As far as I know, the only thing AS have done to Rand that she believes she has any need to apologize for is his captivity in LOC and that inherited from Elaida, not of her own doing.

that's a good point. so I guess we have to believe that the Aes Sedai that brought Bode and the other Two Rivers girls to Salidar didn't tell her. this sounds like a plot error although one can try to argue that they told the Hall (they were sent by the Hall after all) and the Hall kept it from Egwene as they were not on the best of terms at the time.

 

BTW, Nynaeve definitely knows about Alanna as of TOM, Ch 12 but likely much earlier. She should have told Egwene later when she told her of her time with Rand (TOM, ch 33) but perhaps she didn't.

Thanks, guys.

Thats what I assumed too - a general ignorance on the Towers (or at least Egwene's) part. At least for Egwene, I don't see her been that hypocritical, and it does fit her worldview at all. I couldn't be sure though, because of the general distasteful reaction most Aes sedai display when they become aware, from Verin, to Merana, to Kiruna, to Cadsuane (and maybe even Nynaeve, at least about the under-reaction part).

1. Distaste of the act a violation...

2. Then immediately assessing it as possible source of (mind) control

3. and when that proves useless, willfully ignoring all the negative implications of the bond.

I wonder if it will come to much in AMoL. So much to do, so much to do... Its kind of sad that the only non-coerced Channeler + Channer bonding situation is Rand's triple bond, and Beldeine+Karldin (I presume and hope this is the case anyway, in this pairing). I know that every bond is making the two parties grow closer, but I still dislike the master/servant relationship that is implied when there was no free choice, especially when the parties should be equals.

Actually, we don't know exactly who made it to Salidar with Bode. Kiruna sent 4 Aeas Sedai back to Salidar: Berenicia, Demira, Kairen and Valinde (LOC, ch 49). But only two made it there (tPOD, ch 30) and they are not named. One of them must have been Kairen because she is mentioned several times as being present in salidar in CoT before Aran'gar kills her but who the other is is not clear. It's also not clear what happened to the other two. It might be that RJ just messed it up there. As you say he juggled a lot of people.

 

In any case it's possible but very unlikely that Kairen and the other one didn't tell anybody in Salidar about Alanna. Egwene would have questioned them and she should have asked to explain Merana's letter.

So I guess that is my simple question then... Why doesn't anyone in the Salidar faction, Egwene included, give a damn that Alanna bonded Rand? Especially given that Egwene had noted earlier in the series that Alanna seem far to interested in Rand (as well as Mat/Perrin), and she has a particular noble streak about mind control (ad'am, compulsion, etc). It seems like someone would say something, either showing disgust, worrying how it would affect Dragon Reborn relations, downplaying it as a necessary evil... something. Anyone got any rationale?

Demira Eriff and the other Salidar Embassy Aes Sedai escorted the Two Rivers girls back to Salidar and should have brought with them word of Alanna's Forced Bonding. I found it annoying that with Ewgene, Lelaine, Suian and the rest of the Hall's hand wringing over Rand's sworn Aes Sedai, the bonding of Ashaman, and later the BT bonded Aes Sedai that the issue would have come up some way or another, at least with childhood friend Egwene, either in RJs books or Brandons version.

Perhaps Demira and the rest kept quiet, either because they didnt want it let known that their acceptance of Alanna among them almost certainly compromised Rand's attitude towards them and contributed to the failure of their embassy, or they are still following that antiquated custom of 'not interfering in another Aes Sedai's business, especially their warder' (which conflicts the stories about Warders bonded too early, and the criminal aspect of the bond).

I suppose another possibility is that given the number of threads that RJ was juggling, this one was dropped or he felt it wasnt important ( I hope not)

Have we seen a channeler use the Mirror of Mists/Illusion to take another characters face, that is so accurate such that even people who knew the original (copied) person would be fooled?

There are a lot of interesting theories out there using this technique, but I wasnt aware of a specific case, beyond "looking like someone different". I know TuonMirhage was disguised as a small dark skinned woman to imitate the DotNM in KoD, but did any of the Randlanders or the Sul'dam actually know what she really looked like?

From the discussions that Lan has with Moiraine before entering the Stone and after, it would seem they have some idea. However, from the way Myrelle handles Lan when he comes to her (arriving after Moiraine's falling through the doorway terangreal), it would seem that when they do compel they try to do it with a soft touch so that the Warders don't realize it. Of course, that may have just been because he was on the edge.

Thanks a lot thisguy, you helped a lot. It lead me to this, whaich for some reason slipped my mind.

Moraine:

For the hundredth time - or so it seemed to her - she considered the words to use. "Before we left Tar Valon I made arrangements, should anything happen to me, for your bond to pass to another." He stared at her, silent. "When you feel my death, you will find yourself compelled to seek her out immediately. I do not want you to be surprised by it."

"Compelled," he breathed softly, angrily. "Never once have you used my bond to compel me. I thought you more than disapproved of that."

"Had I left this thing undone, you would be free of the bond at my death, and not even my strongest command to you would hold. I will not allow you to die in a useless attempt to avenge me. And I will not allow you to return to your equally useless private war in the Blight. The war we fight is the same war, if you could only see it so, and I will see that you fight it to some purpose. Neither vengeance nor an unburied death in the Blight will do."

 

...

 

For a moment he studied his hands, large and square. "I had never thought," he said slowly, "that I might not be the first of us to die. Somehow, even at the worst, it always seemed . . . ." Abruptly he scrubbed his hands against each other. "If there is a chance I might be given like a pet lapdog, I would at least like to know to whom I am being given."

