Ok, can a mod come close down this thread now? Thanks mostly everyone in the last page and a half for ignoring the OPs wishes of a non-bitchy-flaming discussion thread.

Right. So I write down my thoughts on your question, have a nice post-repost with Kael with no bitching that I am aware of, all of this in 'the last page and a half" and then you post this? That's pretty weak imo but whatever.

You asked for it!

Indeed, and thanks for the replies, some v. good points. Allow me to reply to some:

So you don't like realism? I mean every girl is perfectly rational all the time when it comes to boys right? Mmmhmm. Also, she WAS just having fun, it's not like she banged him, or was even necessarily interested. And she knows her own motivations, she can only guess at Rand's. And given his ultimate predicament of three girlfriends, I'm not sure she was far off the mark...

I agree this is a weak point in any case, I was just going through my memories and this came up, it does not hold up well. I seem to recall both Rand and Egwene wanting to forget this particular thing, so you are right.

Elayne liked Rand... Rand liked Elayne... how dare she do something completely unseflish and help set them up. Pretty sure she didn't sell Rand to her or bribe or blackmail either of them. Everyone had free will in that situation, she wanted them to be happy, and, apparently, they are. This is one of the dumbest Egwene criticisms I see repeated over and over.

Is it dumb? I agree no-one was really hurt but there is a callousness and maybe even hubris in planning to tell someone this and then arrange for his pick-up. It is emphasized since Rand actually caught on. Anyway, it goes for Elayne too although I am not sure I would say no to such suggestion in a similar case.

Not her secret to tell. Actually, aren't those her exact words? Are you one of those who thinks everyone should bow and scrape to the Dragon reborn? Elayne knew the Andor needed her, and she decided to do something else, and before that, I don't really see why Rand needed to know where they were. He seemed pretty skeptical they were truly on his side anyway. Probably not someone you'd WANT to trust with that information given his lack of enthusiasm.

I do not think she should scrape and bow, nor that she should necessarily tell him. From her thoughts however it seemed she regarded him more as an enemy, or perhaps competitor, than a friend and this is mostly what I did not like.

Aiel are the most forgiving people?! You realize they still hate Cairhiens for cutting down a tree? (...). As I've mentioned before, contrast that to Avi suggesting Elayne and Nynaeve pay off their toh to Mat and they scoff at the very idea of being hit in any way, and even the simple act of trying to be NICE to him, something they should do anyway, galls them both. If you want disgusting personalities, look to those two.

I was half-joking about the Aiel, hence the 'if you let them whip you'. They are the only ones, however, who can totally wipe a stain/mistake/error from someones record. Completely.

Re the point on Elayne and Nynaeve I completely agree. The poster asked why there was Egwene hate, not Elayne and Nynaeve hate.

Yes that was a wrong-headed motivation, but nothing she said was untrue and Nynaeve admits she was being stupid... At least you're not claiming Egwene raped her.

At least that indeed. Sorry but the rape thing seems a bit of a random here. I do not think Nynaeve admitting her faults excuses Egwene here though.

You'll have to be more specific... I cannot comment on "thoughts", she has lots of them. If you're referring to getting them to follow her... well I don't understand why that was horrible. Talmanes seemed pretty civil about the whole affair, they even made some decent money it seemed.

Again it is not her wanting things, but that she seems to not consider Mat a full person let alone a friend. I'll try to get a quote later. Con: I am not sure if Egwene and Mat actually ever were friends.

First of all, your attempts at being balanced are really getting weak. Almost insulting =(

She ordered them not to... she's the Amyrlin... if you want to argue how silly that was, then fine. But then again she was on the brink of succeeding.

The attempt at being balanced was meant to be weak here. I can imagine this:

Egwene wakes up: Hey guys, why did you go against my orders?

Siuan/Gareth/Gawhine: It seemed things were very hairy and risky. There was no way to make sure you were safe except going in, that is what we did.

Egwene: Well shucks! I had nearly succeeded. Ah well, I can see that you used your judgment (being a famous ex-Amyrlin, general and spoiled prince-ling) and adapted to the situation in difficult night. We really need to get some remote communication systems going to prevent this from happening again.

as a more balanced response to being pulled out of a war zone.

So you think Nynaeve would like to be told she couldn't handle it? Or would like to be pampered, gone easy on, or have someone do her fighting for her? (...) I'm sure neither will forget what happened, and Nynaeve gains much ji for passing.

