.

In tEotW, she tells Perrin they should take turns riding Bela. Pretty sure she didn't gain anything but cramps out of that. Oh and in tGH, she hides Rand from the Aes Sedai in Fal Dara. Again I doubt she gained anything out of it.

Perrin didn't want to ride; he told her so and she insisted and wore him down..... Not altruistic: further proof of her horrible nature

The Fal Dara Incident was mentioned earlier by Sultree, and seems an act of altruism..... Well, at least she has that.....

We're too far apart to have a rational discussion on this blue. Cool that you studied lit in college as well though, where did you go? I went to UCSB and although you have some of the concepts down your a wide margin off from any realistic character study and again by your own admission bias is skewing your viewpoint.

All I have really asked is for a specific example where Egwene is altruistic without personal gain. I admit my bias against her, but you cannot find an example (POV ruminations don't count) and so you become dismissive and haughty. Are you snarling as you reply? Personally, I don't care if you studied at Harvard or Sanra Barbara Community, you don't seem to have an analytic or imaginative mind. Flashing your educational credential is kinda dooshy, bte......

I think you and I should stop talking to each other now

She...gives her life...to kill dreadlords...at the last battle...........what the fuck do you mean she doesn't do anything for the greater good?

 

So bottom line - she did it because she was losing everything she valued most (power and influence) so death was welcome. Any good that came out of it was just gravy.

Exatcly!!

 

Yes, everything you say here is the basic story line, but perhaps you and I analyze things in different ways. i am less concerned of WHAT somebody does as to WHY they do it. WoT is so deep and rich and perfect for my spinning brain. And once i saw waht motivated Egwene, I could not NOT see it any longer and every subsequent scene of hers shone with a clarifying light.I state unequivocally that Egwene does NOTHING for the greater good. Everythjng is self-referential and slef-serving.

So you flat out agree you aren't looking at what actually happened you are applying your own admittedly very biased perspective to her actions. I was a lit major in college blue and you aren't doing any deeper character study or analysis here. You're ignoring what actually happened and defaulting to absurd worst case scenario situations. The bolded comment is a perfect example of what I was discussing above. You can't really be taken seriously with statements like that, it is shown to be false many times and she made the ultimate sacrifice in AMoL in helping heal the pattern.

I don't remember any of my literature, political science or media classes saying it was okay to just repeat what happens and call it good. Maybe we went to different colleges.... Leaving the little person jabs out of your replies would also be nice.

To undertake a truly honest character study, you gotta strip away your emotional bias. It's called character critiquing. You see a character in totality, then break them down into more specific and smaller pieces,, finding behavior patterns, habits, stuff like that. It's like using a box lid to assemble a puzzle: you already know what the puzzle looks like (e.g. the STORY, what a character DOES) but the purpose is to look at the small pieces (e.g. MOTIVATIONS, what a character IS).

I admit bias: I am no fan of Egwene but that's because I've put her puzzle together, so to speak. She is a ruthless, cunning character, and a crappy friend, and in real life I would want nothing to do with hert. Honestly,, without her Amrylin stole, her TR anility, and her being able to channel, what is she? Ask yourself if she's the sort of person you'd want to hang out with..... If you said "YES", I want to know WHY.....

By saying she hasn't done anything for the greater good, I mean that she has done anything in these book without first calculating her own gain, which means she is placing her own needs first. please don't inundate me with plotlines and jacketcover reviews: tell me what she has ever done that was selfless and without gain to herself. On this last read thru, I couldnt find a single example of her doing something without calculating self-gain. Except, maybe, hiding Rand in Fal Dara, which you pointed out, and was the first, only, and last time she displays honest friendship towards him. Was her death in the Last Battle a self-less act? Nope: she probably calculated her act would bind her to the Horn of Valare. Calm down. I'm joking. Not really.

In your prior post, you said she "shows great respect" for her teachers and I replied with clear proof that she has not done this. In fact, looking at her relationship with her "teachers" is clear proof of her calculating nature. And I will say it again: she dominated Nyanaeve for her own reasons, not to assist Nynaeve overcome her obstacles. And, yes, it was a gang-rape scenerio. People might not like that description, but it is what it is.

