I don't know why others hate Egwene so much, but I haven't liked her since I read the first book for the first time. It always bugged me how she just forced herself into the party leaving because she wanted adventure, and then became obsessed with becoming an Aes Sedai. There a few moments in the first few books where she's okay, like how she gets excited Rand could be her Warder (because I just think that little scene in the Blight is cute =3) and I feel sympathy for her when she's a damane because she didn't deserve that, and it wasn't nice to read how she was treated.

 

The biggest problem I have with her, though, is her pretentiousness. As soon as she finds out she can dream, she's a strong channeler, she begins to constantly argue with Nynaeve in tDR, she gets trained by the Wise Ones for reasons I never understood and then manages to deal with everything because she spent a few months with them. I dunno, her character just grates on me. I can't even like her when she's saving the White Tower from destruction in the Gathering Storm, because it's her who saves the day. Ugh.

 

In fact, the only time I kind of like her in the latter part of the series is when she bests Elaida in so many ways during her captivity. But then she's just the lesser of two evils, so... =P

 

 

Egwene haters are nothing more rand al thor fanboys. Nothing more nothing less. Notice how they constantly moan about all thinsg aes sedai and the white tower and yet have no problems singing the praises of those sisters who are rand al thor lackeys.

 

 

No matter how much they try to give pitiful reasons for their hate or try and justify it, deep down they know that's the main reason. And they will seldom admit it. But you dont have to take my word for it. Every single poster on this board with the egwene hate blinders is a confirmed al thor fanboy

Yep, you sure nailed us. Time to pack it up guys, our ruse has been discovered. It was a good run, but Elan Tedronai has lanced straight to the beating black heart of our rage and exposed us for the charlatans we really are./sarcasm

In any case, 10/10 troll post, would laugh again. Keep up the good work Elan, you're always good for a chuckle or two.

Or, it could just be something that we need to "suspend disbelief" on, because there is no good rational explanation for this, it is just an invention of the author's mind to suit the story.

It's probably less this and more RJ simply not being able to wrap his mind around very large numbers and how complicated economics and population growth truly is. Which is a problem that every single author has to some degree.

No organized school system.

 

No organized religion.

 

Massive war every hundred years or so.

 

Constant threat of the shadow taking over.

 

Kind of hard to develop an IPod with those things hanging over your every day life.

 

I think the point about religion is particularly important. It always struck me as incredibly odd that there was no organized religion in the WoTverse, particularly when 99% of everyone appears to believe in the same creator deity.

 

Not sure if you have ever seen this?

 

 

 

Question

 

Are there any religions in the world of the Wheel of Time?

Robert Jordan

 

No. No religions, no churches: that will change in the next set of books, not in this, but where religion becomes in some ways preeminent, but...

QUESTION

 

[interrupts] Oh, is that a spoiler?? No, no!

ROBERT JORDAN

 

No, that's not for the Wheel of Time at all, and may change somewhat, as these things do. But the reason is this: I've always believed that our religious rituals our attendance at temples, or churches, or whatever is, in part, a reaffirmation of our faith, and a reaffirmation of our belief, a strengthening of our belief in something that we cannot see. And we do these things in order to strengthen our belief in what we cannot see. God, Allah, whatever...but, in this world, it is a world that...as if we had...prophets walking around...performing miracles. The One Power can be channeled. Occasionally men show up channeling the One Power; the Aes Sedai have been there for 3000 years.

QUESTION

 

But the Creator does not interfere!

ROBERT JORDAN

 

The Creator does not interfere, but there is clear evidence of the theological doctrine.

QUESTION

 

Of the unseen.

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Of the unseen. As far as it is believed, of the existence of the Creator: Here is the One Power. Here is evidence of everything we believe. There is therefore no need for anyone to undergo rituals to reaffirm or strengthen their belief because it is manifest every day. If we really had prophets walking among us, performing miracles and healing people and raising the dead—and this was a matter of every day that somebody might walk down the street and say 'In the name of...' and lay their hand on you. 'In the name of God be healed,' and your wounds are healed. Or, 'In the name of God rise up and walk,' and your dead brother, just died of cholera or whatever rises up and walks—I believe that organized religion would vanish within a generation, or at least become a fringe within a generation, because there would no longer be a need for most people to reaffirm their belief in God, or to strengthen their belief in God, or Allah, or whatever else their religious belief is. It would be manifest in every day life.

