I guess that makes sense, but they still have 4 other ages to cleanse it in. Also, do they know the seals will weaken, requiring the same bore to be resealed? Was it know that the patch was imperfect?

Maybe they had some Prediction made by an AS?

But as I see it, it's not necessary that they did it for a specific purpose. Think about it, if you live in the AoL and suddenly Saidin is tainted and you know that the Seal is somehow flawed (I suppose this would not be hard to tell for them since they had seen the "original" Prision; or one of the Hundred Companions said it; or they could just 'see' it from the tainting), the first think you do is secure a portion of Saidin without taint in case it is needed. And maybe they didn't know in which Era, but they knew that eventually it would be needed, for the greatest achievemts are always with both Saidin and Saidar.

I personally think they knew the Prision was flawed and that Saidin would be needed to 'repair' it, and they made the EotW for that purpose. As you said, they wouldn't know in which Era would the Seals weaken or in which Era would the Saidin be cleansed so in case it wasn't cleansed in time they made it.

Maybe even a female could have used it. This is just my thoughts but I think they thought that if Saidin wasn't cleansed in time there wouldn't be male channelers available and through the Well a female could be able to channel it through 'conducts' of Saidar, like when Rand cleans the taint.

Ok I have a question.

 

I believe RJ said the Eye of the World was not used for its intended purpose. So do we know what it was used for?

 

Im convinced it was more significant than being just a pool of clean saidin placed on the Horn and banner. Aginor wanted the Eye, not the Horn. And the Dark One said he wanted to blind the Eye. Any ideas?

 

I think it unlocked Rands potential somehow. Like the memories, or the soul/thread recognition stuff.

 

Well, I can't say you are wrong, but if RJ said wasn't used for it's purpose, yet Rand got it anyway, wouldn't that be using it for its purpose?

 

Besides the nitpick on words, my best guess is that it was to be used to Seal the DO again. I am not sure how this works, but if they managed to get a pure pool of saidin, wouldn't that mean it was separated somehow form the rest?

 

So by using this pool, it could prevent the "other" saidin from being tainted again, and only the Eye saidin would be tainted. Or, since it would be used up, nothing would be tainted.

 

I don't know if that works though.

 

 

Re: Moggy v Lanfear.

 

I think that Moggy probably knows more about TAR, and can do more complex things there (like Birgitte ripped out) but Lanfear is stronger and better at doing things in TAR.

 

That is assuming they knew that Saidin would be cleansed in the first place.

 

On a side note, pretty much once every three pages rand thinks Saiden instead of Saidar in Lord of Chaos...

I think Barid is right. One of the theories I like about the Sealing is the one that talks about using a Well of Saidin and a Well of Saidar so that the TS isn't tainted. I hadn't thought it before but maybe all this about the Eye of the World is forshadowing of that, or even the base that leads Rand or Min into the idea of using Wells.

And if you think about it, it would be easy for AoL ASs to know that Saidin would be cleansed, since they knew that time is ciclyc and in their Era Saidin was clean.

I think Aran'gar was messing with Egwene's dreams. Perhaps sexually, it's never really explained.

 

Are you saying that Mogheden can enter TAR but not the gap of infinity?

 

It's probably the a'dam, but it's never mentioned.

Aran'Gar did so through waves I think, like the headache...I'm not sure in this, but I think it's the most probable.

Yes, that's what I meant.

Did Moghedien use TAR in any way when she was being held captive in Salidar, either to try escape or to mess with the minds of Elayne/Nynaeve/etc?

 

If not, why not?

I don't know if the a'dam has something to do, but even if it doesn't, what would you want her to do? Even if she enters TAR, she can't do anything unless Nyn or Elayne enter it too. And she can't sneak in their dreams, she isn't that skilled in TAR. As far as I know, only WOs, Egwene, Lanfear and Ishamael can do it. Asmodean appears briefly in Rand's dream when Lanfear is with him in the lake (dream) but that's probably just because Lanfear is there and he follows her.

The major monotheistic religions actually know about their god because he came down and told them. RJ said the creator doesn't do this. I believe that the information comes from TaR myself, but with the one power is is probably possible to do all sorts of things, the AoL probably had a fair amount of proof about the wheel and creator. The found the prison after all, which means they had the ability to reach outside the pattern, which implies that they knew the pattern exists and what it was made from.

