That's an awesome idea, Polaridin! Except for Robert Jordan's comment:

Question: How did they appear in the sky?

 

Robert Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really.

But I think that the direct correlation between Rand/Whitecloaks vs Ishamael/Seanchan implies some of the effects had to be the Horn.

You all raise good points. But, Robert Jordan says the Wheel--which is different from the Pattern--"is more than a simple mechanism." Also, he continues to say that the Wheel chooses to spit out ta'veren, so the Wheel is taking an active role in world events. Specifically, with it's additions of ta'veren, which are Light sided character (Robert Jordan said, "I can't really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta'veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern.") So, I definitely think the Wheel is in favor of not being destroyed by the Dark One, which would make it lean towards the Light.

getting slightly off topic with the Rand conversation but I have had theory for around 10 years that Rand would be killed and then summoned by the Horn to fight the DO as he would then be immortal and indestructable (how can a mortal man take on a being outside the pattern?)

I think he will need to re-seal the Dark One before he dies. If he dies first, the Dark One will have access to his soul, like Ishamael taunted oh so many books ago. Rand's soul in the hands of the Dark One is not a good thing. Unless it comes down to a tug-of-war, with the DO on one side, Nynaeve on the other, both trying to pull Rand's soul back. Maybe. But I'm thinking Rand will die after the DO is no longer free.

This is all true. But it may happen before the LB is done, i.e. Rand dies, gets resurrected and then completes his task.

The rest of Nicola's foretelling says, "The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

So, when Rand and his girls are on "the boat," the "great battle" is already done. I think that means Tarmon Gai'don is finished by this point. And some time might have passed for the Asha'man to equal the number of Aes Sedai (unless a lot of Sisters die during TG).

I think that could lead to an argument as to whether a soul is actually inside this world, or if they exist on a metaphysical plane. If outside this world, my argument still holds. (Now I'm just being argumentative.)

Also, yes, it was saidin.

Question: Someone had a question about Machin Shin in the Ways. Since it seems to absorb the creatures that pass through there, could you regard it as a servant of the Dark One or perhaps almost as a Forsaken?

 

RJ: It's not a servant of the Dark One. It will kill Trollocs or anything else. You can say it's a parasite that grew in the Ways because of the taint and the One Power that was used to initially create the Ways. The talisman of growing that was used to extend the Ways. So it's not a servant of the Dark One, but it's definitely on the evil side.

 

Question: Would it be cleaned with the Cleansing of saidin?

 

RJ: No. Its like a bacteria breed. Just by cleaning up the chemicals that caused the bacteria to come into existence, unless it's feeding on that, those chemicals, you are not going to destroy the bacteria. You simply cut off what helped to create it

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=196

If Min does die--and I'm not convinced she will--it will have to wait till after the Last Battle. There's been too many viewings she's been a part of to die before/during the battle. First off, she sees her own face around Rand's funeral pyre, so she's alive after he dies; then, we have Nicola's foretelling which says "Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives" (Lord of Chaos, Chapter 14, "Dreams and Nightmares"), so we know she lives after Rand is resurrected and the "great battle" is done.

i dunno about that... the taint is in the ways themselves, i dont think that the way's corruption can come outside the ways... for example, the waygates, havent become corrupted... and theyre directly connected to the ways... i dont think that nym would be effected by the taint of the ways... even if theyre both grown by the talisman of growing...

By that logic, the outside skin of the Nym wouldn't be corrupted, but the inside might be. :P

Since the Talisman uses saidin only, I think anything it makes would eventually be tainted.

A few notes on the logic of circular time: has anyone seen the movie Somewhere in Time? This is the basis of how time, as a loop, works. There is a watch the woman has in the past, but gives to the man in the future, who gives it to the woman in the past. Where did the watch come from? Who initially had it? In what time was it actually created?

All the questions and the answers are pretty much the same with everything in Randland. If time is a Wheel, then there was no beginning. There can be no end. All the items, people, places, histories, will continually repeat. So, it doesn't matter who first had the watch. It exists in both places.

There are still some Malkieri women at the Tower. I think, when they hear their Uncrowned King stands in Tarwin's Gap, they will go. In particular, Nacelle Kayama is Malkieiri, and Green. Jesse Bilal, the Head of the Green, is still feeling embarrassed for her lack of battle skills when the Seanchan attacked. I think the Greens can go save the Borderlanders. It wouldn't take much prodding for them to Travel to where the action is already happening.

Morning Mist: Sorry! I've never been pregnant, so don't know for sure! I always though women began to show by three months, though. But, as you said, Nynaeve would have realized something was different in her body--I would think. And if not, I'm sure she would have been delved for various reasons in that time period.

Quote

 

I sent your question to Maria (one of Robert Jordan's assistants) and she said "To the best of my knowledge, the soul comes into play at birth." so there you have it. You can't get a better source than Maria!

Best,

Brandon

 

there ya have it :D it is possible for brigette to die, and be reborn as one of elaynes babies

AWESOME, Mark! Thanks for asking that! And Brandon actually answered! That's so cool!