I hadn't seen these quotes before, so thank you for those.

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to disagree with Robert Jordan's views here. I think he's making the classic mistake of approaching ancient religion with a modern (and therefore far more secularised) mindset. Back then religion was far more real and central to modern life than it is today, and to people in the middle ages saints and prophets really did exist and miracles happened all the time. There are hundreds of documents and hagiographical works denoting various miracles and divine occurences, and many larger Churches had priests whose duty it was to investigate claims of miracles from the public. Faith was not 'something that cannot be seen', since medieval society already had tangible evidence of the divine (In their minds) with the relics of saints and holy artifacts.

We may look back and think, "Well obviously those 'miracles' didn't happen." But that's a modern mindset that's not really applicable to the superstitious and heavily religious society of the time period equivalent to that of the WoT.

No organized school system.

 

No organized religion.

 

Massive war every hundred years or so.

 

Constant threat of the shadow taking over.

 

Kind of hard to develop an IPod with those things hanging over your every day life.

I think the point about religion is particularly important. It always struck me as incredibly odd that there was no organized religion in the WoTverse, particularly when 99% of everyone appears to believe in the same creator deity.

Perrin, Mat and Rand all have the excuse of being Ta'veren and having the Pattern nudge things their way when needed. Egwene doesn't have that excuse hence her opponents suddenly becoming idiots is far less excusable.

Wonderful. On the one hand we have textual evidence that a circle of 13 can hold any channeler; and we have LTT in the box and prior to that raving mad against a circle of 13 as impossible to break. And on the other, that is brushed aside; and we have your assumption that Egwene was afraid that pattern would intervene to prevent her from holding him. You don't even consider Egwene's thoughts on why she shouldn't hold him (hypocrisy after what she told Elaida).

 

You cannot fathom the idea that Egwene let him go of her own free will because she trusted him to show up at the meeting to discuss his plan. And that despite the text pointing in that direction. Amazing that to some people, the woman can do no right no matter what!

By this point Rand has fully embraced his role as the savior of the world. His power is on an entirely different level that it was when he was shielded before - the old Rand would never have been able to destroy tens of thousands of trollocs by himself without a sangreal of some kind. That's without going into the whole ta'veren-pattern issue. Egwene has held the Oath Rod by this point, so what she says can only be what she truly believes - that she does not believe they could have held Rand there by force, regardless of whether or not he was shielded by a circle of thirteen.

This is simply not true in any way, shape or form for the vast majority of people here. It's a truly colossal strawman you have constructed - who are you to tell other people why they don't like Egwene?

 

I am struck by the contradiction inherent in this statement.

There is no contradiction. A great many people in both this topic and many other Egwene threads before have clearly stated their reasons for why they dislike her, backed up by evidence from the books to support their claims. I could dig through the forums and find dozens of examples. The argument that everyone here hates Egwene simply because she's a powerful woman is a sweeping generalisation with no basis in fact made in order to discredit those who dislike Egwene themselves rather than their arguments. In other words, the very definition of a strawman.

No, the Egwene-haters hatred of Egwene merely uses that episode as justification for an already present point-of-view. The point of view that the women who've been running the world for the last 3000 years have screwed everything all up, and they should just realize it and get in line behind the man who's gonna fix everything. Egwene is the legitimate heir of those women, both as Amryllin Seat to the Aes Sedai, the de facto rulers of the Westlands, and as the daughter of the Mayor of Emond's Field. The hatred for Egwene is the hatred of the matriarchy that has ruled the Westlands since the Breaking. Any specific reason given for hating Egwene ties right back into the reasons given for hating the Aes Sedai: arrogance, cold-heartedness, selfishness, manipulativeness, etc. In seeking out Egwene's scenes that could be, often uncharitably interpreted to display those traits, Egwene-haters display not so much their reasons for disliking Egwene, but rather their rationalizations for having already decided to do so.

This is simply not true in any way, shape or form for the vast majority of people here. It's a truly colossal strawman you have constructed - who are you to tell other people why they don't like Egwene?

Not at all. You know the WFs and Sorilea will be jockeying for the lead. It is stated plain as can be in the text. Of course each group will be doing so within the framework of a deal that fosters cooperation and understanding. Co-operation was the point and it was a huge step in the right direction, which in no way excludes each group looking to their best interests.

