I began rereading the entire series (kind of for the 4th time) last summer, one after the other for continuity. I was moving, and WOT helped my moving and covid-era stress. ?

I just wrapped book 7, and I can say my original impressions of some of the young principal characters is a bit different this time around (like jeez, Nynaeve is such a bully! Get over yourself!). 

One thing to note, every one of the prime characters (not including Black Ajah nor the Forsaken) is on their own unique learning curve, and the author meant for us to be sometimes frustrated with their takes on each other and others. 

It is indeed common to hear not only women jest among themselves about men, which might often be characterized as fond complaints.

Yet far more appalling, indeed hateful, is what is too often said by many men to each other about women in the most negative and objectifying sense.

That is the truth of our society, though I would give credit where it is due to men of higher consciousness than a chauvinist. And credit to some women and men who have raised their children to have respect for others and self respect.

Those who complain about WoT women to excess seem to be either so young as to have little experience of actual societal relations in all their contradictions and variayions, but there are some fewer here who may be chauvinist themselves and have trouble with the tables being turned.

Live and learn. Live and learn.

I agree with Cindy and Doodoo. And wonder that some males get what RJ did with his world and that others just seem to react quite uncomfortably to strong women. I would rather have the types that fit the former category for friends! As a woman I could never stand it when a sister won't stand up for herself; but I really hate arrogant men.

Late at night, a few pages of the BWB every night before sleep.

During my commute to work, reading STAR TREK: THE ROMULAN WAY by Diane Duane and Peter Morwood (#35 Star Trek). It's a good one, if you like the Trek books. Fascinating! in fact.

Were you not indeed responding to my post, and the points on age and life experience?

Though it may be as you say with a lot of the Aes Sedai avoiding the world, never leaving the Tower. But we are talking about Cadsuane, aren't we?

And yeah, I do think that those of us who are older should not always be so worried that youth will think we are flaming them. I flamed my own self. And I really do try to learn from my mistakes. It is the only way to avoid making the same ones!

I guess you never noticed that Cads did not spend much time in the Tower, didymos?

And yeah, it's not just long life, it is also learning and learning from one's mistakes. The choice is YOURS. Get it?

Add Age and Experience to the Equation and One Understands Cadsuane all the Better

or: Cadsuane's Not Just Aes Sedai, She's an Elder

It's a great exposition and I agree that she is misunderstood by many. But I am surprised that you leave out one really obvious point, Luckers, and that is their relative AGES and the knowledge of interpersonal relations that one may acquire in life over many years of trial and error. She's an elder. He is still a young man, especially so in relation to an elder.

Is it not obvious that Cadsuane is of great age? Cadsuane is only able to adapt to the needs of each personality on the basis of years and years of experience. She was not "born yesterday." Not by any means.

Is it not obvious that Rand is still a relatively young man? He reacts in a fiery way to stress. As you point out through the passages, he is often not in control of his emotions. This is more typical of youth than of great age. He does not always listen well either, which is also something most of us have to learn to do better.

Further, we have all known older people who, for reasons of ill health, and/or lack of patience, have become pushy or bossy toward their younger kith and kin. Do we go off on them or do we try to be patient with them? As you elucidate so well, Luckers, Cads does not do that all the time. She's fairly conscious of her treatment of each person. But she does tend to fall back on bossiness to make a point, as opposed to the majority of Aes Sedai who make a practice of bossiness out of arrogance and privilege.

Allow me to speak from my own experience for a moment. When I was in my early 20s, I recall that while I had older friends, the moment that one of them spoke to me about myself in a way that was based on their knowing better than I, from the POV of years of experience, I immediately went into a knee-jerk reaction. "You can't tell me!" And I would become insufferable. I had not learned to listen! At the time, I thought I was right. Looking back, even in those cases where I was right, I could have been more patient with them as they were only trying to be helpful.

Now, fast peddle 30 years, 30 more trips around the Sun, and at 55, I have learned to listen, for the most part. It took me years and though I am more patient now, I still joke that I am working on patience. But I will act quickly when I see someone in danger!

For example, five years ago, I was in a Kmart walking up to an escalator, and a 20-something new-age couple were at the bottom of an escalator looking up at the top where their three-year-old was hanging from the banister. "Come down here, Sweetie. This way." As though the kid was old enough to process their request! As if he was not about to take a tumble down a flight and maybe break himself in a serious way! I was right behind the kid. I picked him up under my arm and carried him down to them, handed him to them and said, "he could have fallen," and walked away. A man behind me stopped me and lectured me for five minutes how I could have been arrested for intervening. And I shook my head and said that would be better than watching him kill himself for want of smarter parents.

