The Creator bound the Dark One outside of reality at the moment of creation.

Or so the characters believe. But now it seems someone in a differnet age, possibly even Rand himself, actually made or remade the prison that contains the DO, at some point between Rand's time and when then Age of Legends comes around again. People keep saying things like "how could any person re-create what the Creator made", but I don't know if the Creator ever did actually make the Dark One's prison.

She is not even prepared to listen to Rand.

 

Eh, I don't know if that's true. Rand didn't try very hard to convince her. It was more like "Hey, Egwene. Nice place you have here. Whelp, I'm going to go smash the seals to the Dark One's prison. See you later."

 

There was no way he could convince her which would have been timely or productive, by doing what he did, it spurred her into action to get EVERY single king,queen and army there that she could in an effort to stop him from breaking them. Do you honestly think those nobles would have agreed to go if they knew that Rand was about to start Tarmon Gai'don?

Oh, of course. I think Rand knew exactaly what he was doing there.

That being said, blaming Egwene for thinking that breaking the seals was a bad idea, when she did not have enough information to think otherwise, is not fair.

Now I think there is a risk of this going the way it did in the AOL with all the female Aes Sedi refusing to help Lewis Therrin, with horrible consequence, but I don't think Egwene is going to do that. If she does, then you can blame her

She is not even prepared to listen to Rand.

Eh, I don't know if that's true. Rand didn't try very hard to convince her. It was more like "Hey, Egwene. Nice place you have here. Whelp, I'm going to go smash the seals to the Dark One's prison. See you later."

Yeah, but the "Rand and Ishy merge into one" thing always seemed like pretty strong evidence to me. Neither of the other two had that dream.

As Luckers stated (and quoted!) in his initial post, the link formed in ACOS.

Well, that was a theory Rand himself came up with, but I think there's actually evidence of it existing earlier. I think it might actually go all the way back to when Ishy healed Lewis Therrin's insanity in the age of legends.

It's not just the suicidal rage. Very often that's what does it, but they usually die even without that. It doesn't really go into details of how it works; they might just lose the will to live or something.

 

Yes, Myrelle has saved warders before, and saves Lan, but it is stated that that's really, really rare. Most warders die when the Aes Sedi they're bonded to dies, even if they don't die in a suicidal rage.

I think you're mistaken. Their rage is what losing the will to live means. They go look for trouble, and eventually even a Warder can't survive the risk they take to avenge their AS.

At one point, Cadsune specifically stated that if Alanna died, that Rand would die either then or soon afterwards. I don't imagine that he would go into a sucidal rage just because someone he doesn't like all that much died; there is clearly more to it then that.

Also, I would think that if a man who can channel bonds a woman who can channel as his warder, and then he goes insane, she would probably go insane as well.

 

I was about to say that it doesn't work in reverse as neither Alanna, Min, Elayne or Avi are insane. But their's no evidence to suggest that any of them are crazier as a result of the bond.

 

The way the bond usually works, if the Aes Sedi dies, the warder dies, but if the warder dies, the aes sedi just feels sad for a while. I would guess being bonded to a male that can channel and will slowly go insane is probably much more dangerous then bonding one.

 

I think they did mention that if you were linked to a male channeling tainted Sadin with the male version of the a'dam, that the taint would affect you as well.

 

Warders don't automatically die when their AS dies. It's that they usually go into a suicidal rage trying to avenge their AS's death.

It's already been proven that they don't just die and not only that but can also go on to be a Warder for another AS.

It's the whole reason that Moiriane passed Lan's bond onto Myrelle. Myrelle has had success in keeping Warders that lost their AS alive. 2 of her 3 Warders in fact.

It's not just the suicidal rage. Very often that's what does it, but they usually die even without that. It doesn't really go into details of how it works; they might just lose the will to live or something.

Yes, Myrelle has saved warders before, and saves Lan, but it is stated that that's really, really rare. Most warders die when the Aes Sedi they're bonded to dies, even if they don't die in a suicidal rage.

Also, I would think that if a man who can channel bonds a woman who can channel as his warder, and then he goes insane, she would probably go insane as well.

 

I was about to say that it doesn't work in reverse as neither Alanna, Min, Elayne or Avi are insane. But their's no evidence to suggest that any of them are crazier as a result of the bond.

The way the bond usually works, if the Aes Sedi dies, the warder dies, but if the warder dies, the aes sedi just feels sad for a while. I would guess being bonded to a male that can channel and will slowly go insane is probably much more dangerous then bonding one.

I think they did mention that if you were linked to a male channeling tainted Sadin with the male version of the a'dam, that the taint would affect you as well.

Also, I would think that if a man who can channel bonds a woman who can channel as his warder, and then he goes insane, she would probably go insane as well.

What's so appalling about the Asha'man bonding the Aes Sedai? Is it mainly because it was men bonding women or is there something else I'm not getting?

