Fully agree with Testy. I'd imagine if anyone had suggested it the WO's would've been horrified. As it was I'm sure there were plenty of furious off-screen discussions where the Asha'men had to convince the women the taint was gone.

Directly after Malden there was no bloody good reason other than plot expediency to stop Grady popping of to Tear on his own to round up a few helpers. Thank God that whole interminable section of story is finally over and Perrin's found his mojo.

And it seems like their power will be under the command of the Forsaken fairly exclusively.

It looks like Elayne might be the first in a verrrrry long time - I don't recall reading anything suggesting anyone does. I'd imagine having to bury your husband, children and grandchildren would be a fairly heavy price. It's probably one of those customs that's so old it's treated as law.

Hmmm. Curiouser and curiouser. Will be very interesting to see how RJ's wild card fits into the final showdown...

I was re-reading the Great Hunt, and a question occurred to me: WHY was Fain so dead set on getting Rand to Falme? What was his plan? I don't recall that being ever explained.

Wasn't that related to the Dark Prophecy scrawled on the dungeon wall at Fal Dara? I can't remember exactly how it was any more significant than any other place, seanchan arrival notwithstanding... And Fain's PoV on meeting High Lord Turak doesn't indicate any previous agreements or such with any seanchan df's. Maybe it was just one of those commands implanted deep into Fain's tortured little mind at Shayol Ghul.

In TEotW when Aginor/Balthamel are asked how they found the party, Balthamel points to Mat and says something about an old enemy.

Was that him mistaking Mat for being LTT reborn or something to do with Manetheren/the Shadar Logoth dagger?

 

I'd guess it was the latter, even though it doesn't seem to make much sense since all that happened long after the Sealing, unless the Forsaken who were less bound could percieve events as Ishamael could. I imagine being trapped in the same prison as the antithesis of creation can do strange things to your mind if you aren't in a coma like the others were.

 

Old enemy/old friend refers to Shadar Logoth and the corruption of the dagger.

But Asha is right - Balthamel was safely snoozing away in the whatever it's called during the time Aridhol was being remade into Shadar Logoth. That all happened a good ways after the War of Power and the Breaking and whatnot.

This is actually really interesting - I thought Ishy was behind Mordeth's twisting of Aridhol, but he'd be Balthamel's buddy, don't recall anything about any particular animosity there. Good find Asha, would like to see what Luckers/Yoniy0/Terez made of it? Curious...

Why has doing that become very hard work? Partly because Jordan has overplayed the "reluctant hero" bit, maybe the biggest fantasy cliche of all. And partly due to how he has portrayed all of the side characters. We are left, after twelve books, with very few characters to root for. At this point, for me, Furyk Karede is just about the only one who hasn't been a disappointment. The other characters read like a Who's Who of negative traits. Jordan has belabored everyone's shortcomings to the point that all of the characters have become tiresome. Even the heroes. Having faults, being human is fine. Being unremittingly selfish and stupid and childish isn't ( unless you're a Bad Guy, they're supposed to be hatefully selfish ).

 

I agree with you to a small degree about overstating the negatives and and ignorant behavior of characters. Rand, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne, and Nyn(though mostly trivial) can have annoying moments.

 

However, you are overexaggerating in this regard. Logain, Loiol, Dobraine, and Dyelin at the very least are examples of characters making selfless decisions for the good of everyone.

 

I really do agree with you about some things....but I still think you are dead wrong about Cads.

 

 

And as Yoniy0 says, would it have killed her to at least apologise for not securing the collar better, with Semi in the house? I know it may be true that no defences available to her would've been adequate, but dammit she could have just apologised. The fact is, not two days after realising her similarities to Semi - which would, you might think, encourage some deeper self-examination - she carries on regardless, no dent in her confidence visible at all.

 

Yes, it would have killed her to do that.

 

Rand wanted to kill Cadsuane at that moment. Whether it was the True Power clouding his mind, his pent up frustration at Cads, or his disgust with himself and general deadening due to what he had almost done to Min...he wanted an excuse to kill Cads. Her apologizing probably would have given him an excuse in that moment.

 

I don't get what you mean about similarities. Why should she alter her behavior? If you mean she should have seen that Semi could escape and devine where Cads had hidden an object that I don't beleive Semi should have even known she had....I don't think you can blame that on Cads. It seems like the only faults you guys can find with her is that she's not quite smart enough to anticipate every single action/reaction possible in the universe!

 

Oh, and if you mean that Cads should have changed her image because it was similiar to Semi's? Not at all. Everyone from teachers to the president to dictators use certain images of authority to lead. That doesn't mean just because one does something horrible with that ability another shouldn't use it for positive things.