Though, I have heard theories that Elayne's babies will be Shivan and Calian, the Heroes who bring about the end of an Age:

...Shivan the Hunter behind his black mask. He was said to herald the end of Ages, the destruction of what had been and the birth of what was to be, he and his sister Calian, called the Chooser, who rode red-masked at his side (A Crown of Swords, Chapter 21, "Swovan Night".

Also, I think that the Nym would become corrupted if they were created with the Talisman of growing--like the Ways. We see Someshta is wounded, but I don't think he was corrupted.

actually, the rings that the accepted go through, work similar to TAR, beliefs of the person, forms the scenarios... they are not alternate futures... which is why nynaeve could alter the weaves of saidin, or re-open the exit, she didnt know that she couldnt.

That's interesting, Mark, that you think Nynaeve could feel saidin because she believed she could. I've never seen it that way before. *ponders ponders*

While I agree that the ring is linked to Tel'aran'rhiod, I feel there is some truth to what they see. Look at the example of Egwene being Amyrlin in hers. In the vision of "what will come," she was still quite young, I believe, and I don't think she would ever have thought of herself as Amyrlin without some sort of prophetic link from the rings. Because of that, I think Nynaeve remembers how to feel saidin, maybe from a past life. We learn it is possible when Nacelle Kayama is able to detect Narishma channeling in Salidar (Knife of Dreams, Chapter 23, "Call to a Sitting").

Jack, I'm thinking the army Lan has gathered might be saved by the White Tower, rather than Rand. I don't think Rand will act quickly enough, and the Tower, shamed by not acting quickly enough to save Malkier 40 years ago, will send Sisters to help.

Actually, the one from the glass columns is Someshta, too.

Someshta sat against the wall near the door, a great shape seemingly woven of vines and leaves, his head a little above Jonai's even so (The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 26, "The Dedicated").

And the same chapter, as Coumin:

It was Someshta, surrounded by clouds of butterflies, white and yellow and blue. Excited murmurs rose from the townspeople and the folk whose fields these were, gathered to watch. Each field would have its Nym, now.

Someshta is the only Nym we see. But the last quote does say that each field had a Nym, so maybe there were a couple hundred?

for the record, im not saying it isnt a talent, which it probably is... its just that they probably didnt make so many because they didnt need so many... nym dont work on their own...

Grabbing the soul might be a Talent, but as stated by Robert Jordan, each Nym had to be "hand-crafted." That could be one reason there aren't so many. They might have taken a lot of work to craft a construct--able to host a soul--out of plants and vines.

Hmm, here's the quote (Lord of Chaos, Chapter 23, "To Understand a Message"):

"Only a stasis box. I suppose people tried to save what they could in the last days.” His smile pulled at that awful scar across his face as he beamed around the chamber, with especial fondness for the zara board projecting its field of still-transparent boxes in the air; he had always liked the more violent games. Of course, a zara board meant his stasis box had been filled by someone who followed the Great Lord; possession of a single once-human playing piece had meant imprisonment at the least on the other side. What else had he found?

You make a very good point Stayz. Of course, anything can be meant by saying the pieces were "once human." They could have been transfigured, or have their soul removed, or a dozen other things. Grabbing souls could definitely be a Talent; maybe that's why there weren't so many Nym. I don't think it says right out, but I believe there were only a few Nym made.

Agreed. From Robert Jordan's quote, it seems to say that they were the souls next in line to be born. And instead of being born, they were put inside the Nym construct.

And New Ashaman did bring up a good point that the Aes Sedai probably wouldn't be able to choose which soul is put inside. But as primitive as current Aes Sedai are, they are capable of some pretty amazing inventions.

that, and i dont have privvys to see the white ajah's boards ;-)

Oh... I thought they were open for everyone. :( Sorry!

Can I ask a question that's slightly off-topic, but also related to some secondary theories here?

 

Regarding Birgitte being pulled out of T'A'R. I may be remembering this wrongly, but didn't she say that she was no longer bound to the wheel as a result of how she got yanked from T'A'R by Moghedien? I always took that to mean that this was the last life Birgitte would ever have, and that she would no longer be re-born. If/when she dies this time, it'll be the LAST time for her. No more rebirths. She was, as I recall, extremely upset specifically because Gaidal Cain would be forced to live out all of his future lives without ever finding her, and every future life he would ever have would feel incomplete to him, because the two of them could no longer be together.

 

Am I remembering this wrong? My point is just that if she dies, she will not be reborn, and any theories for Rand "resurrection" based on this same line of thought would have to account for Birgitte's predicament.

I'm not saying anything because it's a big point of next week's theory!

A Halloween Costume Contest! I'm going to have a "Make a Wheel of Time Costume Party" at my house sometime within the next few weeks, so hopefully I'll be ready in time to enter! Yay!