From her first appearance in EotW, she is shown to be a bully, and as the story unfolds, we see her shifting alleigence from one power base to another. I say "allegiance" because in any debate, or conflict she sides with the group she emulates. This tendancy is clearly established, from Nyanaeve to Morainne to her Novice training to the Aeil to Salidar to the White Tower. She easily adapts to customs, cultures, and mannerisms, and the use of social mores and legal remedies. Also, she gravitates to the most powerful women within a group. And she works to become to "best", a paragon, by jumping in with two feet, some might say. It seems pretty noble......if you ignore the darker side which is that whenever a "better optiion" arrives, she just as easily flips her affiliations, along with her loyalties.

Hyperbole:

Noun

Exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

Synonyms

exaggeration - hyperbola - overstatement

________

psychopathy

noun

1. a mental disorder in which an individual manifests amoral and antisocial behavior, lack of ability to love or establish meaningful personal relationships, extreme egocentricity, failure to learn from experience, etc.

----------

How does Egwene NOT fit this basic description? People respect her, they folkw her, they fear her, but who besides Gawyn "loves" her?

@BlueSun

 

[.....]Further as for her own compulsive needs, she was shoved into being Amyrlin and they tried to make her a puppet. She was forced to consolidate power/get her feet under and even then we are hammered over the head with the fact that she wants a whole WT because she views it as being necessary for the world to face the Last Battle. She did more in her short time to reform the WT and bring it back towards it's true purpose than any other Amyrlin in thousands of years. It had nothing to do with her own personnel needs. You can argue her faith was misplaced in a flawed institution being the best thing to lead the world against the shadow(anything else really would be unrealistic given they have been the main force holding the shadow at bay for 3,000 years and are the only reason anyone remembers the DO) but you can't question her motivations in working for the greater good. We are literally sledge hammered over the head with it.[\quote]

 

Yes, everything you say here is the basic story line, but perhaps you and I analyze things in different ways. i am less concerned of WHAT somebody does as to WHY they do it. WoT is so deep and rich and perfect for my spinning brain. And once i saw waht motivated Egwene, I could not NOT see it any longer and every subsequent scene of hers shone with a clarifying light.

 

I state unequivocally that Egwene does NOTHING for the greater good. Everythjng is self-referential and slef-serving. This conclusion is reached if we ignore the vicarious confusion of reading her PoV. in kther words, DON'T FEEL, THINK! Look at what she does, how she does it and truly as why she's doing ut. AKA: discover BEHAVIOR, METHODS, and MOTIVATION. ,

 

If she really and truly wanted the Tower to be reunited for the Last Battle, the most obvious and efficient option would have been this:: "Hey, everybody! Look, I know you all-- I mean all of us-- are rebels, but if we really want the Tower to reunite, then maybe we should go back to Elaida. No, don't freak out!! i mean, the White Tower needs to be whole because the Last Battle is coming: we've had 6,000 pages sayin it, so maybe we should grit our teeth and take what comes. you know, for the greater good of mankind....." Egwene of course doesnt take this route, citing the pure partisanship ans self-preservatikn. No sacrifice for the greater good, there.....

 

....Don't laugh or sneer at this suggestion: it was a completely viable option, especially because Egwene brought the tower down from the inside, so a full and immediate reunification could have bypassed 4 full novels. But she got honey in her tea, which sounds kind of dirty, but it's not.....

 

Because this is a work of fiction, of course, we are in favor of Egwene's rule, but beyond emotional favoritism, let's ask this: WHY WAS EGWENE'S LEADERSHIP SO PRAISE-WORTHY? Separating out how we feel about what she did with what she actually did exposes that she manipulated Salidar with the same ruthless efficiency that Elaida/Alviarin did. In fact, Egwene's entire tenure as Amrylin is rife with political intrigue, the constant breaking or bending of rules, coercion, intimidation, subterfuge, the illegal swearing of oaths, deceptions, partial truths, circumventing the rules, sidestepping the Three Oaths, espionage, attaining goals through force of will, blackmail, taking advantage of Tower Law to either gain advantage or neutrelize a rival, publicly condemning the splintering of the Ajah while taking full advantage of the weakness, deception, dishonesty, dissension and discord, continue the dissemination of the Logain Lie knowing full well is was ficticious and devicive. a wedge, and although I might have missed another dozen smaller examples, we must NEVER forget that she knowingly sheltered one of the Forsaken for the sole purpose of gleaning knowledge of the AoL, because, well: f**k time-honored laws and basic morality!

