Am I the only one who found the whole anti-Balefire thing to be a bit of an ass-pull?

Not likely, however I will argue in its defense.

 

Consider "Belief and order give strength." The italicized portion, order gives strength, is one way of describing the strength of crystal structures. Even if it was BS's addition, I feel as if it fits merely to continue the theme of balance. A weave to fray the Pattern (increasing entropy/chaos) and a weave to restore it (decreasing entropy/chaos).

I can buy her weave putting the crystal scabs on the fissures being caused by all the balefire.

I can buy that beam hitting Taim's balefire and cancelling each other out.

But the bit about how the beam would kill only those who had turned to the shadow? Sorry, bit too much of a stretch.

 

Also, it has been mentioned several times that all angreal and sa'angreal have buffers that prevent overdrawing, with Callandor being the notable exception. The part where Egwyne dies has a throwaway line to say that the sa'angreal she's using also lacks that buffer. You'd think this would have come into play or at least been mentioned in all the times in this book and the last one it was being used. Again, bit of an ass-pull.

I agree with your 3rd point, I disliked that as well. I also agree about the lack of a buffer being ridiculous. The balecrystallization (I like how awkward that word is) was a good show, but it could have been introduced and integrated so much more eloquently...

Am I the only one who found the whole anti-Balefire thing to be a bit of an ass-pull?

Not likely, however I will argue in its defense.

Consider "Belief and order give strength." The italicized portion, order gives strength, is one way of describing the strength of crystal structures. Even if it was BS's addition, I feel as if it fits merely to continue the theme of balance. A weave to fray the Pattern (increasing entropy/chaos) and a weave to restore it (decreasing entropy/chaos).

The size of the Trolloc Armies were never stated, but likely around 1 million for each front.  The Sharan army, probably 1 million as well.  Shadow Forces, 5 million. The Light Forces, 1.5 million or so.

Not even close to one million, unless BS's wording was just that off. He writes the forces to be closer to two hundred thousand at each front. The end of ToM puts the force Lan faces between 150,000 and 200,000. This is woefully inadequate, as it should be closer to the one million you guess to fit the scale of the story. None of the other fronts are written in a way to suggest anything much larger than a couple hundred thousand. And the Aiel are definitely underwritten, as they should number greater than half a million despite losses to battle and despair.

Numbers/descriptions off, battle plans ridiculous, excuses made to weaken channelers and a huge example of the "tell don't show" style in these last three books in relation the plans themselves. You can't just tell the readers they are brilliant plans when the flaws are so readily apparent.

I recall doing a vague tally just after ToM and finding there should be roughly 4 million (on the low-side) total troops present at Tarmon Gai'don, though I don't know where I came up with my Trolloc numbers. There were not even half that in aMoL if I read it correctly.

Rand recognized Moridin using it in Shayol Ghul, too...though he didn't think about it until KOD.

*Shadar Logoth

is that page 52 and is it the big white book? if so, i have it

Yes to both, I think. I've never actually seen the BWB...

is there a link to this theory?

sounds really cool

Sorry, closest I can come up with is [The World Of Robert Jordan - The Wheel Of Time - 52] detailing an entry by Aran son of Malan son of Senar. Because it is in the Guide, it can be assumed to be fact, not a theory.

when did Ishamel wake up in randland?

Around 983 NE, which is 5 years after Rand is born.

I always thought that too, but it couldn't have happened like that. The whole reason Rand doesn't help Ingtar with the fade (other than fear) is that he wants to get to Egwane in the dungeon as fast as he can. How could Ingtar have had time to beat him down there to free Fain without at least running into Rand on his way out?

 

If the encyclopedia says he released him, I will accept that, but he must have done it before his encounter with Rand & the fade. Especially considering Fain & the trollocs needing enough time to write all that stuff on the wall.

Just went back and looked at that, you're correct. The encyclopedia is a bit misleading, specifically-

When the attack begins, Ingtar sends Rand away when a Fade appears. He then goes to the dungeon with the Fade and frees Padan Fain. Later, he reports that the Horn was stolen. He knew nothing about earlier orders to bar the gates. (TGH,Ch6)

Good catch.

Currently doing a reread and am on tGH. Is it known who freed Fain at Fal Dara?

 

My best guesses are Ingtar, Verin, or Liandrin.

