If we were to dismiss the thematic unlikeliness of any of these characters to start channeling and look at the math,

Gawyn and Mat would be the strongest cases to make out of the two since they both share a sibling who can channel. That said, knowing that the "channeling gene" is a recessive, even if you were to look at it as a simple pairing of a single gene inherited from the parents:

 

Channeling gene: "c": Dominant "C" inability to channel, recessive "c" ability -- ability to channel manifests with "cc" pairing

Two carrier parents: Cc -- Cc

Possible offspring gene combinations: CC, Cc, Cc, cc

 

there'd be a 25% chance of each child inheriting the (cc) twin recessive genes. It's a 1 in 16 chance in this scenario for two siblings to both inherit the ability to channel.

 

Now, obviously it isn't as simple as that since there's also differences between "sparkers" and "learners" and channeling is also tied to the soul. It simply hasn't been explained further than that; for instance, are there more than one gene that controls channeling ability? And how do you quantify the ties of channeling ability to the "soul?"

 

That said, the genetic possibility for Mat or Gawyn to have inherited the ability to channel is there and not out of the realm of possibility. I highly doubt we'll ever delve into it within the context of the series, however.

 

Actually that way of looking at genetic inheritance is not supported anywhere anymore. It's completely wrong aproach and was deviced before generic inheritance was understood. So you could actually dissregard it compleatly since it has no bearing at all on anything. =)

 

The way genetic inheritance happens is a much more complex procedure. Don't ask me about the chance of one of them being a chaneller though since I have no idea of how you actually should calculate it.

As I said, it was an overly simplistic analysis. Don't have time to get into recombination or what have you. Plus I've not been following biology for the past 10 years. This was a simplified explanation of how genes are passed on as understood and taught at the time of RJ's development of his world so it shouldn't be disregarded completely, however, if it's what he based his reasoning off of.

If we were to dismiss the thematic unlikeliness of any of these characters to start channeling and look at the math,

Gawyn and Mat would be the strongest cases to make out of the two since they both share a sibling who can channel. That said, knowing that the "channeling gene" is a recessive, even if you were to look at it as a simple pairing of a single gene inherited from the parents:

Channeling gene: "c": Dominant "C" inability to channel, recessive "c" ability -- ability to channel manifests with "cc" pairing

Two carrier parents: Cc -- Cc

Possible offspring gene combinations: CC, Cc, Cc, cc

there'd be a 25% chance of each child inheriting the (cc) twin recessive genes. It's a 1 in 16 chance in this scenario for two siblings to both inherit the ability to channel.

Now, obviously it isn't as simple as that since there's also differences between "sparkers" and "learners" and channeling is also tied to the soul. It simply hasn't been explained further than that; for instance, are there more than one gene that controls channeling ability? And how do you quantify the ties of channeling ability to the "soul?"

That said, the genetic possibility for Mat or Gawyn to have inherited the ability to channel is there and not out of the realm of possibility. I highly doubt we'll ever delve into it within the context of the series, however.

I'm reading through this thread still (taken me several days on/off so far) but haven't seen yet what I'd like to know.

 

Has there been anything on Fains reaction or has he shown any effects due to Shadar Logoths destruction during the cleansing? Being such a big part of him/Mordeth I kind if expected there'd be something at least

 

Well, we have this.

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 25th, 2005

TOR Questions of the Week Part II (Verbatim)

 

WEEK 10 QUESTION

Now that Shadar Logoth is gone, (cool way to get rid of it by the way), has the evil power in Padan Fain/Mordeth/the Ruby Dagger decreased any? Has it driven him even more insane? Or since the next book is called Knife of Dreams, will all these questions be answered in it?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

The evil power in Padan Fain has neither decreased nor increased, nor has that in the dagger. The corruption in him was partly caused by the taint on Shadar Logoth, but it didn't constitute a real connection to the city. Remember that it was because he was Padan Fain, the Hound of the Shadow, that he was able to leave Shadar Logoth in his new condition after he merged with/absorbed Mordeth. (By the way, any other artifacts that might be lying around from Shadar Logoth would have the same long-term corrupting effect as the dagger. Fortunately, or unfortunately, any such thing would need to be metal or stone. The wood and fabric had decayed. It wouldn't have been pleasant to get a splinter from, say, a chair from Shadar Logoth.)

