Ok, well if you say so, I acquiesce. I secretly still believe I am right, but I won't argue it further. Hopefully the thinking of it has been entertaining, useful or edifying! (I was nice to talk since long time.)

Jyp, if you are a black belt yudo expert watching others learn to wrestle(and a bad person), might you not sneer.

I don't believe balefire burns or erases a soul from the pattern, it simply burns it back in time. Andra, I like your thinking, but no one has said someone burnt a little way can't be resurrected. All we have is the Dark One's apparent frustration of not being able to bring Rahvin back.

Then Rand used Callandor on the Seanchan offensive or defensive, but had an Asha'man get it for him.

Sammael could kill Rand save in self-defence per the Dark Lords order presumably, but he could lay a trap on him. Like Graendal wanted Sammael to kill Rand, Sammael wanted Rand to kill himself trying to get Callandor. That Rand was afraid of using Callandor, Sammael did not know, it would have been something he would have tried to prepare against.

Anyway this is off-field from Be'lal, who sure would have wanted Rand get rid of Sammael -- Be'lal and Sammael were not friends, nor were any Forsaken to each other.

By the way, this be a tidbit that came to mind but because of mentioning that Sammael thing:

Sammael was very certain that Rand would fall, and because he was certain Graendal fell for it too. In the Path of Daggers Narishma said, was it Narishma, anyway the Asha'man Rand sent for Callandor said the traps "weren't as you said." Obviously the traps in the Stone of Tear for the great cache and particularly Callandor were so that even the Forsaken did not dare to try to get past.

This, or that, does not say, Sammael couldn't alter the trap. So someone, say Narishma (it was some other asha'man) managed to think through the difference. Anyway, Sammael though Rand would go after him, go grab Callandor and....  be caught in that modified trap. Rand was just ass enough not to pay attention when he heard.

A credible plan by Sammael, he didn't expect someone to go get Callandor for him, who would sort of think before he opened the lock with the wrong key. Sammael expected Rand to die getting Callandor, Graendal thought Sammael had found a key to Rand, and Rand ... lucked out.

To the Original Post, I haven't found this difficulty. I can say that everything gets more complicated down the way, also I guess the binaryism. It's still binaric at the end, and I don't know if I disagree, but things get more complicated. If I say too clearly, Trollocs won't be the only thing to worry about, and I don't mean Myrddraal and Draghkar.

Sorry for commenting on my own post, but only Be'lal is available, and he fits well. I quickly stated that before I forgot it.

Around this time Aginor, Balthamel, and Ishamael too are reinstated. The prohibition of balefire really comes if it goes back far enough. Surely 10 seconds does not matter to the Dark One.

So, charecterisation fits Be'lal, not that I have any particular affinity to him. Do I know more, say when he counsels Rand on Sammael, he simply knows too much to be of this age.

Hey, I just thought of this, and thought it could be conversed. (Great tv show too, though I cringe at any change, marvel at the visuals)

I still think Taim as of LoC is Be'lal brought back, so that same as for Osan'gar and Aran'gar, Taim was captured, and Be'lal's soul or mind was put into his body.

I must now then preface this with my understanding, and counter the more usual arguments, and give a little more than last time 5 or 6 or 7 years ago.

To begin, I think Mazrim Taim was as a certain powerful male channeller captured from Aes Sedai who were carrying him toward Tar Valon, and taken against his will again to Shayol Ghul, where he was implanted with no other than Be'lal's soul. He was there set off to Rand to pose as Taim. He has Taim's memories, though some of Be'lal's as well. Some may say "balefire" at this point, I will address that, but let me continue lest the telling become disjointed.

There had been a Taimandred theory, that Taim be Demandred in disguise, but I cannot see that as of LoC. Demndred is too arrogant, and taller too. Not much is known about Be'lal, except the named Envious and Netwiever. He had also resented others being above him. I think Rahvin was right that should Demandred ever have seen Rand, he would have tried to kill him, no that was Lanfear who claimed that. No matter. It is certain that in LoC Taim displays Forsaken degree of knowledge: he was not suprised at the weave for Travelling, was surprised at Rand not know how to test whether other males could channel (How would a false dragon actually come across that knowledge), and said things like "those so-called Aiel" which generally thirdagers don't know.

Where was I. Yes, Be'lal's soul was for the Dark One to use, since Moiraine used, to her maximum capacity, what was described as a "thin bar of light." This is in contrast to how Rahvin was killed. Thinking of the mechanics of it, it must matter how far back from death one dies, that the Dark One can snatch the soul. One hour must be different than a few seconds as in Mat's case in Shadow Rising, and Moiraine's balefire against Be'lal sounded the same as the description of how Rand saved Mat.

I must address some obvious counterarguments. Let me do so elegantly, that is swiftly. Be'lal was a swordmaster, so he sneered at the beginners attempts at this craft or artform, also this wounded Andoran who thought to teach it. In the last book Demandred quite puts down Taim, but rather the Envious got the same trearment from Demandred also during the War of the Shadow, both were initially for the light. What else is there. I can't remember, so I'll go into the last paragraph.

Bashere had not obviously met Taim, else why ask are you he, and he answered "I shaved." But obviously Taim had heard much about him. Obviously the character is completely different. If, guessing, Mazrim Taim had been a sort of roughish character, this suave diplomat in his form would not fit him at all. Thinking how arrogant Lews Therin must have been, and thinking him as Be'lal, I can literally hear his teeth grinding when Rand starts to want to put a medal on his chest --I did all this and here he flounces in and takes all the credit and then tells me how cute a puppy I am. Of course doesn't excuse turning to the shadow, and not every Light general did, only Demandred, Sammael and Be'lal, but I can understand the resentment.