Ingtar released him, according to the encyclopedia. When he told Rand to flee the Fade, they instead pretended to fight and left to free Fain after Rand was out of sight.

I'd say the belief would be Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount.

 

You have to have the belief, and a definite lack of Chaos.

My thoughts on the subject. I'm too lazy to even paraphrase it.

At the time, Ishmael wanted the Dragon to serve him. He needed to know for sure which was the Dragon before he could bend his will.

I was going by something I saw on Discovery (or NG, I don't remember). I've checked again, and apparently I was a little confused - cooking doesn't contributes to the nutrition value of meat, it only increases the calories-intake from eating meat. If you need a reference, this will do: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/02/090213-human-diet-cooking.html

 

Please refrain from leaving offensive comments.

Please do some research before countering an argument (and assuming someone has left an offensive comment). Cooking vegetables and starchy foods breaks down starches and heavy proteins, which is good. I never even mentioned that point. We were discussing cooked meat. Cooking meat destroys certain vitamins, leeches minerals, and fragments proteins. For a modern human, the difference is negligible. There are benefits to cooked meats, but that has nothing to do with their nutritional value. Raw meat = More nutritional. That is all I ever stated.

Also, if you take offense to me correcting something you said I may have to leave an offensive comment. Lighten up.

*Though I will concede you didn't make anything up, you just misremembered something. So, my bad on calling you out on that.

I get that.

By the way, cooking isn't necessarily a sign of delicate taste, it actually increases the nutrition value of meat. That's the main reason that the discovery of fire was such a big deal for our ancestors.

And some animals do have a higher tolerance to spoiled meat than ours. Dogs and cats are the obvious examples. I don't know regarding crops, though. I think there're rotten bananas in what we feed cows with, but I'm not sure.

Please refrain from making things up on the spot. Cooking meat destroys nutrients exponentially as the heat increases. The reason fire was so important is that it can kill bacteria. Prior to refrigeration and bacterial treatments it was the only way to keep meat edible for longer than a few hours. We traded nutrition for storage.

That's all I have to say on the matter for now, though I am of the mind that Blightstrain crops were originally fed to trolloc herd animals and now Ishmael is breeding a strain that humans can eat.

Successful Counter-Argument

I'll trust the BWB on this one, I really need to read it eventually.  :-\

They used portal stones. And you'd use channelers probably, since you'd need channelers to be able to use the portal stones anyway and channelers would probably be the most effective means of capturing these things without killing them - just wrap them up in Air.

No, I'm pretty sure the Seanchan exotics are just that, Seanchan. The grolm were seen in the mirror world because they somehow got from Seanchan to the mainland in that world. It would be pretty hard to find mirror worlds strong enough to be accessed yet have that many major evolutionary differences. Unless the BWB says otherwise, since I have yet to read that.

BFing the already dead body wouldn't have made any differnece anyways I think. DO needs only the soul to transmigrate and the soul leaves the body upon death.

Good point. I don't suppose the soul would be affected since it had already left.

What happened to ishamaels body after Rand killed him in tDR, could they have balefired the dead body and cut him out of the pattern

They had no reason to at the time, and now is too late. They didn't know that the DO could trans-mitigate souls until tGS.

Does anyone have any proof against the Dark One being Past, Existence being Now, and the Creator being Future?

I'd hate to board a thought train only to wreck halfway there...

*That doesn't seem clear enough, so-

The Dark One is the Past, he is Destruction. Existence is the fleetingly immeasurable amount of Time that makes up Now and the Dark One is the essence of Then, that which no longer is. The Bore is not a 'hole', the Bore is a weakening between Now and Then, Life and Death, Present and Past, Existence and Destruction. Saidin and Saidar push Existence along the Pattern, keeping it Now. The Dark One is trying to slow that Now and make it Then, destroying Time itself.

Nearly half the Aes Sedai defected to the Dark, so there were hundreds of thousands of Dreadlords (although they were all called Forsaken back then IIRC).Plus all the angreal, sa'angreal and ter'angreal.

I meant the specific atrocities associated with each of the current Forsaken.

The Forsaken had armies of their own to destroy the cities.  Of course they could've Balefired some cities then realized the consequences and stopped but those stories became legend.

 

I have a question about the Forsaken and having any angreal.  If they were sealed away in the bore, wouldn't the items be sealed with them?

That's the other alternative.