Because 'seomeone' sais that he came down and told HIM about what to do, mind you. Well, with the access to the TS, the believing of it coming from a Creator is no surprise. Also, the effects of Balefire support the Pattern theory.

The DO was found while searching for a new source of Power. They thought they had mastered Saidar and Saidin and that they couldn't keep on 'evolving' with them, which was plain arrogance (healing stilling?, unweaving?, etc.); so they started searching for another source of Power, and they found it 'outside the Pattern' (outside time and space as they know it) in a kind of 'bubble' or 'well'. They bore it to acces it and chachan it was the DO.

I hope they never do a movie. It would be plain horrible. I wouldn't mind, though, HBO doing a series GoT-like. HBO has great series.

I'm a bit ashamed to ask this, being a huge fan of the series, but I guess this is something I haven't quite caught on to yet:

 

How does anyone in the Wheel of Time know there is a creator or other ages at all, besides the Age of Legends? I thought it was made clear in the books that there were little to no records from other ages besides the Third Age and the age of legends (which, while I'm asking - Is the Age of Legends the 2nd Age, or is it still part of the Third Age? That hasn't stuck with me, either, I'm afraid.)

 

On this same line of thought, how is the Pattern itself even known of? It's true that the Heroes of the Horn would know in Tel'aran'rhiod of their pasts, but even then, how did they connect that with a literal "pattern"? Furthermore, how did the original Aes Sedai know where to look for what is now refered to as the Bore? Did they sense the power emnating from there with Saidin/Saidar, or was it something else?

 

Thanks ~

Well, how do christians know about God and muslims about Ala? How do people know of and believe in destiny? It's all about philosophy.

How did it survive the Breaking? Well, note that the Breaking didn't kill every person alive at the moment. It was a period of decadence when a lot of knowledge was lost, probably because a lot of the most important ASs died 1) The Hundred Companions 2) The Sharom; and so a lot of Talents and abilities may had been lost. Not everyone knew how to do everything, as we know pretty well from the Forsaken themselves. And with the lose of the most important centers of knowledge, most of books talking about that abilities and Talents were lost, and with no people alive capable of doing such waves or with knowledge about certain Talents, they eventually were forgoten. No time to write books during the Breaking, you know. Returning to the main point, I said all this to explain that notions about the Creator and the Pattern wouldn't have been lost because it was probably something everyone knew. Maybe in the AoL not everyone believed in it, as not everyone believes in God, destiny, etc, but still we all know what this notions are. And so I doubt something everyone knows could be forgotten.

Just taking the kidnapping saga and saying it didn't help him is wrong anyway. His eyes helped him get the forkroot, his connection with Elayas helped him find Malden, his sense of smell helped him not get ripped off by merchants. You could pick situations of with any character and say 'where was his/her talent of help here'.

Look, the thing is this started when people said that they were tired of Perrin's personality or that it was boring or that RJ could have done it better. And I said that while Rand is the DR and has his channeling to help him, and Mat has his memories and luck, if Perrin didn't have that personality he wouldn't have been able to succeed despite being a Wolfbrother, because he can't sweep aside everything he wants like rubbish nor he can plan a war campaign that always turns lucky on his side. He had his own advatages but with another personality he would have fail. And that's my opinion. Only wanted you to know what was this all about. I respect yout point of view and I can see where it comes from but I have my own.

And I still disagree that being a wolfbrother has any dangers associated with it at all. We know of 3, one who chose to go all the way wolf, one who chose to hang out with the wolves and one who chose to hang out with men. Perrin's assumption that the pull of the wolves would drive him insane and turn him into one of them isn't borne out by events at all.

Yes, you might be right there, though I'm beggining to think that you can't dismiss the danger with 'it was his own fault to think like that, he was wrong'. Ok, but being wrong doesn't change that it gave him more problems than help. So, yes, I think you're right. There was no danger, but Perrin thought so and that's what matters.

