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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Hagazussa

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Posts posted by Hagazussa

  1. Kind of ridiculous how many common fantasy tropes are being used as "proof" that Goodkind was stealing ideas from Jordan.

     

    You don't like Goodkind as a person or you don't like his books that's cool and all but please don't accuse him of stealing.

    Even if he did take ideas from Wheel of Time (something I doubt) there is still a line between outright plagiarism and being inspired by someone else and trying to pay homage to their work.

     

     

    Well paying homage to Jordan, no, it is clear from Goodkind's words that he never respected Jordan in the least, that do not make him a ripoff though. The rest of the above I agree with completely.

     

    Uhhmm no. Drag up some old threads where it is broken down in detail. It is rather telling, again as is the quotes Terez provided.

     

     

    I disagree with you, I do not find the quotes telling, not if you have read any of the quotes by Goodkind on other things, the man is a first grade A hole and will speak derogatory about anyone, that do not mean he have stolen ideas from them, and also have a look at the Fremen and the Aiel for example, they have the exact same concept and the way they react to Rand/Paul is also exactly the same, that is much closer to one another than anything in SoT and WoT.

     

    That said there have been others as bad if not worse. For example the first Shannara book is one of the most cold blooded rip offs of LotR there is.  As the fantasy editor and critic Lin Carter once said:

     

     

    Yeah however I tend to read the books and make up my own opinion instead of listening to what the critics say and I do not really see that either, yes there are superficial similarities between Shannara and Lord of the Rrings, but it is not an ripoff, it is just that Shannara is so very, very generic, it is the fantasy version of plain sponge cake, it is bound to resemble any other cake out there since it is so generic.

     

    Think Goodkind inspires such rage because of who he is as a person and his attitude towrads RJ as much as the similarities between the two works(not to mention his writing isn't really up to snuff).

     

     

    I think Goodkind is a pretty good author, I really enjoy his books, well when he do not go on political rants, but the first seven or so books of Sword of Truth are excellent. To me however this rage from both camps seam a bit like the Sega/Nintendo fan was of the 1980s and 1990s to me, both series where in competition for a while, they deal with similar themes and basically while WoT have always have a foot ahead the situation is rather similar and just like with such console arguments there where fan rage on both sides.

     

    I really can't think of one similarity between the two that couldn't be found in another series.

     

     

    I agree, however I think the problem is the number of similar elements. The series the Banned and the Banished have gender separated magick which is an energy system and the main character is the reincarnation of some legendary mage and is destined to save the world, but everything else in the series is very different, so even if it have those two elements that do not make it to similar to WoT for example, The Riftwar Saga have the characters world invaded by an Ancient China inspired Empire in strange, brightly painted armor, but everything else is different, and so on and so on, all of these things taken by themselves can be coincidence but when to many elements are exactly the same then the work get to be very similar. I think it is the quantity people react to more than single elements, as the single elements are usually rather generic parts of fantasy literature. However I still do not think this makes Sword of Truth a ripoff of WoT.

  2. I look at it this way, look at a garden hose, the hose itself is always there but sometimes you turn it on and then water will flow through the hose, and then you have the neighbors little shit of a kid who comes and tie a knot on the hose and that would be like a shield, however the hose is still there even when it is not in use. Basically channelers in WoT have a connection to the Source and that is always there, unless something tragic happens to them, and this is what they use to shape weaves and see others channel and so on, there is allot of things a channeler can do even when not actively channeling. I mean if they where only connected to the Source when actively channeling then an a'dam for example would not be very useful for then they could take it right off when not channeling. Channelers are a little different from mundanes when when not using their powers.

     

    Channelers can even feel this appendix that Whizbang so eloquently put it, if a weave get cut, fails or is interrupted they feel a recoil which can be shocking or painful, damage to their connection is extremely painful and several places it is mentioned a channeler feeling their connection, it is like if they have a non physical part of their bodies which makes them what they are.

