The way Tylin treated Mat sickens me. I've been reading the books since 1992. I read a comment on the archived site that said in the time Jordan wrote this, Male Rape wasn't a thing. That is wrong. I was an adult. I don't think how Jordan was trying to be humorous. It was dark and disturbing. I don't believe half the readers think it's funny. I reread the series yearly and it upset me more and more. And the fact that Elayne thinks, "he probably deserved it", really upsets me too. Mat didn't pursue woman like that. In one book it clearly states he only responds when they like it. He is flirtatious, but never forces himself on a female.

On 8/30/2021 at 10:55 AM, Fano'Lan Redux said:

Starting this thread after mistakenly sidetracking a thread in the show forum

 

Trying to comprehend the seemingly universal acceptance here that the Cauthon/Tylin arc supports the conclusion Mat was raped by Tylin and that the interactions between them are comparable to what Morgase suffered at the hands of Valda

 

The origin and discussion of this contention eluded me in the moment, and I have to educate myself on the arguments in favor of the position. Other than the interview with Harriet mentioned in the other thread, would greatly appreciate anyone pointing me to supporting contentions

..........................

In short, I disagree with "rape" conclusion and the minimization of Morgase's trauma in comparison so would like to evaluate the underlying arguments for that conclusion

Valda didn't use a knife on Morgase's clothing. She didn't have 6 serving woman catch her, and bodily bring her into the room. The queens room. An authority figure, which makes him even more helpless. Morgase was asked the question and agreed. They were both raped. What happened to him was more violent.

On 8/30/2021 at 8:42 PM, king of nowhere said:

Regarding mat being free to leave, I seem to remember scenes of him being captured and brought back by servants, but maybe i remember wrong? It's been a while since my last reread. But even if I remember that detail wrong, mat spent most of his time in the palace either honor-bound to stay by hiw promises to elayne and nynaeve, or recuperating from his wounds in the seanchan assault

 

You're remembering right. Besides the threats with the knife, on the morning of the Rahad, Mat is remembering the night before when 6 serving woman accosted him, and dragged him to Tylin. Not only was there violence committed against Mat, but also she was an authority figure, like a boss, but much worse. She was the Queen.

On 8/31/2021 at 11:10 AM, Thrasymachus said:

.  Morgase submitted because the alternative was her death and the death of those following her.  But there was no prior possibility that she would have chosen a sexual relationship with Valda.  And he forced that relationship without any kind of regard for her as a person.

 

 

You're drawing conclusions that were never specified in the books. Morgase wasn't necessarily going to be put to death. The threat of questioning by the questioner exists. But Valda would want her alive to control Andor. So there would have been limits to the questioning. If you can draw an unwritten conclusion, I can to.

On 10/10/2021 at 3:50 PM, DojoToad said:

Not following your logic.  If you're comparing Mat to Berelain, I don't see the equivalency.  Mat pursued women, but seemed to have a knack for pursuing those that wanted to get caught.  I don't recall an incident of Mat being rebuffed and continuing the pursuit.  Maybe it can be implied, but don't believe it was shown outright like it was with Berelain - she was explicitly rebuffed numerous times and still continued the hunt; the definition of a sexual predator.

You're right Mat only pursued those that liked to be caught. They said that in the Stone of Tear.

On 10/11/2021 at 2:07 PM, Elendir said:

 

Aludra, Isendre and tavern girl south of Cairhien. We do not know the details and all cases are different. The only thing that they have in comon is the fact that Mat do not take NO as an answer.

He bought them gifts and flirted endlessly. He didn't try to remove their clothes. (Berelain)

On 10/17/2021 at 4:57 AM, Elendir said:

Mat pursued Isender actively, although she was not interested in him. Sure, as a darkfriend, it was a game on her part, but it was clear in the book through Rand's eyes that she was running from Mat. Sexual predators often consider such resistance to be feigned, regardless of whether or not it is.
Mat changed his interest because he got involved with another female darkfriend and Isendra became a convict of Far Dareis Mai.

 

The pub girl south of Cairhien enjoyed Mat's company, ,ut she thought it was purely a social matter. Mat, on the other hand, took it as a seducing with sex as ending and mentally commented that she was talking too much if it was worth it.
Innkeeper did not act as a protector. The girl got free of the work in the inn so she could keep Mat company. Rich customers need to be satisfied.
So I'm not sure how much room for CONSENT she would have between Mat the rich customer and the innkeeper the boss.

 

Aludra knew steps better then Mat so she keep things the way she wanted. It wasn't because Mat respected her boundaries, but because she could set and enforce them.

What I'm writing here is not for tarn on Mat. I just want to point out one Elayne quote "Taste your own medicine".

Mat flirted with Isender and gave her gifts. He didn't hold knives on her, or have serving woman accost him and drag her to him. He didn't steal her key, so she had no privacy or escape. Plus Isender did flirt back, she just also wasn't going there with him.

Your presuming Mat had sex on his mind - as if that's a crime? But he only flirted and dance. They say in the Stone of Tear that Mat only pursues those who want to be pursued.

Aludra kissed Mat, so he kept up the flirting. Had she not wanted it, he would have stopped.

*SD here, I merged all your posts into one*