Saerin called it an outrage and I agree. This has nothing to do with pampering, going easy etc... The Two Rivers and Lan tests were at the end and done by Egwene. Egwene knew what had gone before, an outrage, shameful, vengeful testing and then added this litte tidbit. Sorry, your appeal to "Nynaeve is proud and would want a full testing" feels weak to me in these circumstances.

Your "balance" statement seems stronger than your original statement here.

I agree. The original statement is what came when I asked myself what I did not like about Egwene. The second was when I tried to imagine facing someone who can turn people's lives in different directions, including mine.

This ridiculousness about Nynaeve as some perpetual goodly mother is damn near infuriating. While I'll happily admit that Nynaeve got better as the series went on, she is one of the most self-centred and pompous characters in the book. And it's Egwene, starting at the nightmare incident, when she really starts to reexamine herself and begins to change. She's lies to herself, blames everyone else for all her wrongs, and is prone to violent outbursts. Yes, her motivations are usually for the good of a handful of others, but so are Egwene's. The difference, is that Nynaeve's 'others' are those kids she swore to protect when she left tTW plus a few more, Egwene's 'others' are now all female channelers, those part of the tower and those who are not. Egwene cannot afford patronage to her close friends or those few she grew up with. She has way more people to look out for now.

A sore point ;-). Anyway, I am not saying Nynaeve is a saint. Indeed the point above about her and Elayne apologizing to Mat comes to mind. So a good point here. Still, by and large, Nynaeve is more a healer and Egwene a rather ruthless politician who does not treat her friends like friends. I think, of the top of my head so excuse me for missing bits:

Rand: "You care for my people"

Nynaeve: I care for any who need it"

covers her main trait. Still I can see why you feel Nynaeve can take and maybe deserved (some of?) what was coming to her.

I hope it is still followable without the original text, but it gets too long else. Thanks again for your reply, I thought it was fun anyway and am now at least somewhat more positively (a little) inclined towards Egwene.

She's a know-it-all. Not so much in a knowledge sense (although she does know a lot from Siuan's training), but more as in "I'm right and everyone else is wrong." I hate to generalize, but I would bet that most people in the world are bothered by that. Who here can say they enjoy listening to someone like that? I think the term "know-it-all" pretty much sums it up, and that's why Egwene bothers so many readers.

I forgot the know-it all thing. I have talked to professors and other active knowledgeable people and sometimes am just amazed and astounded by the the level and depth of knowledge. Imagine having one of those live 200yrs and then meeting a 19yo know it all, brr.... Luckily for her Egwene has an aura of intelligence -40 so this does not happen.

Also, I write a whole list of reasons and get not a single reply and Redhandbandman writes a stupid, borderline trolling, post and everyone responds, what gives? *goes and cries in the corner*

Seriously though, feedback would be appreciated!

Some reasons why I dislike our young Amyrlin, and some cons for balance:

I do not like the hypocrisy of flirting and giggling with Aram? (the mentally unstable tinker)and then being pissy with Rand.

Con.: Stop complaining about a teenage girl having fun and being silly.

I do not like Egwene's attitude to dumping Rand and letting Elayne be the rebound girl.

Con: it is not easy to communicate such things in any case.

I do not like Egwene's attitude to Rand when he wanted to know the location of Salidar.

Con: He was not being subtle about it. Still her attitude sucked imo.

I do not like the way Egwene lies to the wise ones, no honor there. She got her honor back only because the Aiel are the most forgiving people in the word if you let them whip you.

Con: she atoned for it so there.

I do not like how Egwene treated Nyneave when covering her ass.

Con.: None.

I do not like Egwene's thoughts and handling of Mat's Band.

Con.: i dunno

I really do not like Egwene's treatment of Siuan after being saved from the tower. Uncalled for, arrogant, uninterested in the motivations and reasons of a woman who was Armylin for years and years, insulting to Gareth and her about their relationship. Foul stuff.

Con.: Maybe she was high on righteousness.

I do not like Egwene's treatment of Gawhine.

Con.: He is a little female dog so perhaps it is suitable.

I do not like Egwene's treatment of Nyneave during her testing. I would disown and rip the eyes out of any 'friend' who let people do that to me. Con.: dunno

I do not like Egwene's perception of Nynaeve's backing of Rand. Con.: I would be paranoid too if I knew ta'veren effects existed.

So this is why, by and large, I do not like Egwene. It is not exhaustive and she does have redeeming aspects. Especially Nynaeve suffers at Egwene's hands and since Nynaeve is always motivated by caring for people it grates more.

Maybe Elan Tedronai and randsc can have a discussion about this? ;-)