And this is my last post on the subject xD It's quite hard for me to explain myself in english. I don't find the words to explain myself better and I'm afraid what I try to say is not the same that you understand. I'm trying to speak about a personal opinion that comes from no evidence at all, it's just a 'feeling' from the books or well I don't even know how to say it. I could write a full esay in spanish about the matter explaining my thoughts thorougly but in english I would spend what, an hour? 2 hours maybe to write down all that comes to my mind that support my PoV. It's just impossible for me to summary it here with simple words. And believe me that I'm sorry for it, I like this discussions with people that knows a lot about the series like you, but there's a limit for me to express in english. Sooo last post on it. I made my point as clear as I could and I get yours so no reason for me to keep arguing over the same thing.

Directly helped him? Any time he interects with someone and they are put off balanced by him eyes. In the Two Rivers he couldn't of won without the dream and taking out Slayer there. Dumai's Wells he found Rand with the help of the wolves, following the Horn. Without his talent the world would of been lost atleast twice, if Mat wasn't lucky not much would be too different (aside from the Aiel woman not having an excuse to hook up with him the first time). Just because it hasn't helped him specifically during the kidnapping saga doesn't mean it is useless.

Ok. As I said, I'm talking about the events listed above, not others.

That said, Mat's luck don't change anything? lol Please find me something he acomplished without his luck being involved, I really can't think of any. Could you say the same about Perrin's smell? And his eyes unsettling people hardly changed anything.

Don't missunderstand. I already said that Wolfbrothers are awsome, but my whole point was that if Perrin wasn't the way he is, meticulous, thorough, etc, he wouldn't have been nearly as succesful in his tasks because his talent didn't really help much in it. And again, I'm talking about the tasks he was doing for Rand, not other things. You can't take one of my posts alone and take it as base for an argument, when they are in the context of a larger conversation.

Well, I get your point. I keep my ground though. I still think that Perrin was the one with less resources to do what he had to, but well it's just an opinion and it seems like I won't persuade you :P

 

By resources, do you mean personal resources or other resources (soldiers, money, etc.)?

 

The 3 ta'veren have the following:

- Rand: powerful channeler, awesome sa'angreal, powerful ta'veren effect, remarkable and unexplained learning of weaves (probably attributed to LTT memories and/or divine intervention).

- Perrin: TAR, wolves, sense of smell, ta'veren effect

- Mat: Luck, battle memories, foxhead medallion, ta'veren effect

 

Perrin's huge disadvantage is Faile; but I won't get into that

Don't forget Rand's authority as DR :P

And yes, I meant that.

As I said, I think that being a Wolfbrother is awsome and a powerful talent, but tell me how did it help him with:

1) Dealing with Masema. Anyone could tell he was nuts without smelling it.

2) Dealing with Malden and therefore with the Seanchan.

3) Dealing with the WC, then with the trolloc assault. You could say it was important for him to know that Galad smelled 'better', but would it have changed something not to know that? Events would still have happened.

The only thing I can think as decisive is him taking care of the Dreamspike, a VERY important matter but Rand for example can enter TAR too. And Mat with his memories wouldn't have needed to destroy it, he would just smash those trollocs or WC or whatever it was.

As I said before, I don't say his talent wasn't useful, just that comparing, he is in quite a disadvantage from Mat or Rand.

Things that would have been quite easy for them, took a lot of effort from him because in the matters listed above his talent wasn't that useful.

Perrin kickass domain is TAR, and he is awsome there. But in the WW he is behind the others.

He only thinks he will lose himself. ToM shows it was a choice to go feral by that guy. rand's gift is less his ta'vereness and more his extreme channelling ability, which is far more likely to destroy him than being a wolfbrother is to Perrin.

He was wrong when thinking that the mere contact with the wolves would make him lose himself, but he still needs to find that balance. That is for certain. If he didn't find it he would become just like Noam (?¿ I think that was the name) eventually, or lose himself in another way I don't know. Elyas sais that he had had the same problem, but that he had found his balance.

And maybe Rand was in more risk pre-cleanse but that's not the point.

I never said that Rand and Mat didn't have their own problems, I only said that, from my PoV, the one with less help (understood as abilities too) and resources to do what he had to do was Perrin.

 

Perrin had Elyas and Hopper from the start (TEotW). Rand started getting help only after Asmodean was bound to him (TSR, I think). Perrin had the tools to help him right from the start; whereas Rand didn't have them till much later. And that is not counting his unbelievable sense of smell that picks up complex emotions rather accurately. He's got a few tools Mat and Rand don't have.