Jordan's principal characters develop maturity through their experiences and need

In fact, Jordan has done such a subtle job of writing his young characters growing up in the course of the strife and struggle between Light and Dark, one could miss it although it is one of many strong points in his characterizations. Nynaeve and Egwene grew up. Sometimes they're still working on it! Perrin and Mat have gone through plenty of changes since they left the Two Rivers; they were boys and now they are men. Some of those growing pains were palpably painful to us, the readers and fans!

Rand has had the worst time of it clearly, and he's been under the greatest stress. But he had not till the very end of TGS overcome the utter despair of what he understood of the prophecies foretelling his destiny. And he was still throwing tantrums (such as that he threw at Tam when he nearly killed his father). Rand's been under way too much stress and has had no break from it. He was about due for a meltdown! For yes, he is human! And he is still learning the meaning of his own humanity!

Cadsuane is hundreds of years old. She has enough experience to get it when action on her part is called for. She gets it that sometimes it's better to listen, maybe impart advice, but then to let it ride when Rand won't listen. She's got a method in her interpersonal relations as you spelled out in the passage with Nynaeve, Luckers. It's a method she had perfected long in the past, clearly.

The only person in Rand's party older than she is Alivia; but poor Alivia has been a slave for hundreds of years which has definitely impacted her development as a human being. There are so many experiences she never had in life. She's wise despite that in her own way. But she lacks any experience in interpersonal relations.

In the final chapters of TGS, Rand threw that particularly horrid and dangerous tantrum at Tam, and in his resultant despair and grief, he set out to enact a seriously dangerous attack on the Seanchan but which he did not effect due to the experiences he had on the street with the people, and following which he went to the top of Dragonmount, emotionally blinded on top of LTT's gravesite. Rand then climbed to the top of Dragonmount, following a passage a few pages earlier about how that climb would kill most men, btw. There he releases all of his grief and his pain and doubt-—it was Tam's words that he repeated in his head when he made the decision to change his attitude and his entire perspective on his burdens and his duties, on his destiny—he made his internal attitude adjustment based on his father Tam's words of advice.

Therefore, although bringing Tam to Rand could have been handled better, ultimately it worked. Though at the end of TGS, Cads and Nynaeve and Min and Tam don't yet know it.

I got a lot more substance out of the second read of TGS than the first. There is so much in TGS winding up the various threads of the saga before the final chapters, my second read I read just a passage at a time and then thought about each one before picking the book back up.

As you said, Luckers, she makes mistakes too. And she learns from them sometimes as well. That is the best we can do in life! We try not to make the same mistake twice!

I like Cadsuane better on my second read of the series. Based on my own life experience, I appreciate the brilliance of Jordan's characterizations and their individual growth and analyses based on their own development. He's a master of fantasy. His characters are NOT flat. They are fully developed.

And, with all due respect, I think that is what some fans don't YET understand, but what they may later understand if they should live long enough and fully enough. Cadsuane is a great case in point!

I'm on book 6 in my second read through of the series and I realized that I absolutely hate the Aiel.

I find it fairly infuriating how Jordan bangs on constantly about how tough the Aiel are. Them and the Asha'man really. But I can accept that the Asha'man are as powerful as he says they are because their power comes from channeling and Jordan decides all the the powers and limits of channeling, so the Asha'man are as badass as he wants them to be.

 

I think in my first read through I was on book 3 or 4 before I realized the Aiel were meant to be humans. Until then I thought they were a separate species like the Ogier.

 

Does anybody else feel this way? Or am I just a racist?

You have by now fully convinced me that you are indeed at least prejudiced against the Aiel. As I said in my first post (page one of the thread?), if you suspect that you harbor such hatred toward one of the main nationalities of humans in Randland then perhaps you should examine what it is truly about.

For as many others have so patiently pointed out, your military arguments are full of holes.

I suspect you are what folks call an "armchair general" and although there are among the members who refuted your arguments actual retired military personnel, you convince yourself that you know more than they or Robert Jordan himself (who attended the Citadel).

Again I find myself on the same wave length with MatsLuck!  ;)

I had initially mentioned the Vietnamese in my post, but decided to shorten it.

When the Vietnamese first began to fight the French, they only had bows and arrows, (along with the love of their home and their people and the will to fight any invading forces).

I'm not fond of the faction that split off. But no; I don't really have a problem with Aiel as a whole.

I like it that they have no monarchy; that their leadership is chosen by different methods than birthright.

I think we are supposed to feel shocked that their customs are foreign to the wetlanders. Those of the Seanchan are even more foreign. Yet in both cases, we begin to meet characters with whom we begin to find their humanity. They have good qualities and also flaws.

As far as the military angle, it might be better to think of them as exercising guerilla warfare to some extent. There is no question of Jordan's knowledge of military science. One can well imagine that there may be encounters in which the Aiel could be destroyed, but it has not yet happened.

Maybe the fact that you did not get it at first that they were human as well is something for you to think more about. Why was that? Because they wear cotton (algodon)? Because they run everywhere? I have known guys who do that. LOL