For the second part-

1. The forsaken would never trust each other enough to allow everyone to bring their own angreal.

2. Bringing a sa'angreal to Shayol Ghul is probably a bad idea in itself since channeling in it's vicinity gets exponentially painful.

3. What would be the point? That's like a congressman bringing an AK-47 into Congress. Everyone would be fine with it if he had the AK-47 on a battlefield, but in the Capitol building everyone else would team up on him instantly.

This has been what has been curious to me in the series.  The the AOL we heard "legends" of the Forsaken wiping out hundreds of thousands of people at a time.  Cities fell at their fury.  Was this simply legend?

Possibly. Though, by Lews Therin's memories most of the tragedies really did happen, so I just assumed that the Forsaken had access to stolen sa'angreal during the War of Power.

That could be a supremely opportunistic lie.  How did Semirhage know she was going to die otherwise?  I realize she had the collar but it is not clear if it is functional where the TP is concerned.  Unless Rand somehow forced her to channel it against herself.

No... she felt him go against her will and saw him destroy the Domination Band without Saidin. I'd say what was happening was very clear to anyone who knew of the TP. Also, the TP is much more destructive than Saidar, she knew she was dead the second she figured out that the spear of fire hadn't been Saidin.

This new position seemed odd to Garon, the weight of authority settling around his shoulders was odd. First Rebuilder was a new title but already the other Aes Sedai and Asha'man were regarding his earlier weakness as a new strength. Wondrously white stone sparkles as it flowed like water towards the site of the Tower. Flows of Earth, magnified by the full circle with angreal, shaped the rubble into a solid gleaming surface. Glancing down at the diagram in his hands, Garon aligned the walls before altering the weave and strengthening the stone, hopefully locking it in place for good this time.

Not bothering to turn around, Garon wove an Amplifier and called out, "First floor is complete, raise to second!" Behind him, a circle of thirteen lifted him another story on a platform of air. All around, servants who had stayed scurried into the New Tower, eager to replace the doors and furnishings that had been salvaged. It felt so right to have a White Tower in the world, no matter it's current height. Garon's report on the rebel in Kindy two days ago had convinced the Aes Sedai that the world needed such a symbol again, though he hadn't expected the promotion. As the second floor began to take shape a group of warders carrying something and their Aes Sedai strode out of the Traveling Hall, their faces quite sour even under those calm shells that all, well most, Aes Sedai hid behind.

That was not his concern though, and he returned his attention to a stairwell on the western side. The second floor was done before they had gotten to where Silviana stood watching on the opposite end from the Traveling Hall. Most Whites had estimated that every floor could be finished by noon tomorrow if they took only the sunless hours as rest tonight. Already the sun was halfway past it's zenith, but the work was fast given the raw power he had access to. Weaving another Amplifier, tying it off this time, Garon called out to be raised another story. He glanced down at the newcomers as he rose, they seemed distressed, but he could hear nothing because of the distance. Minutes later Garon was finished with the third floor, but the circle lowered him this time when he called to be raised.

As his feet touched down an Accepted curtsied and asked 'The First Rebuilder' to follow her to Silviana Sedai. Chuckling, Garon waited for her to move first, he knew where to go but there's was no need to be rude on a day as wonderful as this one. His smile slid off crookedly when he arrived, that 'something' they had been carrying was a man missing a leg. He had obviously been healed, but there was still blood all over him. The Amyrlin Seat walked into the crowd from the other side just as he did, but Garon held his tongue. The First Rebuilder was a temporary position, barely higher than a public Ajah Head.

"What is going on here?" Egwene asked in an icy cool voice that spoke of displeasure at the interruption. "You are Asha'man Daryn are you not? You were in Saldaea, how did you sustain these injuries?" The man sat up straighter, but he still looked a pathetic thing, even with the two pins on his collar.

"Trollocs, Amyrlin. Trollocs and darkfriends everywhere. I'm afraid they've taken Irinjavar, Maradon, and probably Mehar too by now. They'll move on the Tower soon, mark my word on it. Tomorrow most likely, they've been rolling through any resistance and with traveling they could be anywhere. They call themselves the 'Shadowscarred' though I can't see the significance in it. More importantly, they have dreadlords, many dreadlords." Garon froze, everyone but Daryn was staring at him now.

"What?"

Question.

I'm 95% certain it was Mesaana, I don't know why she didn't hide her strength, but it was her.