11 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

We see Rand and Mat's struggles, we see Perrin and Egwene's before the tinkers take them in.  I understood the struggles, unsure why you didn't.

Sure, we see them struggle for a bit, and I can understand the struggle, but I am not invested in the struggle that takes more build up. That is the difference for me. I don't feel their struggle and hopelessness.

11 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

You're misunderstanding the issue.  It wasn't "Because Covid there weren't a lot of extras"  it was "Because Covid we had to completely shut down filming for months, lose most of our sets and when we got back to shooting we had a ridiculous tight schedule to get those last two episodes done and ready."

I read this as you being part of the crew then? In that case kudos to you. I am sure most people of the crew and cast did their absolute best, and I am quite confident that the issue still is the writing and vision (because honestly, we can't blame the budget as they had an enormous budget that they right went and squandered on who knows what...). A bad foundation will still bring down an otherwise expertly built house.

As a business owner I have grown to make a big distinction between explanations and excuses. Covid can explain how plans fell through and how the plans might have needed to adapt. But it's not an excuse for not doing the ground work properly, it doesn't excuse it being bad.

And we see this in GoT too. In the first seasons, when there are still books to go on. The story works and everything fits together. Then when the show's writers have to start making things up on their own, we get poorer quality in the writing. I am sure time is a large factor in this, just as it was for WoT production.

No, my two cents is to take the budget allotted to season two and three, and break that up into three instead of two. Then do a complete reboot of the whole thing with new people at the helm. Because honestly, this show, for me, is a complete disaster. So beautiful, with a great cast and with so much potential, yet a disaster.

But we are entitled to different opinions. This is just my take on what made GoT a hit with non-fantasy viewers flocking to it while WoT has a hard time even keeping the fantasy nerds watching. ?

 

5 hours ago, Asthereal said:

And if Jordan had been the one to write the ending, for sure there would have been more. More Padan Fain, more Alivia, more last hunt. And probably a lot more other stuff I didn't know I wanted. The thing with Jordan is he takes his time. If he'd been around to finish his series, I reckon it'd be at least two, potentially three or four books longer.

Spot on. 

There was definitely a change of pace when Sanderson took it up. And it was much needed tbh. So all in all I am very happy with the conclusion. Just that I wanted to savor some of the bits more, really get into the nitty gritty of the moments the way RJ had a knack for. Taking his time setting the stage and giving everyone all the room they needed to be their full self (Which incidentally is why I started liking Nynaeve in these last three books when she didn't have time to be her full constanly foul mooded, braidtugging and obnoxious self.). 

4 hours ago, Humbugged2 said:

And you must have missed the 'month later ' thing on the episode when they were all travelling

Case in point, I sure didn't miss in the books when a chapter started with "month later", since there was no need to tell us that in the books. Instead we were shown the hardships and hopelessness of it all. 

Also I don't buy into size of the world as an argument for not portraying the vastness better. Nor Covid as an excuse for not having larger groups of people, that is all a matter of CG. 

It's poor writing and lack of budget and/or vision. Nothing else. ?

I have had a long relationship with WoT. It started around the time when Crown of Swords was released and I was about 12 years old. I have reread the first books many times in anticipation for the next release. But I got thrown off after Knife of Dreams where my life went into young adult hood and my priorities changed. 

I just reread the whole series and finally got the conclusion to this masterpiece. 

One thing on rereading the series as a 37 year old with a family of my own is that I have a different appreciation for some of the hardships. I can have another kind of empathy with parents watching children suffer or of Perrin losing his family. As a teenager that wasn't such a big deal and just something to move the story forward kind of.

But to the topic. I think Sanderson did a great job in taking over and I am impressed with how he took RJ's notes, extensive as they might have been, and forged something from them that fit together so well. Superb. This is in no way a criticism of the work. But just my ramblings of what I wanted to have more of.

As I was reading the final three, I couldn't shake the feeling of being rushed toward a conclusion. I can't fault Sanderson for this as there were about a million loose ends to tie up and since it wouldn't make sense to have even more books written by a ghost writer after one became three (of 14 total) already. So no fault of his, but I do wonder about a few things that I felt didn't get enough attention.

