Boromir: Misuderstood, Well-Intentioned Bloke..Or..Just a Glory-Hungry Bad Guy?

[The Fisher King]

I will say that last weekend I watched movies 2 and 3 since they showed them on the tv and i reread most of Fellowship this past week.

 

Ok...Peter Jackson and (The Brilliant) Sean Bean certainly want us to see this man as a sympathetic figure...a tragic anti-hero...

 

Buuut...i don't know if I buy that. I really don't.

 

I read the book this past week and Tolkien presenst Boromir in a rather stand-offish way, to my perceptions...

 

I understand that Sean Bean ('s Boromir) truly wanted to do good and thought that if they destroyed the One Ring that they would be destroying a weapon that could help his people...You really see (Especially in The Extended Cut DVD) Bean slowly succumbing to The Ring of Power's corruptive influence...

 

In the book though...I see him as arrogant and haughty...Jealousies of Aragorn run rampant throughout his character and you see very litle of any sincere desire to do good emenating from his persona.

 

In the book, Boromir is not presented like, say Gandalf The Grey or Strider, who you warm to almost immediately...

 

Gondor... From a strategic, military and geographical sense, is certainly CRUCIAL, but I never got the sense that his people were foremost on Boromir's mind in the book...

 

He coveted it, plain and simple.

 

That, at least, is my opinion.

 

But, I'd love yours...

 

 

Fish

[Völundr]

I am not too sure.

 

Tolkien does not go much into emotional development with his characters except indirectly, since he tried to emulate format from Icelandic epics, only putting it into novel format. So you get words, but a lot of times, you do not get a specific feeling to the words of certain characters, so you must create them in your own mind. I have not read the Fellowship in a long while (personally, I like The Silmarillion and The Books of Lost Tales much better than the core trilogy itself), but does not Boromir admit his wrong in his death? Or am I getting confused with solely the movie? I cannot remember. But if he did, one cannot say he was all vanity and flaw; generally in those sorts of myths, when a character admits he has "sinned" or done some sort of wrong and shows some abasement for it, the author makes of him either an example of honor able to come forth from the vile, or a pathetic example of "this is what happens" when you indulge in the perverse against your grace or others. I think Tolkien embodied in Boromir a bit of both of these themes, and if that is the case, I just think Boromir is an example of the weaknesses of mankind that reflects ourselves, to be loathed consciously but a kindred spirit to our basic nature, inherently weak when inspected philosophically.

 

[The Fisher King]

Thanks for your insight, Volundr - and also for your input on Return of the King.

 

I like your posts alot.

 

 

Fish

 

P.S.  Oh, how were those novel written that you referenced that Tolkien was trying to emulate? Just a commitment to LESSENING deep, internal characterization - is that what you meant?

[Völundr]

Well, glad they helped.  :) No, no, I was not referring to a novel. Icelandic epics, or sagas, along with Norse and other Teutonic myths are what I meant Tolkien was emulating in a modern form. Tolkien was well-versed in Germanic saga, and if you know a lot about Germanic myth, his idea of Middle Earth is just basically the ancient earth of these myths resurrected with a few different ways of presentation. It is really fascinating stuff; if you are interested in it, I highly recommend researching it. I like to study Teutonic myth, as did Tolkien, and that was basically what got me into him. I can go on forever about this stuff, so I think I should stop.  :-X

 

If you have read Beowulf in a more traditional format, a Christian example of these ancient pagan myths, that gives you a rough idea of what Tolkien used to build his craft at writing; they are not too focused on emotional development in them.

[Hallow]

Boromir is a hero, plain and simple. Yes he was mistrusting and jealous of Aragorn at first, which is to be expected. This is the son of the Steward, the future ruler of Gondor. To suddenly get a new heir to the throne thrown in his face is a little hard to swallow.

 

Also, with the ring business. You can't really blame him for that. A recurring theme in the books is the fact that the will of men is weak, and the ring of power has a mind of it's own. Even Isildur, a pure blooded Numenorean from one of the great houses of Numenor, High king of both Arnor and Gondor and lord of Minas Ithil was seduced by it's power.

 

In the end, Boromir redeemed himself and his mistakes by protecting the hobbits to his death.

[The Fisher King]

Hallow...Thanks for your input!

 

And thats a good point about it being so well pointed out consistently that the Ring's whole deal was how it corrupted Weak Men.

 

So, just to play, The Devil's Advocate with you...I'll ask you (and anyone who feels like answering and chimining about it lol) are you saying the Mr Boromir was an exceptionally weak man?