Did I say everything, well that was long enough, discuss if you please, Light willing!

Great watch. Glad to hear interviews, though canon is canon.

Not to say too much, but, jsbrads, and I am going to go beyond the rule that anything beyond the but has not significance; what happened to Owen happened to most of the lads so gentled. Their former dear neighbours were no longer so dear, they inevitably tried to lynch them. So they died, and if they had families, those probably died too. Tower law tried not to have that happen, and that even that those men got a chance, like Algarin,

now where was this, didn't mean to hijack anything, keep on as you would.

The Cairhienin tree, Laman was of course free to cut it down, but by doing so he destroyed a peace offering by the Aiel. The Aiel set to kill him for it, though to a lesser extent they blamed all Cairhienin.

On the second, Tower Law.

Tower law, they didn't follow it, and got caught. If you put it that way.

Punishment was exectution if it was caught, but they could so it so it was not caught. Even now, how to verdict someone who killed someone by magic.

I can yet say about the vileness. It was essentially a grey Amyrlin allowed pogrom. Tower law states that the man must be identified, brought to the Tower, tested perhaps, given justice as we see the late end on Egwene's Accepted trial, gentled and then given the allieviating treatment (thus Logain's treatment in the Tower). I make a lot of deductions, but I haven't yet even started. What the Red did, (perhaps one of them outside Elaida had had a foretelling) was to kill every male child who could be suspected of being able to channel. It may have been started by the Black, who killed the Amyrlin Moiraine and Siuan stood attendance to in New Spring, but the vileness was mostly (the black ajah killed many prominent sisters then), the vileness of killing the children, was mostly carried out by the red, a part of who then killed Sierin Vaiyu the successor of Tamra Ospenya. The Grey was implicated (not punished) in this, because of the Amyrlin, but the Hall (I think) rightly sent the Red Sitters (did they all have a part in that) into penance. Elaida avoided punishment no doubt as a new sister, though that was reflected in her orders for the Black Tower later. This what they did happened to Thom's nephew, and Moiraine a blue could know who was responsible.

So the vileness was to kill or gentle without any later treatment over a thousand men or male children. Alviarin's pov mentions this, later, when Ishamael had been furious at Tamra beying killed, he raised Alviarin to head the Black Ajah, and she had to do all her convincing the black had nothing to do with killing Sierin. Later who was it was bored listening to Chesmal telling she had induced the Red to kill Sieryn. (the one who didn't liek doing embroidery but did it because then Chesmal wouldn't talk to her, Asne, I think). Chesmal had brought news of Tamra's death after all, she might have been uncovered -- pure deduction nowhere mentioned. Siuan left that note written in her lesser left hand before leaving then. Suppose Sierin acted on it and started asking questions. Chesmal knew she had lied to a breakfast-room full of people.

I'll just answer a few things, concrete ones.

Yea, obviously Moiraine avoided the White Tower mostly, since she had her search going, but she did clearly during the 20 years go there sometimes. Anayia did say they miss her, they get to see her too seldom, or something like that, not that they didn't see her at all since New Spring.

A general might not come to face to face fighting with the Aiel. Gawyn could not have seen them, but he did say Rand fit the depctions of Aiel he had heard. He a person who had been taught the major depictions of people in all the countries, aside from their typical characterists, trades and imports. Not just regions of Andor, but all the countries. I suppose, nobility have little else to do so they might learn those things.

Last you said, I think something the author wanted to bring across, but for the reader to notice: it may not be so different; it is art not a lecture. But realistic too, what you said earlier, say renaissance Europe was very cruel, particularly but not exclusively for those not nobly born.

I cannot remove it, since I am not a mod of this board, but I sent the wish to administer who can do it when they have time.

I think this would be better at the ordinary WoT discussion forum, if it gets wing it gets wing, but starting with those potential spoilers it doesn't here. This spot is for long term discussions, but your isn't proven that yet.

We must have common sense! Or too Noble sense! I will no only promote male nudity, but I think that is probably just been failed to been mentioned.

If your already doomed, you give it the best shot, as there by him, direct assault. No one knew of the Seanchan, until it was too late. It was too late to back down, so die with honour and hope by miracle achieve something.

To elaborate. Bornhald knew they were in enemy territory. He knew the enemy knew of it. The longer they remain there, the more the enemy would know. The best chance of anything would be a direct attack. Of course it's all wrongheaded, Seanchan are not Shadowspawn for one, but not attacking then wastes the one possible advantage they had which was surprise. Anyway, attacking a retreating army is easier than defending against a charging one, nevermind the numbers.

There are worse things than dying for a just cause. Alternative is going back to the Questioners' arms, remember he had disobeyed orders. Also, even if it was possible to retreat and run, general military understanding says it was not, if it was possible, what would he then be doing?!

What would you have done instead?

They had done their part by the Pattern, as far as the Pattern was concerned they could die. Before the Pattern needed them, or it would have some doing achieving the same weaving. Remember, the Pattern is ambivalent to human fate, as long as it can weave what it means to.

Anyway, death is not so terrible, as vitnessed by Egwene there. Clearly, she had done her part, and was pretty satisfied. Whatever comes after. The after death Egwene was not grieving her part.

And it need not be an inconsistency in the writing, Masema was inconsistent. As seen in Samara, one time one thing is important, next time it is forgotten. It can be true too. One wouldn't expect an overall strategy from Masema.