 

The destruction of Shadar Logoth has not driven Fain any more insane. I'm not certain he'd be able to function at all if he were any madder than he already is. But being insane doesn't make him any less dangerous, only less predictable. He no longer responds to situations or events in any sort of sane, logical manner. His abiding concerns are hatred of Rand al'Thor (and to a lesser degree Mat and Perrin) because he blames them for what the Dark One did to him in order to turn him into the Shadow's Hound, and hatred for the Dark One because of what the Dark One did to him. He goes after Rand because Rand is the easiest target in his mind, but if he can take a swipe at the Dark One or the Dark One's minions in some way that he felt would cause real harm, he'd leap at it.

 

So he hasn't changed in any way. As to his reaction, I don't know. I don't think he would have cared much about SL itself. He is too insane to predict anything he is thinking though.

Although it doesn't have anything to do with the cleansing and destruction of Shadar Logoth, I feel obliged to point out that Fain's abilities appear to be increasing overall as the series progresses. Whether this is caused by the corruption he carries within him growing and increasing in potency, or an improving understanding of his own abilities, or if it's simply just that his abilities are being displayed to the reader in a way that makes it looks like he's getting stronger, I couldn't say.

Edit: As for why the destruction of SL has no effect on Fain, the corruption within Fain has separated from the evil it grew from much like a seed falling from a tree.

P. 217 US hardcover: "When her foot hit the paving stone, the stone turned to dust. Her food sank through the shattered paving stone and hit packed earth."

Also I'm not sure why Ch. 11 "An Unexpected Letter" uses the Dragon icon. It's an Elayne POV.

I'm sure the confusion over Tam's placing is just an artifact of the back-and-forth timeline with the book split. Later in the book Tam does tell Perrin he needs to leave to go to Rand.

I'm kind of confused on that one as well, since I thought Siuan had been given the twisted ring that didn't require the Power. But then at the end of TGS it turns out hers was a copy.

They do sound awfully like contrails don't they. What would this mean? A group of technologically advanced survivors of Hawkwings fall in that world? A group of technologically advanced people exploring the mirror worlds?

 

I hope this is something the Encyclopaedia answers. I doubt we'll see it play out in the main books.

I don't really think they were contrails, but I'm open to the possibility, and willing to speculate. Here goes:

If Hawkwing was defeated by the trolloc hordes in the mirror world, he would never have had the chance to send his son off to Seanchan. Luthair would never have consolidated the continent, and, perhaps most importantly, the a'dam might have never seen widespread use under the command of non-channelers.

Without the upheaval brought by Luthair, Seanchan may have been conquered by Seanchan Aes Sedai (who largely struggled against each other for power, at some point one may have gained the upper hand) and Seanchan would have possibly seen a thousand years of Aes Sedai rule, during which a number of leaps in technology could be made.

I thought it was commonly accepted that hte seanchan version was the corrupted one, especially since it would be much easier to corrupt something that is being moved that somethign that is sitting still, and its more likely that Pendraeg had very few copies making the job that much easier

Either both the original Seanchan version AND the Kraethorn Cycle (neither of which mentioned Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne) are corrupted, or the version brought with Luthair (which does mention Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne) is corrupted. One or the other of these premises must be true -- unless all three are corrupted, in which case the gloves are off. If one or the other is pure, reason would say that Luthair's version is the corrupted one, especially considering that he was sent at a time when Ishy had the ear of Artur Hawkwing and would be in a prime position to corrupt the prophecies sent with Luthair to the Seanchan.

Did Moiraine know Verin was Black Ajah? 