I'm confused. How would her apologising have given Rand an excuse to kill Cadsuane?? Surely someone admitting they've erred is more likely to mitigate against the offence than add to it??

As I said, it is entirely possible that Caddy's box provided the best available line of defence against shadowspawn/forsaken/dfs/whatnot: my point is that Caddy and co know next to nothing about how the Forsaken and their minions work. They know the BA exists, and Darkfriends here and there: they know other Forsaken wander the land. Under those circumstances, is it really asking too much for one of them to think, "Hey, we've caught a Forsaken here, what if someone comes to rescue her? Our biggest VIP is living under the same roof, and there's also a very rare item of Power that can be used to control him - maybe we should beef up the defences..."

As regards Semi herself, when Caddy is thinking about how Semi might be broken, she ponders how her own reputation and image is quite important to her, and to be humiliated would probably be the hardest punishment to bear. Now my point is, if you find sigificant similarities between your own character and that of a 3000 yr old sadist whose name is used to frighten children, is that not enough to set off alarm bells??!

Luckers' original post touched on all of this. Cadsuane's strength is her experience with understanding the relationships between people. She's annoying because she's usually right. She's abrasive because she knows she's usually right.

See, here is where you lost me.

Any amount of situations had arisen to show Cads how suspicious Rand had become, a good many of them well before her exile.

So early in the game, after the Fling in the Fog, Min warns her of how he might not be particularly pleased to wake up to AS faces.

And as Yoniy0 says, would it have killed her to at least apologise for not securing the collar better, with Semi in the house? I know it may be true that no defences available to her would've been adequate, but dammit she could have just apologised. The fact is, not two days after realising her similarities to Semi - which would, you might think, encourage some deeper self-examination - she carries on regardless, no dent in her confidence visible at all.

Rand was so mad at her, that in spite of Min's viewings, he exiled her. It is clear that drastic measures were needed, but certainly some of the risk could have been lessened by removal of Cadsuane's fingerprints from the plan.

If she understands people's relationships so well, HOW does she not grasp the magnitude of the chasm in her relationship with Rand? Did she actually think DarkRand would be totally fine with Tam coming at her behest?

I do, for what it's worth, spare a tiny bit of blame for Min and Nyn there - it seems like they got the detail of the plan the night of the Great Balefire- they seemed to be a bit more clued in.

I find myself having very contradictory thoughts on Caddy. Yes, she does *eventually* acknowledge that Nynaeve's not a teen having a tantrum. Ok, she knows lots about life, the universe and everything. Yes, there is a bloody good reason it felt so good when Tam stood up to her. She is in many ways, the epitomy of what's wrong with the AS as a whole. A petty dictator with a bit of power, usually surrounded by people with insufficient backbone to say No to her.

 

But she also has the best qualities of Aes Sedai as well. For example, her relationship with the Wise Ones, her respect for the Sea Folk and the Asha`man, etc etc. And I am not sure if she is again st people saying no to her as you make her out to be; granted the Aes Sedai under her command do so, but Aes Sedai i general defer to those who are more powerful then them. However, the few times Nynaeve and Min have stood up to her about something decent, cadsuane has acknowledged them.

 

Elaida is a petty dictator. Cadsuane is far far better then Elaida in basically every regard. Cadsuane may demean Rand in various ways, but she rarely demeans others. She would have been an awesome Amrylin Seat imo.

Hmmm. i grant you the WO's, alright. I think she's wary, rather than respectful of the Seafolk. Ditto Asha'man.

Perhaps I misspoke the 'No' thing: you're right, that's a problem of culture (in most ways) rather than personality.

Yes, Elaida's a nutter. But that is a verrrry low bar!

And she did demean Tam most terribly. Really, that's just the most ridiculously rude way to behave. There's neither reason nor excuse for it: any defence of her being all freaked about Rand is moot, because she had a huge hand in creating said situation.

She probably would indeed have been an impressive Amyrlin: I think Formidable is the word! Think she would have been bored stiff though.

I think she turned down Sittership cos they're a clutch of cackling biddies who'd argue an issue til Doomsday rather than do anything about it: she's too bossy for it, ha! She turned down Amyrlinship/didn't run/whatever because it usually means being chained to the desk and having to fight with the Hall to get anything done. It's precisely because she likes control that she refused that one.

To be honest, I think lust for adventure drove a lot of her life decisions before Rand came along.

