I started Wheel of Time in the 90's, when epic fantasy was scarce.  Before WoT I read LOTR, of course, Shannara, Michael Moorcock's Elric Saga, and the Recluse books.  I really enjoyed Wheel of Time for the most part despite feeling like many of the later books drug on incessantly.

When I read that Amazon would be making a series, I started a re-read and have really struggled enjoying the books.  Maybe they're just outdated, with all the male-female bickering, the constant descriptions of every single piece of clothing that every character wears in every scene, the idea that so much of conflict revolves around characters simply choosing to not share important information for reasons that don't often make sense, and then passages that seem to go on forever, dumping tons of information on history and customs but cover very little plot ground.  I think maybe having read so much fantasy since that maybe I see fantasy in general differently now.  I suppose the one series I most often compare it to is Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight archive which also very long and very detailed and full of info dumps and long passages but seems to move along briskly despite the lengthy page count.  I got to Lord of Chaos and have stopped, knowing that I'm getting to the part of the series I really struggled enjoying the first time.  I'm curious to see how the series addresses this, if they will quicken the pace of the books, consolidate the many, many plot threads, generally change the way the female and male characters interact.  I don't hate on the books like some people do because I did really enjoy them the first time around.  

They should just use this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZOCCEuROPk

Lord of Chaos is my favorite.  The conclusion is epic and I feel like the series started to dip in quality after that as the story was exponentially expanded by the addition of dozens of new plot threads until it quite literally dragged to a near-halt at my least favorite book (and most people's I think), Crossroads of Twilight.   I don't mind saying I really feel like Brandon Sanderson dragged the series out the muck.  Maybe RJ had plans to get things back on track and moving again but Knife of Dreams was only moderately less of a chore to read that CoT.   Towers of Midnight is my second favorite book. 

My top three:

Lord of Chaos

Towers of Midnight

The Great Hunt

Either Shadows Rising or Lord of Chaos had just been released in hardcover.  I purchased a bundle of Eye of the World, The Great Hunt, and The Dragon Reborn in paperback for like ten bucks, on sale.  By the time I got to Lord of Chaos, A Crown of Swords was just about to be released but hadn't yet.  This was before the internet so the only way I knew was by asking someone at the bookstore.  After that I would buy the hardcovers as they were released and eventually back filled my collection.  There really wasn't a lot of fantasy in the 80's and 90's.  I remember the SciFi/Fantasy section being decidedly more SciFi than Fantasy back then.  You had Terry Brooks, Michael Moorcock, Marion Zimmer Bradley, and Ursula K. Leguin, among others but nothing compared to the stuff out today.  Seems like a new "epic" fantasy series hits the shelves every month.  Wheel of Time felt very new and epic and different back then.   

Episode 1 ends with the fight in Shadar Logoth.  I would completely cut out the stuff in Baerlon and have the group leave Emond's field, a few LOTR type traveling sequences, maybe a conversation around a campfire, and then start the entire Shadar Logoth sequence, end with the separation.  Episode 2 could end where the book ends.  Stuff is going to have be cut out, no way around it.  Perrin and Egewene's visit to the Tinkers, condense that entire subplot to a single encounter with the Children of the Light, make that Perrin's introduction into wolf-hood, the wolves coming to his aid and creating that bond.  As for Rand and Matt, you could excise most of that plot, take out his meeting with Elayne, leave that introduction for later, bring Loil in at Whitebridge, have the group re-group, hit the ways, and into the blight, roll credits.   

Cutting out Baerlon would mean cutting out Min's entrance into the story - but dare I say I think it would make sense to cut Min out all together?  In a TV show she's seems like one lover too many and I think she feels most of the time like a tacked on character anyway.  Give her ability to foresee people's fates to Elayne, make it part of the one power and just cut her out.  Likely would piss off fans but let's be honest, they're going to have cut chracters and sequences, entire subplots, to make this into a series.

On 6/18/2018 at 8:26 PM, Sabio said:

Here is how I would see it happening....