Moiraine was certainly suspicious of Verin. She was aware of Verin's lie to Ingtar in TGH when she said "Moiraine sent me." Moiraine refuted this when she became aware of it. "I did not send her. She did that on her own," was the passage if I remember right. She also specifically told Rand to be as suspicious of Verin as of Alviarin in her farewell letter. Alviarin had just sent a letter to Rand in an attempt to draw him into an alliance (which contrasted Elaida's order that none but her treat with him...and, of course, Alviarin was Black), but why bring Verin into this? Obviously Moiraine had her suspicions.

Is Rand tied to the Horn of Valere as he seems to have the same relationship to the wheel as the Heroes of the Horn

The Dragon is spun out by the Wheel as it deems necessary, much like the Heroes, but one must think that at TG the Dragon must be living, so he couldn't be called by the Horn as the Heroes are. Unless, of course, he died before TG and was recalled by the Horn.....in which case we're entering the realm of pure speculation. So this relationship is kinda fuzzy. Anyone else have anything to add?

Possibly. Though, by Lews Therin's memories most of the tragedies really did happen, so I just assumed that the Forsaken had access to stolen sa'angreal during the War of Power.

 

We also know that the forsaken caused whole cities to be destroyed by balefire (which caused the very fabric of time to begin unraveling thus both sides deciding not to use balefire).

We actually don't know that it was the Forsaken who only destroyed these cities with Balefire. Consider Rand's speech to Cadsuane:

TGS, Chapter 23 "A Warp in the Air" p. 359

"I have seen balefire destroy cities," Al'Thor said, eyes growing haunted. "I have seen thousands burned from the Pattern by its purifying flames."

Rand's "purifying flames" remark makes me think that it wasn't just the Shadow who leveled cities with balefire, but that the Light might have also done so to cities so far fallen into the Shadow as to be deemed irretrievable. War is war, after all.

BTW, many of these atrocities committed by the Forsaken occurred as a result of their actions while administering conquered territories, i.e. at their orders -- such as ordering entire cities to be fed to the Trollocs, or the ordering of lynching of non-Darkfriends, or so forth. I'm not sure whether any of these mass killings were perpetrated by the Forsaken themselves rather than just at their direction (carried out by others).

For sure Semi wouldn't have killed him, she had far too much imagination and style for something so crude.

But Mat would have ended up wishing she had.

Obviously Tylin didn't really crack her teeth to use an RJ-ism about Mat to any of the Seanchan.

The odd thing is, nobody else did, since a lot of people in the Tarasin Palace knew who he was.

But then WoT-land works the way it does on consistent lack of communication. 

 

There's no real reason why anyone in the Palace with the ear of the High Lady's Truthspeaker would consider Mat as anything of consequence to be remarked upon. He was just the queen's emasculated toy -- and one who wasn't up to doing much after the Return, since he'd had a wall dropped on him. Tuon wasn't able to discern anything of his true identity while in Ebou Dar, and she took an immediate interest in him after seeing his ring. Perhaps it was an effect of his ta'veren nature that prevented his full name from reaching Semirhage's ears.

 

Moridin gave his order a few books too late, consistent with WOT-land lack of communication (especially among the Shadow, which was an intended theme from the get-go).

 

The Truth speaker herself was smart enough to know that her unruly charge found Tylin's Toy strangely interestingsince she was present at their first meeting. So she could have asked around just out of curiosity to find out why Tuon found him interesting. In which case, at minimum, from the servants, she'd have learnt his name (which may have been enough by itself since it's known to even lower-level Darkfriends) and maybe that he consorted with AS on a regular basis and treated them with disrespect. Very odd thing for a gigolo to do.

 

Did she not know the Lidia foretelling? Probably not. Did she not notice the ring with the foxes and ravens? Perhaps not - and if she didn't know the foretelling, the ring wouldn't tell her much.

So Mat's luck presumably had something to do with it.