"I have never seen you as a pet," Moiraine said sharply, "and neither does Myrelle. "

"Myrelle." He grimaced. "Yes, she would have to be Green, or else some slip of a girl just raised to full sisterhood."

"If Myrelle can keep her three Gaidin in line, perhaps she has a chance to manage you. Though she would like to keep you, I know, she has promised to pass your bond to another when she finds one who suits you better."

"So. Not a pet but a parcel. Myrelle is to be a - a caretaker! Moiraine, not even the Greens treat their Warders so. No Aes Sedai has passed her Warder's bond to another in four hundred years, but you intend to do it to me not once, but twice!"

"It is done, and I will not undo it."

"The Light blind me, if I am to be passed from hand to hand, do you at least have some idea in whose hand I will end?"

"What I do is for your own good, and perhaps it may be for another's, as well. It may be that Myrelle will find a slip of a girl just raised to sisterhood - was that not what you said? - who needs a Warder hardened in battle and wise in the ways of the world, a slip of a girl who may need someone who will throw her into a pond. You have much to offer, Lan, and to see it wasted in an unmarked grave, or left to the ravens, when it could go to a woman who needs it would be worse than the sin of which the Whitecloaks prate. Yes, I think she will have need of you."

Lan's eyes widened slightly; for him it was the same as another man gasping in shocked surmise. She had seldom seen him so off balance. He opened his mouth twice before he spoke. "And who do you have in mind for this - "

She cut him off. "Are you sure the bond does not chafe, Lan Gaidin? Do you realize for the first time, only now, the strength of that bond, the depth of it? You could end with some budding White, all logic and no heart, or with a young Brown who sees you as nothing more than a pair of hands to carry her books and sketches. I can hand you where I will, like a parcel - or a lapdog - and you can do no more than go. Are you sure it does not chafe?"

 

TGH, Ch22

She has a purpose in saying this (delving into why he supported Rand in his defiance of the Amilryn early in TGH), but I had forgotten that this was the only time I really hated Moraine (and only the first time I read it, really). While we suspected it at the time, and now know for certain that Moiraine had only Lan's best interests at heart, this was pretty cruel. Dictatorial, even. It seem that kind of control even with the best intentions can seem a violation, especially when their previous working relationship had been exemplary. I dont know why I forget that in many ways, Moiraine is as much a Hard Woman making Hard Decisions as Cadsuane. Doing wrong for the greater good.

But at least the Warders know about it, and seemingly accept it as a possibility. THat makes it at least in part a quirk of the Warder culture , and less an hidden tool for suppressing the free will of the bonded, in comparison to the Ashaman bond and Compulsion (and much, much farther away from the Ad'am, which strips ones humanity)

It issuch an interesting contrast: amongst Aes Sedai Compulsion is viewed as an abomination, but Compelling via the Bond is not viewed in nearly the same light. In fact, it is the act of Bonding another against his will that is contemptable in Aes Sedai culture, not the subsequent use of said bond to compel, which seems to be a greater insult (LoC Ch10 Verin to Alanna). Or perhaps that's just Verin's opinion. Is it because a Warder (in typical cases) has already agreed to the bond, and as such has made his will subjective to his mistress? My impression from the early books, is that Compelling via the Bond is rarely used... and I hope that's true. I liked reading about Aes Sedai and their Warders a lot more back in the day when I was young and naive, blithely thinking they were a supportive team, with the Aes Sedai in the lead. Choosing to serve the Aes Sedai by swearing oaths is noble, but knowing the Warders have even less free will than they choose to give away, not being aware that they can be controlled by the One Power when the step out of line? Not so much.

Does anyone know if the warders are aware of Compelling via the Bond before they accept the oaths? I don't think so, but I am not sure if I have missed any mention one way or another in the texts or in or the RJ question and answer sessions.

Is the difference is that it because its more a method of persuasion? Alanna's references about trying Compel rand (LoC Ch 10, WH Ch 25?) seem to indicate no, a sort of complete control, at least in some less than extremely strong willed, seems acheivable. Is the crime of Compulsion so much worse is damage in that does to the psyche (see pretty much every chapter about Graendal)? Perhaps that is the difference for the Aes Sedai Certainly, we dont see a lot of it (and more in theory than in practice) until the later books when the stakes are becoming so high,and desperation is driving everyone's actions.

I think thats why Egwene is going to be one of the best Amilryns ever, beyond her amazing actions in healing the White Tower. Her attitude about compulsion of all sorts seems unwaivering, perhaps informed by her experience as a Damane. SHe shuts down Lelaine in her plans to alter the bond with regards to Ashaman, she set Logain free instead of gentling him or having him bonded, and her biggest issue (aside from that pesky Last Battle plan) with Rand is how to deal with the bonded sisters (and the sworn sisters who she is worried are subject to Compulsion). Sure, she wants to lead and have everyone fall in line behind her, but as 'bossy' as she can appear, she seems to understand how important it is the Aes Sedai cast off their Puppetmaster title, both in practice and in reputation.

I was wondering, does anyone have a list of the named characters the Fain/Ordeith corrupted when he was criss crossing the globe making Madeshar-intensified trouble for team LIght?

Mine is

PEdron Niall

Eladia

....

hmm...

Dain Bornhold

Also, have we seen anyone who has Fain-induced paranoia return to baseline as it were? I wonder if Dain is the only one who is one that path.