This question has always fascinated me, maybe you could write an article on it. -Was- Birgitte's rip "outside of" the Pattern? If you go back to the first time Loial told Rand about Ta'veren, it seems like "having the soul of a legendary hero ripped from tel'aran'rhiod prematurely" is not in the category of "a small change that the Pattern can accomodate." She's saved Elayne so many times, you have to wonder if Moghedian's actions really were part of the Pattern (making sure there's a strong supernation that will survive after Tarmon Gai'don).

I definitely think Birgitte being ripped out was part of the Pattern's plan. I don't think anything anyone has done has been outside its plan. Even the Forsaken's actions have been according to its plan. That's the point of the Pattern, at least as far as I can make out. It's there to balance the Creator and the Dark One, so it takes good and evil events into account.

i agree, i dont see brigitte living through the last book... she's taken a sword for one... but, i dont think she's been un-made as a hero of the horn... i think she will die, and be reborn almost immediately, in time to get back together with gaidal, as we know is reborn(and we know who he is)... she was also always younger too...

Don't jump the gun, Mark. I'm going to talk about this next week!

If we want to start a philosophical debate over when a soul enters a body, let's go to the White Ajah boards. :P

Sorry, guys. I had midterms due yesterday. :P

A good point was raised about Rand's soul still being "active" in tel'aran'rhiod. Maybe his soul isn't in the waiting area. But, at the same time, those souls do get spun out, so it must be possible to access them. And while I like the idea of a cour'souvra, it's dark magic, and probably not the best way to bring him back.

I think Birgitte's rip from tel'aran'rhiod is what will kill her in the last book. It's not a natural rebirth, and I think her body and mind are revolting against her current life.

What Mark said. Here's the quote:

It didn't affect his vision. You're aware of it, but it's not like there is blackness between you, because it gets thicker and thicker and thicker and you get to a point where if you've used it long enough you get a steady stream even if you're not connected. And you are then on the road, at that point, inevitably, to becoming what Ishamael was. Because these are stigmata, if you will. These saa are stigmata caused by a linkage to the Dark One. And eventually the effect is to become all fire eyes. You no longer have eyes visible to other people. If they're looking into your eyes, they seem to be looking into caverns of flame that stretch to infinity. And when you open your mouth they see another cavern of flame that stretches to infinity. Because you've reached at that point the ultimate level of this usage and quite possibly, if you've at this point not been granted immortality, you're on your way to death. Not madness, but you're on your way to death. So it's sort of a race. The Dark One has given you this boon, but if you use it very much, then you'd better hope he is willing to give you another boon, because if he doesn't give you the second boon then you're dead. Some of the Forsaken have expressed discomfort with the fact that Ishamael and Moridin are so free with using the One Power.

I think the interesting thing here is why the link to the Dark One causes these fiery pits. And also, since the Myrddraal's eyeless face is "not precisely" the same as Ishamael's caverns, what is the difference between Ishamael's link and the Fade's link?

Fades don't have eyes, but they still see. I think they can control vermin, the same as Graendal does. The quote about controlling vermin, implies that it requires the True Power. In the time when the Forsaken were still locked up--early in The Eye of the World, for instance--who is channeling the True Power onto the rats, ravens, etc? I would have to be Myrddraal, I think. No one else should have access to it, since it's reserved for the Forsaken only.

also, in tEotW, lan says that the neverborns ravens/rats, need to report to the neverborn, they cannot see directly through their eyes... now, this is early in the series and may be an inconsistency, or, it may be that the neverborn cannot see through their spies eyes, unlike the forsaken can with the TP...

I don't think it's farfetched to think that Lan doesn't know the inner workings of Shadowspawn. He can believe the vermin have to report to a Fade all he wants; that doesn't make it true.

Great finds as always, peregrine! I like ti when you mix it up a little, as well. To me, the standout this week is the Steel Inquisitor.....absolutely stunning!

I agree. The Steel Inquisitor looks awesome! It's a really great use of black and white (as well as the one of Rand). I love the detail, like Rand's little fat man angreal, and Callandor too. Though my favorite is chibi-Lan and Mandarb! Too cute!

The Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers, i think this is Lan he has know death directly though the bond when Moiraine "died" by falling though the portal to Aelfinn land and the Towers of Midknight probably do belong to the Forsaken and Lan is at Tarwins Gap when his POV in the epilogue ends and one of the Forsaken is the general for the shadow and their horde of trollocs that are surgeong towards the Gap

I like that. The only problem is Lan's House sign in a Crane, not a Wolf. I don't think he has any connection to wolves, in general. But I love the parallel of "Death" from the Bond breaking. He was near the brink, for sure, until Nynaeve's love brought him back. And, if Lan dies at Tarwin's Gap, like many people believe, it would definitely shake the will of men. He is a symbol of hope, even to those not in the Borderlands. (But I personally don't think he'll die; more on this in a few weeks.)

Can't be Egwene: "...and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand..."

Fain did write that part about meeting on Tomen Head, but only after he interrogated the myrddraal to get the info (at least that's my understanding of it based on that interview).