Ah, good catch there. So either Mat got lucky that Semi didn't find out more about him (or she didn't know of the foretelling (which I doubt since she was so close to Tuon and it was explicitly noted that she punished the one who told her fortune while they were on a boat) or didn't notice the ring, or just didn't pursue the oddity she noticed), or she did find out about Mat and let him live for her own reasons and was lying to Moridin to avert suspicion for her letting him live. It makes me wonder whether the latter of those assumptions is the true one because she tried to twist Mat's kidnapping of Tuon to her own advantage (although I don't see how she could have foreseen his kidnapping of Tuon).

For sure Semi wouldn't have killed him, she had far too much imagination and style for something so crude.

But Mat would have ended up wishing she had.

Obviously Tylin didn't really crack her teeth to use an RJ-ism about Mat to any of the Seanchan.

The odd thing is, nobody else did, since a lot of people in the Tarasin Palace knew who he was.

But then WoT-land works the way it does on consistent lack of communication. 

 

There's no real reason why anyone in the Palace with the ear of the High Lady's Truthspeaker would consider Mat as anything of consequence to be remarked upon. He was just the queen's emasculated toy -- and one who wasn't up to doing much after the Return, since he'd had a wall dropped on him. Tuon wasn't able to discern anything of his true identity while in Ebou Dar, and she took an immediate interest in him after seeing his ring. Perhaps it was an effect of his ta'veren nature that prevented his full name from reaching Semirhage's ears.

Moridin gave his order a few books too late, consistent with WOT-land lack of communication (especially among the Shadow, which was an intended theme from the get-go).

Forgive me if this has already been asked elsewhere; I'm sure it has, but I couldn't find it. Before Lews Therin patched the Bore with the Hundred Companions using the seven seals, the Dark One was not fully loose in the world, although things were heading in that direction. My question is, when the seals all break, is their breaking going to fling the Dark One loose, or is the Dark One still going to be unable to pass fully through the Bore? Or is that something we don't know yet?

I imagine that its going to be like a small hole in a dam, as soon as the caulking is gone then the area around the original bore will start cracking so rand will have very little time

I don't think your imagination is far off from the truth by any means. IIRC when Demandred visits the DO in LoC prologue, he noticed that the Bore was wider than it had been before, although still held closed by the seals. I don't have a copy of LoC with me so I can't verify that, though. I imagine it as 3000 years of the DO trying to get his metaphorical fingers around the patch that keeps the Pattern closed, so the "fabric" of the Pattern around the seals is getting stretched.

The Dark One has to have some sort of cohesiveness, else once the initial Bore was drilled, he'd have been able to just leak out over the 100 or so years between the drilling and the War of Power (kind of like the Gholam slipping through a crack or sliding under a door) but instead was only able to touch the Pattern and slowly corrupt it. The War of Power started when his followers tried to rip the prison open to free him. How much larger the Bore needs to be for the DO to completely escape is anyone's guess.

In TGS, Rand flat out said there was no telling what would happen once he broke the seals, although we don't know how much of this was LTT's reflections and how much was Rand simply acknowledging his own ignorance on the matter. There was plenty of knowledge crossing back and forth between Rand's self-imposed mental partition of selves so who knows?

While it may certainly be true that the Forsaken don't really care if Mat and Perrin get offed anytime soon and have their own reasons for not being aggressive on the matter, from the passage I quoted earlier in KoD it's pretty obvious that they had no idea where either Mat or Perrin were at the time -- unless they (including Moridin) were all playing dumb, of which I doubt, since if Moridin knew he'd just take care of it himself or tell them where to find them. Instead, he commands the other Forsaken to find them for him. This means that Moridin doesn't know where they are and either isn't able, or doesn't have the time, to find them himself. And the other Forsaken haven't found them yet, either. That's a much simpler reason for why Mat and Perrin haven't been attacked yet.

Simple question: Why don't the Forsaken go after Mat and Perrin personally?  We've heard so often how they demolished whole cities in the AOL and are so greatly feared.  Why then don't they just Travel (they know where Mat and Perrin are), fireball away and split?  What are they afraid of?

If we look at the following passage from KoD, we can discern three things:

1. The Forsaken don't have a clue where Mat and Perrin are

2. The Forsaken can't make much use of their ta'veren nature to find them because the Pattern is all topsy-turvy and difficult to read.