  3. I have never liked Goodkind as a person, I will not go so far as to say that someone I have never met is a horrible human being, but I can say that from what I know of him he is not a person that I like, however I do not buy books based on how much I like the personality, ethics, political views or anything else about the author, I buy books based on whatever or not I enjoy them. Clearly mocking someone who is dying id despicable, that do not change the quality of someone's books.

     

    Now I am not saying that there are not similarities between WoT and SoT however I do not agree that the overall stories are similar they are not more similar than most stories in the same genre, some elements have a striking similarity yes, we all know the Sisters of the Light is Aes Sedai with the serial numbers filed of, however the similarities between SoT and WoT are less obvious than between WoT and Dune and none of it is so similar as to call it a ripoff, that something is similar do not make it a ripoff, even if you do not like the author who have written it.

  4. How does a shielded character break through a shield.  I get that a strong channeler can push against a shield and shatter it (if held by a weaker channeler), or that a shield can be unknotted if is tied off, but what does the shielded channeler use to do the pushing or unknotting?  They can't use saidin/saidar as they can't reach it, but how can they feel the knots if they aren't connected to the source?

     

    Well when Nyn had just healed Logain she shields him and from her point of view she describes feeling like a growing pressure or presence behind that shield, my guess and this is only a guess is that it is the ability to channel itself which is used to break a shield, after all a channeler is always connected to the Source it is just that when shielded they are prevented from actually drawing anything though that connection so my guess is that they use the connection itself, like a spiritual muscle to break a shield.

  5. I am a fan of both Wheel of Time and Sword of Truth in fact they are my two favorite fantasy series and while I like WoT better I do not agree that SoT is bad, however my point with this post is not to argue for the quality of SoT as whatever or not one like a book series is rather subjective. Now to the topic at hand. Yes I can clearly see some similarities between SoT and WoT but many of those similarities are generic to most fantasy of it's type. I have seen it mentioned in this thread the idea of a young nobody who is taken from home by a magickal person, get attacked by strange creatures, learn magic and have a destiny to fight evil, but really this set up is a part of at least 70 percent of all fantasy series I have ever read, are you saying they are all ripping off WoT? And it is not only books, look at for example Star Wars that have the exact same set up, Luke is the nephew of a farmer who have raised him as a son and he gets taken away by a magickal person, get to learn magic and have a destiny to defeat evil. You might as well say that one architect is ripping of another if he to uses four walls and a roof as the ground design for the building. Also if you look at it Lord of the Rings did this as well and that series was published a long time before Wheel of Time, the only difference is that Frodo never learns magic, though he do get several magical items that he uses through the story. Also as for being attacked by strange creatures, the Ringwraiths in Lord of the Rings are much closer to Fades in Wheel of Time that the Gar that attacks Richard near his home in Wizard's First Rule is.

     

    Now it is also mentioned that both series have a big bad evil force for the main character to fight against, well this is also very common in most epic high fantasy series, Lord of the Rings have Sauron for example. You can not say that a series that have a big bad evil entity is ripping of WoT since so many series have had that, long before WoT was even published, I mean the idea of man fighting against what is essentially the Devil is something that have been used since mankind first started telling stories, this is not unique to Wheel of Time. Also we have to look at the role of said evil force in the stories, in WoT the main core of the story is that the main character is to fight this being, in SoT the Keeper is sort of just there, sure he do get involved and his agents create trouble, but the main focus is on Richard fighting human beings and trying to bring his idea of justice to the world, both have a Devil like creature as an antagonist yes, but the role of said creature is very different withing the setting. Now prophecy, magic swords, adoptive parents, a magic that have been lost for X number of long times that is not rediscovered, all of this are common elements in high fantasy and are not unique to WoT.

     

    Now I once heard similar arguments fro some WoT fans that Eragon is a ripof of WoT since it have an protagonist who is a farmer's son, is destined to save the world, learns magic and oh yes there is dragons and I said but you are basically describing about every high fantasy story out there. WoT do not own the idea of the young nobody who learns magic and saves the world, that archetype have been around far longer than the Wheel of Time series and I do recommend anyone who thinks otherwise to check out A hero with a thousand faces by Joseph Cambell.