As a matter of interest, are there any statements to the effect that the other factions will be jockeying for the lead in the text that don't come from Egwene or her Aes Sedai supporters? I can't think of any that don't, and it sounds to me like typical Aes Sedai justifications as to why they always need to play puppet master. "Well we have to be in the best possible position, because if we aren't then someone else will. And that's just unacceptable!"

In any case I still hold to my previous statement that Egwene's choice of words were extremely poor. The Wise Ones used the phrase 'bands of iron' as a metaphor for White Tower domination by force. Instead of dismissing that metaphor entirely Egwene instead modifies it to 'bands of lace'. In other words, the domination is still there, but softer and more subtle. Instead of being overt steel cuffs the control is disguised and unseen, made to look pretty and harmless. If Egwene had simply thought that the Aiel were wrong and there would be no bands at all nobody would have a problem with the scene.

Perhaps you then would care to explain how the program gives the AS an advantage to do so? What is supported in the text is all three groups know they will be "playing" and the one who wants to be in the lead at any given time will have to "play best". Even you can not possibly think to argue this is a bad thing. "Maneuvering for the advantage of the WT" is what I said is happening, within the framework of the deal which fosters cooperation. Tying the Aiel to the WT to ensure total domination is quite another.

The problem is that it invalidates the argument that Egwene wants co-operation between all the different channeling factions. "Playing best" implies that everyone will start out equal but then one side will gain an advantage and come to dominate the others. Her comment of binding the Wise Ones and Windfinders with bands of lace instead of iron is either a very poor choice of words if she really does want co-operation or simply her saying that their methods are going to be far more subtle this time around.

So basicaly the Egwene hate all boils down to Jealousy.

Yeah we're all jealous of her. It has nothing to do with her rampant hypocrisy, her disgusting treatment of her friends, her being a personality chameleon with no true identity of her own, her incredibly implausible rise to power or her Mary Sue aura that drains the intelligence of all her political opponents within a hundred metre radius.

It's really quite sad because the Egwene-Amyrlin plotline could have been quite interesting if she had had to struggle for it at all. The narrative goes on and on about how she is only a puppet, how she has to move carefully and how all her puppeteers have so much more knowledge and experience than her. And yet she never suffers any serious setbacks except those that are part of her plans to control the Hall, which inevitably worked perfectly.

Egwene's bullying is far worse than Nynaeve's. Whenever Nyneave browbeats someone into doing something it's generally because she cares about them and genuinely believes it's the right thing to do. Egwene bullies people in order to cover her own ass, like her unforgiveable treatment of Nynaeve in T'A'R.

The writing makes it seem as though we are supposed to think that everything she does it perfect.

This is the main reason for my own dislike of Egwene.

It's clear that Robert Jordan always intended that Egwene would eventually become the Amyrlin - Moiraine says she has the talent as early as the first book - but he had no idea how to plausibly get her there. Thus we have her suddenly becoming an unrivalled political mastermind after a few talks with Siuan and Leanne. She outsmarts people with centuries more experience than her and everyone who opposes her turns into drooling braindead morons. The manner of Egwene's rise to power would have been far more excusable if Robert Jordan had made her Ta'veren, since it would explain away many of her more implausible successes.

This is what happens when your parents are your publisher. Had Paolini gotten a string of rejections first like most other authors he might actually have ended up writing something decent.

A decent editor would have been nice too, although Robert Jordan also had that problem. Oh, and some good research into Medieval tactics and warfare as well, because the way he uses siege weapons in his battles makes me cringe.

I thought there was some Belgaraid in the first book, as well. It's been a while since I read Eragon, I wasnt impressed with the book, though it was great that such a young author could get a book both completed and published.

If you look closer it's not as impressive as it seems. IIRC he was 19 years old when he first got Eragon published. He began writing the book at 16, but didn't finish until three years later. He was also guaranteed a publication since his parents own a vanity publishing company. He didn't have to go through the process of having his manuscript repeatedly rejected, edited and rewritten like other authors, and it really shows in the quality of his writing.

When I first read Eragon I was in my early teens and thought it was pretty good. When I discovered Eragon Sporkings years later and read through kippurbird's commentary I realised just how flawed it was. Hopefully Paolini will find his originality and come to regard the Inheritance Cycle as an old shame, much like Tolkien did with some of his earlier works.