Lol? Rand had Moraine from the start if the argument comes down to that. I would much appreciate if you tell me what tool you're talking about. And his sense of smell while useful can't compare in campaign efectiveness with channeling or memories that make you equal to a Great Captain. Imo.

 

It is precisely channeling that I am talking about vs. Perrin's wolf ability. Rand didn't have any teacher or guide on channeling till Asmodean came along; whereas Perrin had Elyas and then Hopper from the start to guide him. Perrin's denial and unwillingness to learn are what held him back; but the tools were there.

 

As to his sense of smell, I think it is one of the most powerful traits that make Perrin formidable. He can sense the true feelings of a person speaking to him. He is the only who could sense people's true feelings in the books. Not a shabby advantage!

Well, I get your point. I keep my ground though. I still think that Perrin was the one with less resources to do what he had to, but well it's just an opinion and it seems like I won't persuade you :P

He only thinks he will lose himself. ToM shows it was a choice to go feral by that guy. rand's gift is less his ta'vereness and more his extreme channelling ability, which is far more likely to destroy him than being a wolfbrother is to Perrin.

He was wrong when thinking that the mere contact with the wolves would make him lose himself, but he still needs to find that balance. That is for certain. If he didn't find it he would become just like Noam (?¿ I think that was the name) eventually, or lose himself in another way I don't know. Elyas sais that he had had the same problem, but that he had found his balance.

And maybe Rand was in more risk pre-cleanse but that's not the point.

I never said that Rand and Mat didn't have their own problems, I only said that, from my PoV, the one with less help (understood as abilities too) and resources to do what he had to do was Perrin.

 

Perrin had Elyas and Hopper from the start (TEotW). Rand started getting help only after Asmodean was bound to him (TSR, I think). Perrin had the tools to help him right from the start; whereas Rand didn't have them till much later. And that is not counting his unbelievable sense of smell that picks up complex emotions rather accurately. He's got a few tools Mat and Rand don't have.

Lol? Rand had Moraine from the start if the argument comes down to that. I would much appreciate if you tell me what tool you're talking about. And his sense of smell while useful can't compare in campaign efectiveness with channeling or memories that make you equal to a Great Captain. Imo.

I don't think so. The language spoken in Randland has its roots on the Old Tongue, which hardly resembles english.

He only thinks he will lose himself. ToM shows it was a choice to go feral by that guy. rand's gift is less his ta'vereness and more his extreme channelling ability, which is far more likely to destroy him than being a wolfbrother is to Perrin.

He was wrong when thinking that the mere contact with the wolves would make him lose himself, but he still needs to find that balance. That is for certain. If he didn't find it he would become just like Noam (?¿ I think that was the name) eventually, or lose himself in another way I don't know. Elyas sais that he had had the same problem, but that he had found his balance.

And maybe Rand was in more risk pre-cleanse but that's not the point.

I never said that Rand and Mat didn't have their own problems, I only said that, from my PoV, the one with less help (understood as abilities too) and resources to do what he had to do was Perrin.

Perrin I feel it the one who has done so little with so much. Even though all the players have issues that Dr Phil couldn't figure out. Perrin is the one who doesn't want to be what he is. He fights it all the time. Only accomplishes anything when he is forced to do so because it is the only choice left.

Could you tell me the difference between him and Mat and Rand? I kind of missed it in yout comment.

As side note, imo he's done so much with so little, but that's personal opinion.

and what about Perrin? Perrin's "gift" has proven more a problem than a help, because unlike Mat' luck or Rand's extreme ta'vereness, he actually has to learn to control it or else he loses himself. Perrin is the only one that has to actually think about the things he has to do. I repeat, Mat has his luck and memories, Rand has his extreme ta'vereness and he is the fucking DR, but Perrin doesn't have anything to help him out other than his own brain. I actually find him extremely intelligent, only that he takes longer than most people to reach a conclusion, but the main point is that if he weren't so thorough he wouldn't be able to achieve so much merits.

We still don't have any reason to believe it's possible to forswear Oaths on a binder other than the one you used to swear them in the first place.

Galina forswears on a diferent one.

 

Galina swore a new oath on a new binder (No. 1, I think). The oath was to obey Therava (essentially becoming her slave).