     

    Now are there some similarities between WoT and SoT however which is not that generic, the idea of gender separated magic, though not unique to WoT is definitely one such thing. However even when there are very similar concepts like for example male channelers vs male confessors the way this is used in the two settings are very different. In WoT the taint on saidin is used as something for the main character to overcome for himself and for others, for SoT there are no male confessor characters, it is rather used as a tragedy to hold over the main character's heads as thee is a prophecy that if they ever have a child it will be a son and then they will be left with a choice, kill this baby or watch him wreck havoc on the world. Now even if male confessors was inspired by male channelers they are so differently used that you can not say they are a ripof.

     

    Now as for the Sisters of the Light, yes they are very similar to Aes Sedai...very similar and I agree that that I think Terry Goodkind have gotten the idea from WoT or he might have gotten the idea from Dune which also have a very similar all female order of magic users. In fact one thing that annoy me just a little bit about this thread is that Terry Goodkind is ragged on allot for potentially getting some ideas from WoT and then changing them around quite allot for his own setting, while it is quite okey that Jordan took quite a bit of things from Dune, in fact Dune and WoT are allot more similar than WoT and SoT is. Now my opinion however is that it do not matter if an author have gotten an idea from another work of fiction and then have something similar in his or her own work as long as it is changed around enough to not be a direct ripof and really the Sisters of the Light is the only things that I would consider to be a ripof of sorts from WoT, the rest of the similarities is of the sort that I can nod and say, oh that must have been inspired by WoT, but it is so different as well that it is definitely it's own thing, inspired by is not the same as a rip of. So a'dam and rada'han, yes the rada'han is a rip of, even the name sound similar, that wizards and sorceresses have problems learning from one another is not a ripoff of WoT however, it can be inspired by it, but the magic system and everything around is so different that here we are talking about either coincidence or being inspired by WoT not ripping it of.

     

    Now as for Seanchan vs the Order, I do not see the similarities there really other than that they are both empires that want to take over the world. I mean you can not say that since WoT have used this concept no other fantasy can ever use it again, in fact the empire in The Riftwar Saga is much more similar to Seanchan than the Order in SoT is I do not see anyone screaming ripoff there.

     

    Yes there are similarities between Sword of Truth and Wheel of Time, but I think that is more that they are of the same genre, there are similarities between most epic high fantasy series. it is the same that there are allot of similarity between CSI and Criminal Minds as they are the same kind of show, that do not mean that one of the ripoff the other, and if one get an idea from some other source of fiction, like I said I see no problem with that as long as it is changed enough to not be a complete copy and for the most part this is the case with SoT.

  6. I can not remember any other than touch being used when it comes to giving damane sensations through the a'dam either but I could have missed something. I do not know about killing the damane through the a'dam, as far as I know that is never mentioned, but if there is no limit to how much pain can be given through the collar then off course that will eventually be fatal. I can not remember any limit being mentioned but I wanted to ask here to see if I had missed something. Thank you both for the replies.

  7. How far do the feelings a sul'dam can give a damane go? I mean we have seen examples of the feeling of being whipped being given, with and without the pain vanishing once the punishment is over, being rolled in nettles is mentioned and being boiled alive, but can the sul'dam give the damane any feeling she can imagine? I mean could she make the woman's who's a'dam she controls feel like her spine is being ripped out though her nostril, just to take a random example or that she is being skinned alive? In short are there any limits? Also can the sul'dam give positive feelings as well, like the feeling of a soothing hand over the damane's back or something like that? I am also wondering if touch is the only sense that the a'dam can replicate or if it can also create vision, hearing, smell and taste illusions for the damane if the sul'dam wills it?

  8. The oath say she can not make a weapon for one man to kill another, her weapon made out of Air would simply dissipate when she was no longer using it so it would be impossible for one man to use it to kill another.