Well the "good guys" still won. I'm still unconvinced that the Empire was evil.

It would have been better if Paolini had taken that idea and run with it, considering how many people share your view (Me included). It would have been an interesting twist, considering Galbatorix himself points out that the Varden were the ones stirring up trouble and that he was only reacting to them at the end of Brisingr.

If you're interested, there's a great fanfiction that focuses on Galby and the Empire in that exact fashion. 'The Storm Dragons' series by Opifex is a great read; Opifex herself is a published author now. It has a few problems, like the elves all being portrayed as evil to a man, but it's enjoyable if you take the view that Galbatorix wasn't such a bad guy.

It didn't have a happy ending? As someone who hates the Inheritance Cycle with a passion that might motivate me to read the last book. I might just wait for kippurbird to spork it though, she always manages to make me laugh.

It's not surprising considering how much Paolini's plagiarised from other works. Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Earthsea. It was only a matter of time before he stole from WoT.

You can't prove that Dark Rand couldn't have won TG. He could have destroyed the Borderlanders with the True Power. He might have left the world a terrible place after winning but claiming he couldn't have done it in that state of mind is impossible to prove unless AMOL shows otherwise.

I find Aviendha's vision difficult to believe. The Seanchan lack Circles, which could easily be used by Randland channelers to devastating effect. In the event of an all-out war with Egwene as Amyrlin, I don't see the Oath against killing lasting very long, particularly with her hatred for the Seanchan. The idea that every channeler captured is one more damane is also flawed since it takes time to train them, so it wouldn't necessarily instantly increase their forces.

I think the vision was more metaphorical and allegorical, showing what would happen if the Aiel remain as they are now.

It is understood amongst fans of Peake that the third book in the Gormenghast trilogy is not as good as the first two; it's even weirder, and lacks focus. Peake was dying from a kind of encephalitis during the years he struggled to write it, and the strain shows. Like Robert Jordan, he didn't get a chance to finish his masterpiece.

He was also suffering from shellshock and dementia if I remember rightly, which is why the third book becomes rather surreal. It's always a tragedy when an author dies before completing their masterwork, but at least the third book was finished and ended on a more or less fitting note.

It's very clear that most of the population of the Westlands have no idea how close the Last Battle is. Even those who should know better, such as the Aes Sedai, still cling to the belief that they have years, perhaps even decades to prepare for the Last Battle. Then there are those who are trying to ensure that the post Last Battle world is one worth living in. This is an admirable goal, but with the fatal flaw that unless the Last Battle is won by the Light all their efforts will have been for nothing. Essentially it's either wilful ignorance or misguided intentions.

The Hobbit is set in Middle Earth, and contains events and characters central to The Lord of the Rings, but that doesn't make it part of The Lord of the Rings.

The Hobbit is a special case since it was written before Lord of the Rings. In fact in later versions Tolkien went back and retroactively changed Gollum's personality so that he was less helpful towards Bilbo in order to make him fit in with his characterisation in Lord of the Rings. The Lord of the Rings is a sequel to The Hobbit rather than a prequel.

Then everyone else is wrong. UncleButcher has the right of it - while New Spring is connected to the series (it's a prequel, after all) it is not a part of it, any more than the BWB is. And if we count the BWB as well, then WoT is at least 16 books - and why stop there? The RPG must surely be a part of the series! No, WoT is a series, currently intended to be fourteen books, beginning with EotW, concluding with AMoL. Those books are all part of the series, other related works are not.

Something being a side story does not mean it isn't part of the series. Is New Spring required reading to understand the rest of the series? No. But so what? It provides background and details not mentioned in the main series. It's set in the same universe. It's listed on the series list in the front pages of every WoT book. As far as I'm concerned, as long as it's set in the WoTverse it's part of the series.

What? How is New Spring not a part of the series? It's set in the WoTverse, deals with events central to the main series and contains many of the same characters. I fail to see how it doesn't count.

Perhaps if we put XXX47 and Elan Tedronai in a topic together and lock it, their opposing viewpoints will annihilate each other a la the Cleansing and leave us with one pure, unbiased opinion on the WoT world? Someone call Luckers, I think it's worth a try. :3