 

Season 1; Based solely on Eye of the World

I think season one should cover the first three books, end with Rand taking Calindor and declaring himself the Dragon Reborn.  I would almost even daresay The Eye of the World could be condensed into one two part pilot episode with the majority of the first season focusing on the build up to the battle on Toman Head, mid season, and conclude in Tear with Rand taking Calindor.  Even though I love the first three books, it still feels like it takes too long for Rand to finally come to terms with who he is and to start doing something about it.  Don't feel like a television audience is going to be as patient with the characters as they continuously attempt to deny who they are, deny their role in the pattern, whining about how they're just a shepherd or  a blacksmith, etc.  The reluctant hero trope can only go so far in film/television before audiences are gonna give up and move on to something else I think.

Also feel that the Aes Sedai were heavily influenced by the Bene Jesseret in Dune, which also heavily influenced the Jedi in Star Wars.  Moiraine always felt like a conglomeration of Gandalf from LOTR and Jessica from Dune. 

The whole Min/Elayne/Aviendha felt like it was influenced by Paul's relationship with Princess Irulan and Chani - Elayne = Irulan, Chani = Aviendha/maybe Min.    Tom Merrylin = Gurney Halleck, Matt = Pippin, Perrin = Merry, Lan = Aragorn, Padan Fain = Gollum, Two Rivers = Shire, Blight = Mordor, Shinear = Gondor, Loial = Treebeard, wow, once you get started you can kind of just keep going!

https://winteriscoming.net/2018/08/25/wheel-of-time-tv-series-would-have-massive-production-issues-to-hurdle/

Funny, going back and reading some of my old posts - UPDATE, I did stick with COT, trudged through Knife of Dreams which was not nearly as bad but not nearly as good as earlier books, mourned greatly when Robert Jordan succumbed to his illness, cheered when Brandon Sanderson took up the helm (HUGE fan of Mistborn), and felt that Towers of Midnight was the finest book since Lord of Chaos, and was deeply satisfied by A Memory of Light despite feeling it didn't quite live up to 13 hefty volumes worth of setup.  

Now, I'm going through the series again, this time in audiobook form, and taking my time, trying to really focus on the world building and depth of history, which is impressive thus far.  It does strike me as odd that nearly every character is somehow an expert of prophecy, so schooled that many can quote prophetic passages from memory.  Would welcome a deep discussion on the role of prophecy as either a force that drives the circumstances of the characters that is fully beyond their control (like leaves on the wind...poor Wash) or, as Moiraine sees it, some kind of roadmap for guiding one's actions in order to achieve the desired outcome.  Suppose I should start another thread unless one is already out there.

If you read enough books you begin to see commonalities between various writers and their works, charcters, sitautions, environments, plot points, borrowed from other writers, from films, TV, pop culture, etc.  I've often wondered if those commonalities are real, meaning the author was truly inspired by another work, or simply the product of my ever growing mental cache of stuff making those connections.

The first time I read about an Aiel sharing water I immediatly knew that Frank Herbert inspired these characters.  Had a similar moment when I first read Dune and thought, incorrectly at the time, that all this talk of spice mining was lifted from Star Wars.  One glance at the publication date corrected my misconception.  I also think that Paul Atredies was at least partially an inspiration for Rand, a sort of conglomeration of Arthur, Frodo/Aragorn, Jesus Christ, and the Muad Dib, among others.  

Personally, I kind of enjoy writing inspired by other great writing.  Obvious that LOTR inspired much of WoT, everything from names like Matt-Perrin/Merry-Pippin to the color changing cloaks that warder's wear.  Nothing wrong there, so long as the story is not a straight point for point retelling (see Sword of Shannara) and at least tries to expand or divert into something new, with WoT does.  

Here's an observation on pacing in The Great Hunt.  

I first read The Great Hunt in or around 1997 or 1998.  Path of Daggers, if I recall correctly, had just come out in hard cover and Crown of Swords in paperback.  I picked up the first three WoT books and blew through them in a just a couple of months.  I eventually caught up to the released novels around Winter's Heart and then read each subsequent novel as it was released.  I recently decided, likely prompted by news of a possible television series, to re-read the entire series.  To be more specific, I chose to listen to the series in audiobook form, occasionally pulling out my old copies of the novels, but primarily listening.  