     

    One question, would a Warder feel that his Aes Sedai is shielded. I know the bond go a bit fuzzy, but is that enough for him to sense it. I assume that if she was channeling and was shielded roughly then he would feel her shock as it is described to be like having ice water poured on you, but let us say she was sleeping and someone shielded her carefully and just slid the shield into place, would her Warder know something was up?

  9. I have to agree, I think it was the change of focus. The two first books are very stereotypical fantasy. Book one is your average bad things comes to remote village and some young nobodies have to flee as they have a great destiny and there is even a mysterious warrior and a mage in the mix. The book is very well written but it is generic and like most books of it's kind it follows the point of view of the main character almost exclusively, then we have book two which is more of the same just throw a fetch quest into it. That book to is rather generic until we get towards the end when Seanchan starts to get involved. Book three moves away from the generic fantasy formula, the plot is starting to form, we see massive character development and there is now points of views from allot of different characters. In fact I think what you are having a problem with is that book one and two are rather character driven, it is about Rand and the other Two Rivers kids as they see the big bad world for the first time and learn about their various destinies, in book three the story shifts from being character driven to being story driven, it is now less about the characters and more about the start of a tale about the end of a world and everything that happens around that, with the characters themselves being more tools to tell the story, instead of the story being about the characters, at least that is how I see it.

  10. Also, I don't think there is such a thing as baby fades. We don't know

    the process that makes them, but I imagine that they are either

    full-grown people converted to fade (much like Darkhounds are corrupted

    wolves), or they have a very rapid gestation/growth process (I am

    thinking of the Uruk Hai).

     

    Actually there are baby fades. Now Myrddraal are born to trolloc mothers, basically they are throwbacks to the human roots of trollocs. Probably the first trollocs where created about like the Uruk Hai, a bit more clean an in the lab but the same concept, but in the third age they breed and replenish their number by having offspring. About five percent of the children trollocs have are Myrddraal which have led some to speculate that what creates them are the channeling gene, that when a trolloc baby is born that should have been a channeler if born to a human that child will be a Myrddraal. Now whatever or not trollocs and Myrddraal grow up faster than human do, that is possible. I mean if i was an evil technomancer intent on creating an army of beastmen to secure victory for my inhuman master I would add in a feature so I do not have to wait fifteen to twenty years for them to be useful. When that is said, most of the animals that the trollocs are mixed with reach adulthood allot quicker than humans and the trolloc might grow at their rate, a fate however is a throwback to the human side of the equation so they might take longer to reach adulthood.

     

    We know that you can not shield or sever someone unless they have

    actively channeled. Not sure how that fits here but just tossing it out.

     

    Yes we know this, however fades are said to have some connection to channeling several times, and they can sense channeling. I guess the question that came up during my RPG session was whatever or not the powers a fade have is channeling though a limited and rather crippled version of it, you have the 13 channelers plus 13 fades theory which sound to me rather much like a form of linking. Now it is clear that the fades are not full channelers or fireballs would be flying from the shadows, but is it possible that what they can do, the fear they can cause, the fading, their ability to sense channeling and channelers and so on is due to some limited use of the One Power? For if so they would have an active but limited connection to the Source.

  11. This actually came up and me and my hubby where playing some Wheel of Time roleplaying. Myrddraal have some connection to channeling, one theory is that they are created when the channeling gene show up in a trolloc offspring, and they are needed to tun channelers to the Shadow. My question then is, could someone shield a fade, or try to sever them and what would the result be if it was tried.

     

    Also I was wondering are Myrddraal born without eyes or do they loose them as they come of age, and at what age to they start to be able to teleport using shadows, I can imagine it to be rather frustrating for their trolloc mother if they do it from birth.

  12. Question relating to chapter 47 of tSR.  This is the chapter when Elaida

    and co. come to Siuan's office to depose her.  When they leave the

    office, Siuan stumbles when she sees that her Warder Alric has been

    killed (knife to the back).  My question is, how did Siuan not know he

    had died through the bond?