 

If you want my honest opinion, I DO think so - that he was exceptionally an weak man.

 

My reasoning is because there are plenty of other men who WERE exposed to the Ring that were not Corrupted by it - Strider and Gandalf are just two examples that I can think of. So, I guess, by that reasoning, that they were just alot stronger than Boromir?

 

 

Fish

[reyler]

It's not that Boromir was specifically weak-willed, his fatal flaw was actually his pride. His belief that the Ring could be used, by Men in general, or by him specifically, that he had a great enough spirit to control it and not be dominated, that's how it got inside his head. Boromir believed that the strength of Men was equal to the strength of Sauron. Gandalf and Aragorn both understood that the Ring was more powerful than they were. It's kind of like, Boromir really only lost to the Ring because he entered the fight (and didn't know what he was up against), while Aragorn and Gandalf and most everyone else at the Council of Elrond knew their limits, knew the Ring would kick their ass, and didn't step through the ropes. Frodo sort of knew what he was getting into, and he just kind of huddled in the corner until the Ring beat him down. It took actually succumbing to the Ring for Boromir to realize he wasn't up to the challenge; nobody was.

 

And for the record, Gandalf wasn't actually a Man, he was a Maia, the same class of spirits as Sauron, though probably much lower in power.

[The Fisher King]

Reyler, a few important things:

 

1 I really consider Gandalf to be more ''Istari'' (as was Sauraman The Wise, The Head).

 

2 Youre Avatars kinda Hot (Ok, maybe that ones not actually 'Important').

 

3 Yes, I like the way you said it about Borimir: It really was Pride that came before his fall.

 

4 It was weird, Percieving Frodo's gradual being affected by The One Ring. In the book, even considering that Tolkien was a rather sparse author, I still never got a sense that it was really wearing him down. Obviously a movie is much more visual, but, even so, it still made it much more obvious. In the book, I percieved it more that Frodo was taking it to Mt Dhoom because he felt like he had a job to do - that it was his task...whereas in the films, It seems like he is trying to get it there so that he can escape it before it completely overwhelms and corrupts him.

 

I can understand it if Jackson altered Frodo a bit and its cool...Im not one of those that whined about all the ''changes'' in the movies that weren't true to the books. I understood why the hobbits ''disapeared'' in TTT and I understand why Viggo's Aragorn was more reluctantly portrayed than in the book.

 

That said, would I have LIKED to have seen The Scouring of The Shire? Of course.

 

But I was satisfied.

 

I didn't care that Liv was all through the movies and Arewn Evenstar was actually only briefly in the books. And I didn't care that The Army Of The Dead wasn't actually at Pelenor Fields. They still fought for Aragorn - it was just earlier in the book - it still worked well.

 

As for Boromir...I could watch Sean Bean paint a house...and I DID feel like he TRIED to infuse Borimir with a sense of Nobility, but he still came across as MUCH weaker in spirit than any of the other ''Good Guys'' - IMHO.

 

He was certainly better than the infinitely ANNOYING (listen to the commentary if you don't believe me) John Rhys-Davies and his portraying of Gimli as a Drunk Lunatic the whole time.

 

Oh, speaking of the commentaries though...listen to the actors who play Pippen and Merry do their commentaries on the three Extended DVDS and you will literally laugh out loud about 4,000 times.

 

Miranda Otto = HOTTNESS...Noble's Denethor and Hill's Theoden BRILLIANT.

 

Great movies.

 

Shame Ian Holm aint no be gonna Bilbo in The Hobbit.

 

 

Fish

[reyler]

Istari is more of a job title. They're still Maiar.

 

You can call it coming off as weak-willed; I call it coming off as visibly conflicted, which, due to highly external style Tolkien favored, he doesn't really appear to be until the trip down Anduin. He had a very good reason to look to whatever source of strength was available. In fact, I probably should have pointed out, when I stated that he believed the strength of Men could equal the strength of Sauron, that his job sort of requires him to think this way. If you want to talk about who got wussified in the films, look at Frodo, who never once really justifies why he should be the Ringbearer.

[The Fisher King]

Rey,

 

Istari is more of a job title. They're still Maiar.

 

Good Point.

 

If you want to talk about who got wussified in the films, look at Frodo, who never once really justifies why he should be the Ringbearer.

