Durinax - Bornhald not actually that reasonable, he is a WC and he knew Perrin and Egwene were DF, period.

the fact that he wasn't foaming at the mouth like Byar, and he spoke in a calm voice doesn't change his WC leanings.

WC could not think of a good reason for two kids to be out there and there were wolves in the area, any people must be DF.

Reread Bornhald you will see what i'm saying.

 

Evil Socrates - temporary insanity doesn't excuse people, but it also doesn't mean that they need to be institutionalized either. Perrin went with temp. insanity. Temporary insanity (from all my TV learnings) is when moments after a person's best friend is killed, he lashes out... No premeditation with under extreme emotional duress.

Turns out TV is not the best source for legal education. Fewer student loans though! Temporary insanity is treated no differently than a normal insanity defense--it is just the argument that, at the time of the crime, the defendant was not legally sane, but now (at time of trial) he is. If that turns out to be true, then you are correct that the defendant is not institutionalized, because they are no longer insane. They still receive an acquittal though--they walk. You seem to be confusing temporary insanity with extreme emotional disturbance or something, which is usually only a mitigating factor, not a defense. Remember, an insanity defense requires an actual mental disease or defect, not just "I was really really upset/mad/sad/hungry/confused/etc."

Perrin ARGUED extreme emotional disturbance to Morgase, which was a mistake on his part, and appeared to receive something like a manslaughter charge, which is roughly right on that theory. He SHOULD have played up the "I'm a werewolf thing" to mean "I was going crazy with voices in my head" not "wolves are my buddies and I get angry when they die. And I ax the crap out of people when angered!" This is why you should not represent yourself in your own murder trial.

Perrin was probably not legally sane at the time that he committed the homicides--and probably was still crazy and dangerous for a good bit afterwards. However, he seems to have cured himself by the time of the Morgase trial, so it would not have been needed then. Who needs lithium when you have magic wolf spirit dream guides to treat mental illness?

I feel like I posted this before, but I don't see it here so, here goes.

Perrin has a strong insanity defense, so long as being a wolf-brother counts as a "mental disease or defect," and based on the general case-law on that term, it would (it's an actual, physical difference between Perrin's brain and a normal brain that affects his ability to function in society). The majority (and most stringent) insanity defense in the US only requires that the defendant had a mental disease or defect that caused him to 1) be unable to know what he was doing or 2) be unable to appreciate the wrongfulness of his conduct.

If I remember correctly, Perrin was overcome with a wolfbrother induced berserker rage, wherein he was not conscious of his actions, and could not appreciate that they were wrong (or even what they were). Many jurisdictions have an even more lenient standard, which would allow Perrin to be acquitted if he had an "irresistible impulse" to chop people up with his ax, which seems likely here also.

Of course, a successful insanity defense means that he would have be institutionalized until he was no longer a threat to himself or others, which seems a just result in this case, for sure. Then again, Andor is a primitive, foolish place, so we cannot expect too much of their stupid monarchy based legal system.

I think part of the reason Rand is behaving somewhat oddly is that he is still discovering and coming to terms with who exactly he is now. He makes that remark "I thought I was beyond such anger now, but I guess I have to be angry sometimes too" after A Storm of Light (paraphrased). Indicates that he has found a new peace, but isn't sure exactly how to feel about it/what balance to strike.

He also seems a bit...giddy, which I think is totally fair. I mean he was in horrible agony and madness and despair, and then he was suddenly healed and found hope. He can see without madness for the first time in years (?), has hope, doesn't have LTT screaming at him, and is finally not furious all the time. I think after an emotional experience like that, you would both laugh and cry a little more easily for a while until you regained some emotional composure--hence the Tam scene. He doesn't have his barriers anymore so he needs a little time and space before his head is entirely on straight. All this is without even considering the LTT memories.

Re: Sanche questioning, I think that made sense along similar lines. He is letting himself feel things again, and he is understandably interested in what HIS OWN reaction would be to seeing Egwene as Amyrlin when he wasn't in a crazed rage void. I think his new mental state and merger with LTT is a puzzle to him, which is part of the reason he spends so much time meditating on a cloud.