3. The other Forsaken didn't even know what Mat and Perrin looked like before Ishy showed them. Classic failure to share information.

KOD, Chapter 3  pp. 148-149 (hardcover)

 

"If you want to kill someone," [Moridin] went on, "kill these two!" suddenly the semblances of two young men in rough country clothes stood in the center of the circle, turning so that everyone could get a good look at their faces... [Moridin continuing] "Perrin Aybara and Mat Cauthon are ta'veren, easily found. Find them and kill them."

Graendal laughed, a mirthless sound. "Finding ta'veren was never as simple as you made out, and now it's harder than ever. The whole Pattern is in flux, full of shifts and spikes."

"Perrin Aybara and Mat Cauthon," Semirhage murmured, inspecting the two shapes. "So that is what they look like. Who knows, Moridin. If you had shared this with us before now, they might already have been dead."

Moridin's fist came down hard on the arm of his chair. "Find them! Make doubly sure that your followers know their faces. Find Aybara and Cauthon and kill them...[and so on]

The "make sure your followers know their faces" part and Mat finding the portraits in TGS tells us that the Forsaken, unable to find them directly due to the above-mentioned problems, are resorting to having their followers find Mat and Perrin for them rather than waste the time trying to guess where in the Light they might be. If a Darkfriend reported back to them once positive ID was made instead of trying to take them in person, I'd assume that one of the Forsaken might try to go after them directly.

Is Beslan gay?

 

I know this sounds silly but I was re-reading Winter's Heart and when Beslan is talking to Matt about helping him leave he says:

 

"My mother won't be pleased if she learns I am helping her pretty leave Ebou Dar, Matt.  She will marry me to someone with a squint and a mustachelike a Taraboner foot soldier."

 

I was thrown a little, unless he simply meant that she would find some woman with facial hair and a squint.  But it occurred to me that he might have been talking about a guy!!

 

 

Think it's just his fears of married off to an ugly woman.

Beslan does after all fight duels after having affairs with women.

Unless that's sort of complicated over-compensation and he doesn't seem such a complex character.

Been a long time since I read aCoS, but I don't remember him fighting duels because of affairs, just that he laments having to visit the widows of the losers. I do, however, remember him wanting to go drinking and finding women with Mat (I think). I don't think Beslan is gay.

Is Beslan gay?

 

I know this sounds silly but I was re-reading Winter's Heart and when Beslan is talking to Matt about helping him leave he says:

 

"My mother won't be pleased if she learns I am helping her pretty leave Ebou Dar, Matt.  She will marry me to someone with a squint and a mustachelike a Taraboner foot soldier."

 

I was thrown a little, unless he simply meant that she would find some woman with facial hair and a squint.  But it occurred to me that he might have been talking about a guy!!

 

I think the idea was that she would marry him to an extremely ugly woman, and Beslan phrased it this way because he finds facial hair on a woman highly unattractive.  As far as I know, there are no references to male homosexuality in the WoT at all; more importantly, even if there were, I very much doubt that any WoT society would use the term marriage for a homosexual relationship.

Only potential reference to male homosexuality is in New Spring when Sierin Vanyu (sp?) is raised to the Amyrlin and dismisses all men from the Tower staff, including those who "had no liking for women at all." RJ's said homosexuality has really only come out in the open in the context of matriarchal organizations such as the White Tower, so while he does have gay characters he hasn't made mention of male homosexuality (although it is not a big deal in the Westlands).

What happened to the Waygate in Shadar Logoth, the one that Rand put a saidin guardfence around (LoC ch21), when he nuked the place while cleansing saidin of the taint?

 

The Waygate was probably obliterated. We know that the gates themselves can be physically damaged with "relative" ease because Moiraine cut a hole in the one near Fal Dara. That brings up another question, though: what happened to the connection within the Ways? Did the destruction of the Waygate sever the connection like pruning a branch from a tree (which I suspect would be the case), or is there now an opening to the Ways that can't be seen from the outside and is now sitting in the middle of the air where the Waygate used to be? Hmm.