 

Really, besides our emotional investment in the story, you gotta ask WHY the Salidar faction is any better the Elaida, because almost identical machinations take place....

 

This is an extremely important point because as we can see in the last few books, Egwene doesn't institute systemic reforms, and here we are in the Last Battle and Accepted are safely tucked away, because tradition dictates that they not be part of the fighting. Lovely. She doesn't answer the basic question about what the Aes Sedai role in the world actually should//could be. Instead it is more of the same..... And in the last, she doesn't, not once, ask: "How can the White Tower help?" Sure, she did a lot of fresh stuff, and the given reforms are refreshing, but in no way was she a Great Reformer...... Which calls into question Egwene's entire motivatation in leading the Salidar faction, but in the end, Elaida flew out on a lizard and, Egwene floated in on a boat, and the Tower continues to manipulate, coerce, intimidate and expect everyone to bend the knee without demonstrating WHY they deserve it.....

 

Egwene didn't undertake the Salidar mandate out of benevolence, nor did she merely see a great task that needed doing and begin the work. Something about her internal architecture compelled her to do it. Her competitiveness. Her undiluted sense of importance. The excitement at playing the Game of Thrones (is that reference okay, here?). She was attracted to the task because she could freely exercise her subconscious nature: to dominate, like every other Aes Sedai we have seen. She was simply better than all of them..... RIP, Egwene al'Vere. I'll miss you.....

@BlueSun

 

By all means please do so then. Should be interesting.

 

She cares for the people around her and respects her teachers greatly.

You mention her "great respect" for her teachers: I'd like to address that. However, your statement that she "cares for people" is confusing because I don't remember single time when she went out of her way to orovide ease and comfort to someone. Expressing sympathy doesn't count; merely being the Amrylin doesn't count. Maybe I missed something, so if you can provide a solid, irrefutable example, I will retract this statement and bake some cookies in your honor. .... And if you can find three people she has truly sacrificed herself for, I will send you $10....

Anyhow: Which of her teachers does she "show great respect"?

NYANAEVE: Her Wisdom from Edmond's Field, she pounds into submission, over and over, using all methods possible. Shame. Belittlement. The Silent Treatment. Speaking while Nya is speaking. And let's not forget their especially wonderful episodes in TR. Force feeding Nyanaeve vile substances. Further belittlement. More coercion and browbeating. And the rruthless act of subjecting Nya to a gang-rape scenerio. That Nyanaeve ultimately grows more awesome from all this is because she's Nyanaeve.'Egwene's entire INTENT WAS TO COMPEL NYANAEVE'S SILENCE, because she was breaking her promise to the Wise Ones, and exposure would mean Egwene would be deprived of what she wanted. rather than tempwer herself and modify her behavior, she instead terrorizes Nyanaeve to keep her mouth shut. It doesn't end there, though: she continues reinforcing this psychological pressure on Nyanaeve for the remainder of the series, even going so far as participating and contributing in Nyanaeve's brutal Testing in ToM.. .. Let's put aside that they pretty much grew up together, that they shared common roots, and ask: What part of her behavior to Nyanaeve is "showing great respect"? It's self-serving coercion. Period.

The Wise Ones: the ENTIRE TIME she was with them, SHE LIED, about her being a full Aes Sedai and the chronically broken promise to stay out of TR unsupervised. For months she ignored that single provision, justifying her behavior and employing a variety of deceptions [see above]. And when her training was complete and their usefulness ended, then, and only then, does she seiously consider telling them the truth. How long did she live with the Aeil? Six months? Eight months? She maintained her deceit for obvious human reasons, sure, but it is interesting to note that she developed the guts to finally come clean when there were no serious consequence. If I remember correctly, her actual motive behind confessing was because she assumed the WO would find out through other means, and hey, why burn a bridge, eh? but atill she dithered and delayed until the last possible minute.....It is the that she kneels down, admits her toh, gets beaten.... And then asks for the secret of entering TR in the flesh. See what she did there? Display the veneer of nobility, and immediately turn the credit into advantage. The timing of all this raises great suspicion to her motive, because from that point on, there is little contact or warmth between Egwene and her WO teachers. They note her allegiance shift, and become suspiscious of her motives from then on.... Where in all this, or the handful of meetings in TR, does she "show great respect" to these teachers?