I think the final Rand outcome will be something like how he was with Egwene really. I thought that scene read quite plausibly for him. He comes in, is curious about Egwene b/c she was a childhood friend, is a little sad at the distance between them (and at using her) but he manipulates her into gathering the world's armies. He does so somewhat formally, but also playfully (his bow and smile after she yells at him for turning his back). As mentioned, he has become very much the noble and philosopher and, well, king. In addition to Moiraine schooling, he has spent most of the series out-smarting people at court and at war and trying to puzzle out the prophesies (with some success). He also founded the first universities in this age. Between that and LTT personality seepage, he was already pretty formal and scholarly--look at how Dark Rand (embarrassingly) treats Tam when he first meets him (before he freaks). Very formal. Now he is still somewhat formal and philosophical, like he always was, he just isn't a huge dick who is brimming with rage all the time, so he is a little more playful and compassionate like how he used to be as a kid in the TR. Felt right to me.

Actually, he might have an insanity defense. The test for insanity varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but a common one holds that a defendant is not guilty if he had a mental disease or defect that caused him to be unable to control his actions or conform his conduct to the law. Perrin has a good case for that, if you count being possessed by wolves a mental disease or defect. I would, because what we are really getting at with that definition is the identifying people who do not have normally functioning brains, around which the laws and expectations of society are designed.

I think he didn't add her on purpose. He obviously doesn't trust her and really has no reason to.

 

He proved his distrust when it becomes clear that he manipulated her into gathering a resistance against him.

He obviously knew that she would go against him and would refuse to work with him.

I don't really see that as mistrust so much as awareness. For example, I think that Rand trusts Elayne, but is also aware that when it comes down to it, Elayne will put Andor ahead of him. He's fine with that, and he respects her for it. He's similar to that himself in a lot of ways. Along those lines, he's aware that Egwene will put the White Tower ahead of him, and he's aware (and somewhat bemused I think) by an awareness that she'll naturally oppose him, like saidin and saidar.

 

 

Elayne wont oppose Rand for the sake of opposing. Except for her aparent deathwish (going off hunting black ajah and getting herself cought all the time) she actually works with other people, Egwene on the other hand does not, she uses and conflicts with everyone.

*Stirs the pot*

Hey, remember that time that super-cooperative Elayne threatened to kill Perrin even though (1) he had a huge army that could destroy Camelyn, (2) it would alienate Rand, (3) She knows he is a Ta'veren very important to the light, (4) Perrin was mostly just defending the homes that she neglected, (5) her reason for doing so was because she had some sort of birthright to their loyalty because her great great grandmother may have ruled over then or something (6) murder is bad (7) it would mean war with Saldea?

I do!

You can't really fault Egwene for being politically interested and manipulative and then hold up Elayne as an example. They are both politicians advancing the well-being of the state they are in charge of (to the best of their abilities). The only thing that's weird about Egwene is that she has every reason to resent the White Tower and no reason to be so loyal to it and think it is such a great institution. Once you swallow the "Egwene thinks the WT is a great force for good that has just been led astray but is very deserving of respect and loyalty" pill, most of her actions are very understandable. Many Egwene haters simply can't quite swallow that pill because they, personally, hate Aes Sedai so much. If Egwene were acting in the Aiel's best interest (a culture that everyone loves and that Egwene has reason to), she would get a ton more slack.

Imagine if her response had been "He cannot break the seals, that would mean the death of the Aiel!" or "He has made the Wise Ones kneel and swear to him, he must be abusing his power and they should be free." I doubt she would get so much flack.

I mean, I hate Aes Sedai as much as anybody (well, a bunch anyhow). I think they are miserable arrogant failures. The only Ajahs that actually do anything are the Red (who make up for it by being straw man villain man hating jerks) and the Brown (WHAT DOES MAGIC HAVE TO DO WITH BEING A SCHOLAR, IT DOES NOT MAKE YOU SMARTER YOU DORKS, FOUND A REAL COLLEGE). But EGWENE doesn't think that, probably because Robert Jordan didn't either. I think they are supposed to be viewed as arrogant and misguided, but ultimately deserving of respect and a great force for good. They just were not handled well by the author.

*puts away his stirring spoon*