Have we come across ter-angreal that make other *angreal?

 

Not, is it possible, but have we seen it.

 

 

Probably the closest thing to this we've seen mentioned on-screen is the ter'angreal the Aes Sedai have that makes fancloth for the Warders' cloaks.

It was in the books.  Egwene saw it in her Accepted test, and when she came out of the arch, she asked Sheriam about it, and Sheriam explained it.  Later in the book, Liandrin (who heads a group of thirteen Black Ajah) tells the girls that they are sending for Myrddraal, so there is an implication there that it was going to be used.  Sheriam said it hadn't been done since the Trolloc Wars.  It hasn't been mentioned much since then.

Has it been mentioned at all since then? I can't recall any other instances of it coming up. All the other info we have is from RJ, that I know of.

Can using a Terangreal be sensed?  If i use the BF rod, can it be sensed?  If yes, how is it sensed?  by men?  by women?  by both?  how by both???

It most likely depends on the ter'angreal. The ring Egwene was given that allows the user to enter T'A'R, for instance, doesn't require use of the Power at all (the user just has to have it touching the skin when sleeping) and probably can't be detected. Others, such as the Bowl of Winds, can obviously be sensed, as the Power was noted arcing across the continent. The user of the BF rod can certainly be sensed if she doesn't mask her ability to channel (during KOD the Black Ajah sister using the rod was picked off by accurate lightning, although the Sea Folk who got her might have just been able to see where she was). If a certain ter'angreal makes a weave of the Power and it doesn't also invert the weave, then it can be sensed just as if someone was channeling.

also, do Terangreal use either the male or female half or both?  Or can each be possible?

The Bowl of Winds used both Saidin and Saidar -- even though only women were channeling -- so we know that certain ter'angreal can draw on both sides of the Power if designed to do so. Also, some objects of the Power are designed to either only work for women or only for men (such as Angreal, or the a'dam) so logic follows that some ter'angreal could be designed to use just one or the other.

also, if the latter is the case, is making different terangreal dependant upon it being made with either half, or both together

Good question. As far as I know, there isn't a good answer to that. We don't know as much as we'd like to about making ter'angreal -- mostly because the Third Agers don't know much, either. What we do know is that the One Power always is stronger when both the male and female halves work together, so certain ter'angreal would probably function better if they were designed to use both halves, meaning being designed by both a man and a woman. I would also suspect that some ter'angreal made with Saidin would function better than those made with Saidar (perhaps ones that make use of Fire and Earth, since men are generally stronger in these) and vice versa.

we know Elayne makes terangreal with the female half.  maybe the dream rings are weak b/c they should be made with the male half?

No clue. Elayne's puzzled out that there is a common weave to ter'angreal that require use of the Power, and another common weave to ter'angreal that simply make use of the Power. She still doesn't know very much, though, and pretty much can only make copies of existing ter'angreal. The dream rings she made for the rebel Hall, for instance, were copies of another ter'angreal -- and when you make a xerox copy of a photograph, it isn't going to be as sharp an image as the original. Likewise, some of Elayne's copies were "flawed" (including the only one they have left after Sheriam's little crime spree). 

I keep seeing references to 13x13 but I don't know what it means.

A circle of 13 Aes Sedai (somehow) linked with 13 Myrddraal is capable of turning a person who can channel to the Shadow. 

To clarify, a circle of 13 Aes Sedai channeling through 13 Myrddraal can forcibly turn a person who can channel to the Shadow against his or her will. This is an inherent weakness channelers have since we don't know of any way a non-channeler can be unwillingly turned to the Shadow. RJ has said that using the 13/13 trick corrupts the individual's personality, enhancing the darker traits (so it wouldn't be like Verin who swore to the Shadow but spent her BA career working to undermine them) but otherwise we don't know more about the specifics (such as how the channeling through the Fades part works). We are almost certainly going to see this happen in the future, since Brandon has called the 13/13 trick the "gun on the mantle" in the first act of a play that gets used by the third act.