Finally, none of her Aes Sedai teachers//groomers are shown "great respect". Deference? Yeah, kind of. Gratitude? Sure, but where is there "great respect"? Oh, that's right: She's the Amrylin Seat and the Amrylin Seat is supreme beyond all others......

So I guess "shows great respect to her teachers" an example of hyperbole, huh?

 .

 

As for the rest calling her a psychopathic narcissist is precisely the type of hyperbole that distracts from any rational discussion of her character. It's right up there with the "worse than Elaida" and "forsaken like" claims. 

 

No: my diagnosis of her character traits is not simply saying she's "worse than Elaida", and its not hyperbole. Google the Psychopathy Checklist and honestly compare her behaviors throughout the series with what the experts say. Of the 20 descriptors they measure by, Egwene could easily fit 13..... The Narcissitic variable is provable too, mostly because she cannot see anything beyond her own compulsive needs.....

 

Not hyperbole: provable through any scene she has in the series.

Egwene al'Vere's story arc in MoL was teeth-gritting. Every fiber of my dislike for her was played like a banjo whenever she was in-scene. Call me heartless, not once did I feel affection for this core character. I could write a long list of nit-picks, but I will condense it down to TWO specific examples:

(1) Remember after the meeting at Merrilor, when the pavilion empties and everyone stands in primal, honest wonder under the grove of Great Trees?The Song of the Ogier. The enhanced joy of holding the Power. The scent of life and Life and earth.... Everyone is awed, filled with hope and renewal. What is Egwene' opinion of this "miracle"? Let's look at page 187:

["We'll, whatever Rand is now," she said, folding her arms, "he can't just make a stedding appear." She seemed to find the thought comforting.]

Condensed in these two sentences is everything a person needs to know about Egwene. Even after 13 books and an anti-climatic meeting in the pavilion (which SHOULD HAVE BEEN RAND'S POV!!!), she displays total ignorance of Rand's purpose in the world. Balance, remember?A world free of the DarkOne? Leave the pavilion and --POOF!!-- a splinter of the world Rand wants to leave behind. Does she shift her thinking? Become curious or inspired at the possibilities? No: she ignores that the "Pattern is seeking balance" and instead goes immediately to the idea that Rand might possibly have the ability to deprive Aes Sedai from channeling.... Awesome.... Of course, shadow-spawn cannot enter stedding and they are bastions of refreshment and peace and nature, but at least he "can't just make steddings appear"..... I loooooooove Egwene ...[\sacrcsm\]

Point number (2): I find it telling and extremely disappointing that she did not return to the Two Rivers for a wedding ceremony. From a literary standpoint, revisiting Emond's Field via a joyful celebration would have provided counter-point to the bleak, fearful flight in tEotW. Start and finish, ya know? Alas: when she left the Two Rivers, she LEFT the Two Rivers in her dust . Really, Egwene? Not even a single visit via Gateway? A summons to her parents for a meal in Tar Valon? Nothing? You gotta wonder what happened back in the day to make her so completely reject her people and traditions. Rand and Perrin and Nyaneave and Mat all, to some degree, laud their upbringing: Egwene never once pointed at her childhood and said: "I am strong because of Emond's Field.".... Instead, we are deprived of a joyous celebration in the face of the Last Battle, and learn that she herself had to sign the paperwork for her TarValon/Las Vegas wedding. I wonder if she had a reception? Cake? Champagne? or do you thjnk they signed the papers, said the vows, did the humpry-dance and now a core character is wedded.... Delightful....,

Egwene is a psychopathic narcissist.... i felt whispers on my first read-thru and in this MoL re-read, they screamed like a burglar alarm. I couldn't find even a single interaction she had that wasn't laden with brow-beating, put-downs, maneuvering, coercion, or silently berating other people. She never displayed empathy, humility, contrition or even honest friendship. Yes yes yes! She DOES a whole bunch of cool stuff and succeeds in awesome ways, but DOING COOL STUFF DOESN'T EXCUSE HER PSYCHOPATHIC BEHAVIOR....

RIP, Egwene al'Vere: I cried a little, turned the page, and kept reading

She's a power hungry chameleon; don't be fooled

Sorry about poor formatting: I'm new