Bob - I understand the anti-Faile, but in general, she's not really that much of a whingebag, is she? Like really, in proximity to her hubby, she's in the ha'penny stakes. To paraphrase Rand in Far Madding, [Masema] just needed killing, is all... She saw the need, saw Perrin wasn't really gonna do it, so she got it done fairly efficiently. Go on, points for that?

I find myself having very contradictory thoughts on Caddy. Yes, she does *eventually* acknowledge that Nynaeve's not a teen having a tantrum. Ok, she knows lots about life, the universe and everything. Yes, there is a bloody good reason it felt so good when Tam stood up to her. She is in many ways, the epitomy of what's wrong with the AS as a whole. A petty dictator with a bit of power, usually surrounded by people with insufficient backbone to say No to her.

The single most important thing about her, though, is the fact that she gambled everything - world, wheel, her shiny hair baubles- on Rand coming to, and not stepping over the edge.

He nearly KILLED his dad. I'd say that's hanging on by the fingernails. Cadsuane knows of Lews Therin's Kinslaying in a dusty, historical way: in the fracas with Semi & Min, Rand was aware of it in a very visceral way.

So, you've got Crazy, Choedan Kal and manipulation. How in the world could she possibly think the odds were good enough?? There's no point saying it worked out fine. That's hindsight. As far as we know, the only glimpses of the future Caddy has are Min's.

With her own eyes, Caddy saw the evolution of DarkRand: if the woman actually had the wits God gave goats, she would have taken her fine idea about getting Tam to talk sense into him, and given it to Nynaeve. Nynaeve is probably the only woman, at that point, (besides lovers, obv) to still have a decent relationship with Rand. Nyn would have been perfectly capable of fetching Tam, dropping him in front of Rand, and saying, "Rand we love you, but you can't go on like this. Yada yada yada." Still no guarantee of outcome, but a wee bit less Paranoid Nutter with Whopping Great Sa'angreal, surely.

Book would prob have been very boring if I wrote it...

Edited to remove results of 2am typing in bed.

Prob Birgitte, really. I'm sure the DO is delighted to have one less Hero on the end of the Horn.

A Hall meeting at Murandy, one of them I think is another scene that mentions it.

hmm... Must check that out.

Yeah, I re-read NS a couple months back, and what I'm thinking of is actually far more detailed than that, iirc- like, with precise instructions on how long to hold breaths inhaling, exhaling etc.

Weird.

Hugely silly question here, but I live to entertain.

I seem to recall a scene where someone explains to someone else precisely how the temp-ignoring trick works that allows AS stay all dignified regardless of weather conditions. Did I dream this scene, or can someone elaborate on those few details?

@Lynander:

2: happened off screen. Rand talks v briefly of it in either the prologue or chapter one.

Well there would have to be some women in it, men can't link without women.

@Norellyjustsomeguy: thanks for that. It does make sense, I guess.

Yeah, but LTT was bellowing in his lugs, "We can't use that, it is him!"

I think very quickly Rand realised what it was.

*Bump* !!

Is it possible that the DO is depleted by people using the True Power? If it's addictive, and binds his followers more closely to him, why's he so stingy with it?

Any ideers?

Is it possible that the DO is depleted by people using the True Power? If it's addictive, and binds his followers more closely to him, why's he so stingy with it?

@Fain's Nose - you're quite right there. But if Dyelin had took the throne, how would she have resisted Rahvin?

She would have been better off going to the White Tower for aid.

After Morgase escapes Caemlyn, why does she go to Amadicia of all places? Because it's a stable nation that Rand hasn't conquered yet? With that logic, why not go to Illian (I know, Sammael was there, but she didn't know that). I ask because Whitecloaks don't typically go over well in Andor, and Amadicia is basically the Whitecloaks' country.

 

 

Besides her being a Trakand, and thus plain stupid, (not outlandish, by the way), Morgase didn't go straight to Amador.

She went to Kore Springs first, but Gareth Bryne was gone haring off after Siuan, and then she had a little think.

She realised Rand controlled (by rumour at least) pretty much everywhere else that would have been useful, that Ghealdan was in a heap, and then her Rahvin/Elaida?Siuan-hiding-Elayne instilled anti White Tower prejudice kicked in, so she went to Amador, where they really know how to hate AS.

 

 

Ignoring the part where it's against the law for her to set foot in Amadicia?

I dunno... 'cos she's a plain stupid Trakand?!

The Luc 'section' is Andoran Luc, Tigraine's brother, and thus Rand's maternal uncle. The other part is Isam ,who IIRC is Lan Mandragoran's uncle/cousin. The united pair seem to be called Slayer.