     

    This part I have been wondering about as well, it seam odd to me as Aes Sedai usually know at once and react with great sorrow when their Warders die. The only explanation I could think about is that the bond become muddied when the Aes Sedai is shielded, perhaps the stress of the situation made Siuan not notice that her Warder was dead due to the bond becoming weaker since she at the time was shielded, that do seam a bit odd as well but I guess that could explain it.

  13. This might already have been posted and if so then I am sorry. I have read somewhere that the White Tower is 600 feet tall. When looking up a list on Wikipedia about skyscrapers I see that most of those who are 600 feet have 35 to 45 floors, so I do not think it is unlikely that the White Tower have something of the same number of floors.

  14. 1.  Do Warders live a normal lifespan or is it enhanced at all by the

    bond?  (as a side note, how long is a normal life expectancy in the

    WoT?)

     

    They have normal lifespans in general but since they have better vitality and keep it longer they should by common medical logic be able to live a bit longer that most people since people do not generally die from old age, one die from illnesses that either often come with age or which become fatal when a person become weakened with age. Now as for life expectancy, in the Two Rivers if I am not completely mistaken there is mentioned a man who is over 90 and that is treated as very rare. I am guessing here but somewhere in their 70s would be my estimate as to average life expectancy.

     

    2.  Why does Nynaeve not have any problem with being bound with the oath

    rod when she knows it will drastically reduce her lifespan?  Especially

    as her immediate peers, Elayne and Egwene, are not bound by it.

     

    My guess is that when she look forward to a 300+ years lifespan, not getting 600 or more do not seam to be to bad for what she gains in respectability for taking the oaths, also she knows the oaths are reversible so it is not to big a deal.

  15. I always assumed that their 'rooms' in the kennel were small, maybe 6/7

    feet squared (big enough for a small bed and desk and not a lot else). 

    We see them getting exercised, to prevent them from getting fat, and I'm

    pretty sure that withholding exercise is a punnishment (isn't Teslyn(?

    AS Mat rescues) prevented from exercise as the sul'dam think something's

    up, next time Mat sees her she's looking 'ragged'?).  But unless

    their's something different about Elaynes a'dam (other than the lack of a

    leash) damane don't have unlimited movement without consequences,

    although I'll go as high as a few feet of movement :).

     

    The sul'dam that I again can not remember the name of comments that the kennels the damane get on the mainland is to small indicating that normally a damane would have allot more room to move. I think there is something special with Elayne's a'dam there for everything that is indicated in the books is that damane can move as much as they want as long as they do not move the bracelet. Also Egwene's kennel is big enough that she, Min and Renna can be inside at the same time even if it is then a bit crowded, cleaning such a room would entail moving more than a few feet. I think that it is made rather clear that they can move as long as the leash reaches, but off course there is a limit to that.

     

    Now as for lack of exercise being a punishment, it might but I think that have more to do with the boredom of sitting in a small room all day with nothing to do but stare at the walls. The reason why Teslyn is looking worse for wear the next time Mat see her is that the sul'dam think she is up to something and recommend that she be broken which she comments creates the most obedient damane but which is a uncomfortable process which requires stern punishments for even the smallest slight and even a damane's best effort earning he hardly a pat on the head as reward, that will wear most people down and make them look a bit ragged over time.

     

    All the damane move around in their kennels, they clean, they kneel, they walk to the windows, and also when Renna want to teach Egwene a lesson she orders her to lift her own bracelet which causes pain and cramps, not moving around while the bracelet is on a peg. Also the reason why Egwene have not been able to study the bracelet is that is is seamless, she can not see how it opens and closes without lifting it up and studying it more in detail which would be rather painful to do, and also she do figure out how the collar is opened and closed but trying to touch it with the intention of opening it causes pain. It never however say that she can not move as long as the the bracelet stay in place.

     

    Also it makes sense for Elayne's a'dam to have a feature to prevent how far Moggy can go or she could just run for the hills when no one is looking, a normal a'dam however do not need it as the leash provides a limit for how far the damane can go without moving the bracelet.

     

     

    You can attack your suldam but any pain the suldam feels the damane

    feels twice over. So they would learn quickly not to strike their suldam

    and not to let any harm come to them.