 

Every time we come across Aes Sedai who are aware of what happened at the Black Tower, they all say it's an atrocity. The thing is, those Aes Sedai were their to kill the Asha'man. And at least those Aes Sedai are still alive. I can't imagine them thinking the Aes Sedai being dead preferable to them being bonded by men.

A. It is basically a form of compulsion, especally the way the Asha'men do it.

B. Taking someone as a warder against their will is very much taboo these days.

C. If an Asha'man bonds an Aes Sedi, and then the Asha'man dies, the Aes Sedi probably dies too. Most warders do, after all. This is especally disturbing if you don't know that Sadin has been clensed; most people still assume that an asha'man has a lifespan of at best a few years before he goes insane and/or dies.

Is CoT worth reading on a reread? Ive read it before so I know what hapens, but are there any really good scenes in it that warrant a reread?

I think it was better then Path of Daggers and Winter's Heart. A lot of the plotlines that were kind of stalled in book 9 finally get moving somewhere.

The scene where Perrin forms an alliance with the Seanchen was pretty awesome. The Egwene rebel aes sedi stuff finally starts to go somewhere. And the clensing of saidin scene was great.

Yeah, I think it's worth a re-read.

She tanked in other parts but that's no suprise given that we are dealing with an inept author called sanderson

I have to say that I couldn't disagree more with all the Sanderson hate on this board. He's not Robert Jordan, and he's not trying to be, but he's a good author, and the series as a whole is made so much better because of books 12 and 13 then if it had ended on book 11. Give the man a break; not many people would be willing to try to do what he's doing, and fewer could do it as well as he is.

Egwene's job is to look out for the interest of the White Tower. If she got the better of the WO and Windfinders in the deal - good for her. If the Aiel apprentices prefer Tar Valon to the desert, more power to them. It's their life and their choice.

Exactly what I am saying, but does that make her a good, just or a like able person? I can say for myself. NO!

Egwene's duty is to make the White Tower strong and unified and then bring it whole and united to fight in the Last Battle on the side of Rand. If she accomplishes nothing else, she's still done her job.

I think she is going to accomplish more then that, though. I think she is in the process of re-making the White Tower into something that is going to be in the long run a more stable, more ethical, and more open institution, that with better relations with the rest of the world (and probably even with the Whitecloaks).

Bringing more Aes Sedi into the White Tower by removing the age requirmenet, making the Kin almost an adjunct to the tower, and building a relationship with both the Wise Ones and the Sea Folk are all things that will help win the Last Battle and, even more, improve the balance of power with the Senshean afterwards. It seems pretty obvious that beating the Senshean is one of Egwene's main priorities here, and it should be.

 

Remember, all those women that the White Tower never bothered to test before because they're too old, still would be tested and collered by the Senshean if they get the chance.

actually those that would have to be tested to be found would not be found by the a'dam, it only finds those who spark, and sul'dam that have worked with damane for a period of time. they would likely to be found as damane though. but only those who have sparked (or learned somewhere already) would be collared.

Well, that's true; those who would have to be tested will instead show up as sul'dam to the Senshean, and become trainers of damme instead. I'm not sure that's better, though.

Bringing more Aes Sedi into the White Tower by removing the age requirmenet, making the Kin almost an adjunct to the tower, and building a relationship with both the Wise Ones and the Sea Folk are all things that will help win the Last Battle and, even more, improve the balance of power with the Senshean afterwards. It seems pretty obvious that beating the Senshean is one of Egwene's main priorities here, and it should be.

Remember, all those women that the White Tower never bothered to test before because they're too old, still would be tested and collered by the Senshean if they get the chance.

I don't hate Egwene, personally. However, there was a period of time in the middle of the seires when all 3 women (Egwene, Elayne, and Nyv) annoyed me greatly to a point where I didn't like reading chapters about them the first time I read the series. They all improved over time, though.

Oh, yeah; the male channalers are different, because they either have no training, or are Asha'men.

Except for those times where she secretly continued her dream training in spite of what the highly respected Wise One's opinions. Actions speak louder than words.

There is a running theme in these books where every single character who is being taught to channel or dreamwalk or whatever keeps trying to push faster and harder to learn and to do more while their teachers keep trying to slow them down to keep them safe. Basically every female channeler in the books goes through that cycle, and the more powerful and more significant ones go faster, they can't help theselves. Partly it's because it's all so addictive, partly it's just because they want to know. Also, I think it's because they come up so fast and develop on their own so much that they end up learning or rediscovering things that the rest of the White Tower doesn't know; they might never have discovered those things if they had gone through the slow step-by-step methodical training everyone else did.

If Egwene didn't push harder then was safe, both with channeling and with dreamwalking, she probably never would have learned everything she needed fast enough to save the world.

It's also interesting that in just a few books Egwene gets both sides of this; first she's the young channeler trying to push harder and faster then she should, and then she's on the other side of the coin when Nicola tries to use blackmail to push her own training faster and harder.