Despite having not read The Eye of the World in over 20 years, the novel offered few surprises.  It was as I remembered it, with only what I would consider minor details un-remembered.  The action sequences - the flight from the Two Rivers and Baerlon, the separation at Shadar Logoth, and the eventual journey through the Ways and into the Blight were all very much as I remember them.

The Great Hunt however, seemed almost a different novel.  In my mind, at least half of the story took place in Toman Head.  The sequences that really stood out in my memory from my first read were those of Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, and Min, particularly Egwene's being leashed by the Seanchean.  I was surprised to find that I was almost 90% of the way through the book before any of the characters arrive in Falme.  Upon finishing the novel, it struck me that much of it was spent following the main characters as they traveled from place to place without much happening in-between.  And then, suddenly, they're finding ways to fast travel to where they need to be in order to progress the story to its conclusion.   Needless to say, I was disappointed with the pacing of the book.  But of course, the epic conclusion in Toman Head more than makes up for the shortcomings.   I used to claim The Great Hunt one of my top three entries in WoT.  Now, not so sure it ranks that high.  

Anybody watching this or have watched it?  I've watched the first four episodes and the series looks amazing.  I'm not quite sold on the family dynamic thing going on or the weird villain-esque situation with doctor who's not a doctor (was the doctor in the original series actually a doctor?).  I love the robot character and the dynamic between the robot and Will Robinson is the best part of the series so far, other than the top notch special effects.

Not new.  Was a regular here many years ago while reading through WOT.  Started the series in college just after The Dragon Reborn came out in hard cover and was a hardcore fan for many years.  Read each book as it came out and to be honest, by the time I finished A Memory of Light I was soooooo over Wheel of Time.  I was very critical of the later books (some of them I absolutely hated - Winter's Heart, Crossroads of Twilight) and honestly thought the epic finale just wasn't one of the better books in the series, hardly as "magnificent" as Brandon Sanderson described it.

But, here I am.  Yes, there are better fantasy series' out there but by gosh there aren't many.  Most of the stuff labeled epic fantasy these days is anything but.  And so, I decided to embark on a second read-through of WOT, or to be more accurate, a listen-through as I am this time opting for the audiobooks.  Just finished The Dragon Reborn today.  Wow, the first half dozen books in this series are spectacular.  

Just a couple of observations:

I think the books lost something when the characters began to quick-travel all over the map.  There's a great deal of exposition, world building, and character development that occurs as each of the characters make their respective journeys to the Blight, to Tar Valon, Tomon Head, and to Tear.  As I recall, the books get to a point where characters are creating portals and jumping all over the map, one of the many ways they quick-travel when the story requires it.

I'm starting to be acutely aware of just how often Rand and Perrin refuse to accept their role in the events that play out.  I've started keeping count in my head of how often Perrin laments "I'm just a blacksmith" or Rand "I'm a shepherd from the Two Rivers."  Their naivety is almost comical to the point of being irritating.  Matt doesn't quite have the same problem.  Yes, he want's to get away but at least he seems to accept the situation and know there's no going back home.

Love the entire Mistborn series but I thought Shadows of Self was a huge disappointment.  It's the only Brandon Sanderson book I didn't enjoy from start to finish.  Thought it was slow and uneven and the main characters are either starting to annoy me or bore me, not sure which.  

Print

Queen of Fire by Anthony Ryan

Next up is The Black Elfstone by Terry Brooks

Audiobook

Babylon's Ashes by James SA Corey

Also about to finish The Dragon Reborn.  Decided to start getting the WOT audiobooks with my Audible monthly credit and listening to them while I walk during my lunch break.  Read the series in paperback from the early 90's through A Memory of Light.  Decided to go through the series again pending this new TV series, this time on audio.  Kate Reading and Michael Kramer are the best.  