     

    Yes but that is only when the sul'dam is wearing the bracelet, not when it is on a peg. This do lead me to another question though, is this true for normal Circles as well? I mean if two Aes Sedai is linking and you poke one with a needle, will the other one feel it?

  16. I do not think that it is any problem for a damane to move around as much as she want as long as they do not move the bracelet. I mean in Book 10 where you have that sul'dam I have forgotten the name of who is doing the rounds she comments on that damane is expected to clean their own rooms for example, they could not do that if they could not move, and besides it would not be healthy is they where to sit like statues all day. The only thing that is mentioned is that a damane can only take a few steps holding her own bracelet before being overcome by pain and cramps. Egwene walks around in her room, bow and so on without having any signs of discomfort.

  17.  

    Additionally until they came to Randland, Damane genuinely thought

    they should be collared and were grateful to the sul'dam for collaring

    them, so none of them would have tried.

     

    I don't know one of the Sul'Dam in the books comment that many of the damane is upset when they are captured, that they are reeling that they failed their test and that while it is harder to find acceptance from mainlander women I do get the sense that not all the Seanchan damane is happy about their lot from the start either.

  18. I think it have to do with how you think about it, or in this case not think about it. Egwene did not really think she just acted. Another possibility is that it is a safety mechanism of the a'dam that parts of your own body do not count, obviously the damane can use their channeling as a weapon just fine, perhaps they can also hit someone with a first if they want or use their hair as a garrote.

  19. I would say Egwene and Gawyn. I mean I get why they get a crush on one another, she is pretty an he is a handsome nobleman. I mean what 17 or 18 year old girl (Was that not about the age she was when she met him?) would not fall for the handsome nobleman who show her attention, however it never appear to me to be more than a crush and it is never developed, so I would say that pair get high up on the list for the worst romance. I am not to fond of Perrin and Faile either, I mean she is princess Peach for crying out loud and is just there to be annoying and occasionally be the damsel in distress. That being said, as much as I love WoT and I really love the series, it is my favorite fantasy series, I do not think romance was handled particularly well in it in general to be honest, I never got that warm, puppy eyed feeling from any of the couples, and actually the pair I liked best was Mo and Siuan, they where at least sweet together.

  20. The Pattern chooses those who can do the task, and which are likely to do the task. If the Pattern need someone to land an army and defeat an evil empire it is not likely to choose a 97 year old grandmother who can barely walk and is starting to get a bit demented, it will choose a young man or a woman who have the necessary talents and the necessary charisma to get the job done and then it will put other people in their way that can teach them what they need to know. Yes the Pattern can force someone to follow their destiny, but it is much more easy to just nudge them along so that their lives naturally flow in that direction. Now I think that the Pattern have planned it all out from beginning to end, through all the ages so that when a person is born their destiny is already in place, the Wheel do not sit and double click on random individuals like a kid playing the Sims and say...okey you will be doing this, and you will be doing that. Instead when a person is born they already have all the talents needed to complete their task and the personality to do so and they are born into an environment that strengthen these traits, it is all laid out for them from long before they where born. Or at least that is how I think it works.

  21. Some of the reason why the Forsaken is getting beaten is that the ones doing the defeating is often destined to do so, it is not a balanced fight however knowledge off course give an edge, a very big edge but it is not like with a computer game where stats are everything, sure most of the Forsaken would have better "stats" in the Power than the third age channelers, but that do not mean they would necessarily win in a fight. First of all fights are unpredictable and many of the Forsaken get defeated because the third agers play dirty so to speak, they use physical attacks as well which the Forsaken never expected as they where so focuses on their channeling and little else, so Nyn distracts Rahvin and she also tosses shit right smack at Moggy's head which she do not expect.

     

    If I where to bet money on either Rand or Sammael in a completely fair fight I would bet on the latter, but that do not mean it would be a sure thing that he would win, yes the Forsaken know allot more about the Power but that do not mean that Rand and the others channelers in the third age are useless or that they can not put up a decent fight, obviously they can.

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