 

This is indeed one of my biggest gripes with the movies (and my gripes with the movies are veeeery few) Peter Jackson says repeatedly that Frodo's reasoning for being Ringbearer Guy is to ''Save The Shire'' ...But...Post-Rivendell, Frodo never mentions The Shire again...In fact, theres a moment late in ROTK when Samwise is reminiscing about good times back home in The Shire and Frodo doesn't even REMEMBER The Shire LOL!!!

 

Basically, at The Council of Elrond (in the movies) They are all debating the issue (right after Drunk Lunatic Gimli tries to smash the ring, screams, loses his balance, falls down and rolls over) and completely Out Of The Blue Frodo stands up and is all like ''I think I'd like to do it!''

 

 

Fish

[reyler]

First, Frodo being unable to recall the experience of the Shire is in the book, and it's due to the Ring at that time having nearly devoured his mind. Sam is attempting to rouse him out of the delirium he's in as a result of being in possession of the Ring so close to Orodruin. Anyway, I meant he never does anything to justify the responsibility he is given. In the book, he strikes at the Witchking at Weathertop, and defies him again at the Ford despite the shard of the Morgul blade making him significantly weaker to them and the Ring urging him to give in to them. He displays the ability to resist their influence.

 

Second, Gimli doesn't just fall down, he is blown back by the force of the Ring most definitely not being destroyed when he hits it with his axe. Did you miss where the blade of his axe had completely shattered from the impact? The whole incident was meant to display the veritable indestructability of the Ring. It's one of the things PJ did to try and show that the Ring is an immediate threat in its own right, and not just an inanimate object. Probably not something Tolkien would have had the Ring doing, but it gets the point across better than a lot of talk.

 

Anyway, it's easier to pick at the things they got wrong than talk about the things they got right.

[The Fisher King]

Rey

 

Anyway, it's easier to pick at the things they got wrong than talk about the things they got right.

 

I agree. Did you see my post above where I call my gripes with the films ''very few'' and say that I think they are ''Magnificent'' ? Theyre brilliant, but nothings perfect and I enjoy looking at them analytically...Speaking of which...

 

Great analysis of the Gimli/Ring thing...I understood it...but just found Gimli's impetus for trying that action very silly.

 

This is just my opinion. I do not feel that it can be denied that Gimli was purposefully the Comic Relief for the movies. It was painful.

 

Theres a difference between TRYING to be funny and just naturally BEING funny. I thought Dom Monaghen and Billy Boyd were just naturally HYSTERICAL...I thought Gimli was embarrasing. But thats just me - different folks like different strokes.

 

One analogy I might make for this is Mat Cauthon..and what people say about his portrayal in TGS as opposed to the rest of the series (TRYING to be comic relief as opposed to his own true nature just BEING funny)...I am NOT as harsh in my opinion of Mat in TGS as many, but I think its a good analogy to use here in this instance.

 

 

Fish

[OptimusPrime]

I myself think the ring tempted him. Now I never read the books other than the Hobbit, but IIRC the ring hadnt predicted that Bilbo would find it. Since it wanted to be free, I always imagined the ring exploited Boromir in an attempt to free itself of Frodo. It couldnt have done that with, say, Aragorn, because his good will was too strong, whereas Boromir was the one with the vulnerability. How can the ring be put to good use in the hands of a Hobbit, when a warrior could use it to win wars?

 

Of course, usually films deviate from the books so I dont know exactly what Boromir was like originally, but I always got the impression from the film that the ring deliberately tempted Boromir.

 

So yeah, going off the film only, I think Boromir was misunderstood.

[Myyrth]

I think Boromir represents humanity as a whole.  Noble but flawed by their lust for power and pride (he is a good example of a Norse hero, proud and noble but still flawed).  We also must remember that Gondor has been experiencing a long and slow decline in prestige in power over the years since Elendil came and founded the human kingdoms after the fall of Numenor.  Easterling invasions, plague and the slow decay of their alliances has left them a desperate people.  With the rise of the Shadow in the east Gondor stands on the brink of annihilation.  Boromir feels the crushing weight of his responsibilities, something in his heart tells him that what he wants is wrong but the expectations of his people and of his father.  The insecurities he feels at suddenly being thrown into a fellowship with the Heir of Isildur as well as the insidious power of the Ring itself all seem more than compelling.  Not a single one of us could have lasted as long as Boromir in a similar situation, the men of that age were still stronger of mind and body than we are today in this diminished era.

 

I found him to be a very sympathetic character, tragic and doomed.  Tolkien was very much writing about the fall of nobility and the slow decline of a more pure age.  There is a tragic majesty to the whole story that is unmatched in fantasy.