Nynaeve - while WOT in general is a study in characters mercilessly and perpetually hanging on to their misconceptions about themselves and the world around them (recently re-started the series on audiobook and am now far too painfully aware of just how often Perrin says "I'm just a blacksmith" or Rand "I'm a shepherd from the Two Rivers"), Nynaeve is just over the top.  She seems a smart character yet her refusal to appreciate the events of which she is actively a part, to synthesize the things she's witnessed, and to finally conclude that maybe Moraine was on to something is just flat out annoying and ridiculous.  Yeah, I get that she is in love with Lan and and hates Moirane for that too, but it's just asinine how long she continues to believe she's got any real chance of bringing Rand, Perrin, and Matt back to the two rivers and putting everything back to the way it was before Moirane ruined everything.  

A Canticle for Lebowitz. Working my way through my list of great science fiction/fantasy.

Terminal World by Alastair Reynolds.

Having a difficult time finding readers of Reynold's stuff, particular his Revelation Space trilogy which is one of the best SciFi series' I've read in ages and ages.

Reading: Ringworld by Larry Niven - Why? Because it's on a list of must-read Science Fiction that someone gave a few years ago. I have nine books left once I finish Ringworld.

Listening: The Final Empire, Mistborn Volume 1.

I swap every 2-3 weeks, listen to a SF book, read a fantasy book, vice-versa.

Who was the gay male in ToM - did I miss something?

Better give up before you get tired! Too many people are saying that Rand will take on DO one on one and that's it. aMoL I reckon will be like 40 page long and wham bham thank you mam!

I didn't say that the rest of the armies wouldn't be involved in the last battle, just that they wouldn't matter. I suppose the point would be to prevent the shadowspawn from invading, to chase them back to the blight but that's been done before and it didn't mark the end of time or the age. The only real battle that will matter will be Rand and the Dark One. I wonder how affective those who chose to be at the Dragons side are going to be.

Not to answer my own question - but I do get a sense that the last battle has nothing to do with armies or battlefield tactics or weapons but is actually a battle that will take place between the Dark One the Dragon Reborn so the rest is, to put it bluntly, almost irrelevant. And I don't think the issue or dilemma is a question of who will win. I always felt like RJ made it clear the the Dragon will win and the Dark will again be defeated (it was only in the Sanderson novels that this concept that the Dragon and his forces could lose was introduced - a rather stupid concept when one considers all of the prophecy and Min's viewings) - the real question has always been how will the Dragon win - will he destroy himself and the world in doing so, perpetuating the turning of the wheel of time? Or can he actually change the pattern, stop the endless turning of the wheel, this doom cycle to birth-destruction-rebirth-destruction, and defeat the dark one forever and in doing so remake time itself into a linear progression.

Q. Having nearly finished ToM and starting to contemplate, at last, the final battle - what exactly does the Dark One bring to the table? The best I can figure, he has thousands if not millions of trollocs supported by fades, a couple dozen channelers between the foresaken that are still left alive and the black aja and a few channeling dark friends here an there. Based on past skirmishes between Trollocs/Fades and Humans even without the support of channelers, the trolloc to human kill ratio is somewhere around a staggering 15 to 1 and goes even higher when the Ta'veren trio are anywhere around. The fact you'll have almost equal numbers of trollocs/fades to human fighters (counting the armies supporting the Dragon, the Aiel, the whitecloaks, the Seanchan, and possibly even the Ogier) alone would tilt things generously toward the good guys. When you add in the fact that the Dragon will be supported by literally thousands of channelers, half of which have not problem using the one power was a weapon, the other half healing the wounded. Top this off with a generous amount of black powder weapons that can rip hoards of Trollocs to shreds from a significant distance...and you clearly have the makings of a rather lopsided battle. What is it that makes the Dark One such a threat?

Q. Although I can appreciate the fact that Matt is single-handedly inventing black powder firearms - why spend all the money and effort building dragons in a world full of channelers who can pretty much accomplish the same thing (hurling objects a long distance) without the time, effort, or resources? What would you rather have, a dozen heavy cannons that have to be loaded, reloaded, maneuvered into place, targeted, and fired...or a dozen Ashaman?

Have come to the chapter in ToM where Perrin uses the wolf dream to scout out the Whitecloak's camp. It reads suspiciously like Tel'aran'rhiod - are they the same thing?