True >,<

We still don't have any reason to believe it's possible to forswear Oaths on a binder other than the one you used to swear them in the first place.

Galina forswears on a diferent one.

We can consider that she was not sure because ['not betraying the DO until my last hour'] (more or less like that...) trying to undo the oaths would likely be kind of betrayal...

I don't think Jordan threw the 'distinctive' detail for nothing, but it could be a clue for another thing entirely; or it could be the plain answer here, I just think the other reason is also very possible.

I think that was intended. We are shown in-deph Perrin's thought process because that's how he'll be dealing with the LB. Mat may be the general, but I think Perrin's thoughts will be of major importance for non-military issues. Plus we are shown what kind of person he is becomingm, which could be necesary to understand his rol in aMoL; there are various theories about Perrin.

Well I think you are wrong about that.

It's not that Perrin doesn't want powers. He doesn't want to be a lord and thinks he doesn't deserve it.

About the powers, he obstructs his conection with the wolves because he is (sorry for this) FUCKING SCARED OUT OF HELL of becoming something like the other wolfbrother he finds whose name I don't remember. And he vanish the colours because they start when Malden thing and he is too focused in rescuing the girls not because he doesn't care.

To a large extent Perrin is selfish. All he cares about is Faile. He has basically said the world could die to free Faile. That makes him selfish, and dangerous. Would he sell out the side of Light to save Faile? Almost certainly. He doesn't want to lead even though people rely on him. It too him way too long, in terms of books to get where he is.

The over use of him stating about blacksmith puzzles is aggravating. I think he does this because he can't/won't want to think about something, or uses it as an excuse for his actions.

I think you take it too far. I agree Perrin is boring sometimes (my opinion is on a post above) and he sure cares a lot about Fail, but he isn't as single-minded as you think. For example, when he is rescuing Faile we see everything from his PoV, and obiously he centers his attention in Faile; but while doing this, he also keeps everyone together when they would be more than happy to fight each other. What else would you have him do?

Each character has had its progression. Rand becoming his campion persona, Mat accepting that he can't just gamble and forget about the world out there. And Perrin accepting that he must lead. Don't know why you say it took him too long in terms of books (Rand tGS, Mat tGS, Perrin only a book later and only because tGS was all about Malden I woud say).

And about the blacksmith puzzles, I actually find it fascinating. Rand, he's all about action and impulses (overall, I'm not doing an in-deph description of the characters), Mat can rely on his memories and luck, and what about Perrin? Perrin's "gift" has proven more a problem than a help, because unlike Mat' luck or Rand's extreme ta'vereness, he actually has to learn to control it or else he loses himself. Perrin is the only one that has to actually think about the things he has to do. I repeat, Mat has his luck and memories, Rand has his extreme ta'vereness and he is the fucking DR, but Perrin doesn't have anything to help him out other than his own brain. I actually find him extremely intelligent, only that he takes longer than most people to reach a conclusion, but the main point is that if he weren't so thorough he wouldn't be able to achieve so much merits.

Sorry I know I made a confusing post repeating myself and things like that but I'm short of time and couldn't find the words :S Sorry. :D

Yes, but that's on dragonmount. I thought you were saying that he destroyed it while balefiring Natrins Barrow.

I believe you are talking about the Choedan Kal (CK). Rand doesn't destroy the male one when he balefires the palace.

First of all the DO is impossible to kill/destroy. He is an equal to the Creator. The only possible thing to do about him is to seal him away from the Pattern.

And the TP is as strong as drawing directly from the TS which is the Creator himself as the TP is the DO himself. I can't provide quote but Rand sais in tGS, when he channles the TP, that the power he's wielding rivals with the OP he could channel through the CK:

I am sure this must have been covered many times, and I think I must have skipped over it in the book.

But what is stopping Rand using Callandor now the taint has been removed, as I thought the problem with it was that is magnified the effect of the taint on the source.

Rand doesn't use Callandor because it's flawed. It lacks the buffer that prevents someone from drawing too much of the OP.

Demandred is not (and never was) that Telaranrhiod guy. Both authors told that Demandred's alias did not appear on screen up through Knife of Dreams.

As far as I am aware, the guy's identity has not yet been revealed.

You should post this in the thread Barid created about this issue.