1. Isam and Luc
I always looked forward to a Lan and Isam moment. And also there were the comments from Jain too where he wanted Mat to let any Malkieri he ran into know that Jain died a good man. I don't remember the details, but I think there was a connection there with Jain's treachery and Isam - and then there were the dark prophecies in the dungeons of Fal Dara and Moiraine saying that Lan can't know. 

On the same note, I also thought there could have been some deeper prodding at the whole Luc and Tigraine thing. How Luc is Rand's uncle and all the mess that could have made.

2. Alivia
I found that Alivia was built up for a more prominent role than she got. There was the whole Min viewing and Rand having her close by, she is ancient and extremely powerful which then kind of dwindled out to her just leaving him some money and clothes for his new life.

3. The last hunt
I can see how there was a last hunt. But I kind of think Perrin could have played a bigger role in it. Now it was more like him having his hunt of Slayer while the wolves helped guard Shayol Ghul as a favor to him. Then for a brief moment the dead wolves come back as they unite to clean up when the horn is blown there, almost like an afterthought (I did however love how they were bound by the horn - showing that there is more to existance and the pattern than humans).

Maybe there could have been something more like Perrin's hunt for slayer being tied to the wolves hunt of their shadow brothers. 
 

4. Moiraine
There is a long buildup for Moiraine's return. I think her and Thom's relationship in the first books, the separate longing for a situation where they could be something else, is one of the more beautiful details of the series. Then her letter and the long build up for the Tower of Ghenji. Leading to her coming back, giving a few sentences of sage advice, and then a day of hugging a stone.

There could have been more there before Shayol Ghul. There could have been more tension between her and Cadsuane for example. Something else from Lan too. 

5. Mat's handling of the battle at Fields of Merrilor
I think the battle was portrayed good, as good as a battle of that vastness with so many different players could have been portrayed. I think the whole ruse with the Seanchan was a good gamble and it worked great. So here we have everyone and their mother doubting Mat in some way or another. Thinking him mad, seeing how he does things that kind of work out and that they can't see how he could have known to plan for, but also doubting. With Mat stepping in to lead the final stand himself as it's time for that final hand of cards to be played. And he pulls it off beautifully. 

He gets no retribution from everyone who doubted him, instead he picks Olver up and goes to SHayol ghul where he stumbles into the invincible Fain whom he knifes and then that's that. 

I can see how I would have loved to have the books about him and Tuon on Seanchanland, as he is my fav character. But I kind of felt like.. Ok, so here is the nobody whom nobody believed in, who pulled off the impossible with his cunning and and gets no thanks for it.

But that is life I guess, and Mat himself would probably have a few choice words about how there is no bloody thanks to Matrim bloody Cauthon for saving the day as everyone and their noble bloody selves are too important to bother... 

6. The End
Wonderful! I loved it, all the twists and the realization that it wasn't Rand who was fighting the Dark One, but everyone and that he was just their symbol and champion. And that there needs to be a balance as there can be no good without evil. No joy without sorrow, or pleasure without pain. 

I loved how Perrin gave Lanfear an end fitting herself, how Alanna released the bond without hesitation just as she one time placed it on Rand, and how Rand lit his pipe without the one power as he rode off into the sunset (metaphorically)...  

But I want more!!  ?

I read the books way back. Never got further than Knife of Dreams as we all know what happened after. When Sanderson finished the series, I kept putting it off and never got around to reading the last three, until I started watching the TV-show...So I just finished rereading the whole series as I was so disappointed by the show that I needed to set things straight. 

I think the question here is an interesting one. Many here seems to blame WoT's lack of success (compared to GoT) on things like timing, or the streaming format being saturated, or there only being room for one fantasy series for the mainstream. 

I think all of those completely miss the mark. 

WoT isn't a success because of the TV show's crappy writing and poor execution. That's what I think.

Better comparisons would be to compare WoT to The Shannara Chronicles or even Xena the warrior princess or something. 

GoT is a success because it's an intriguing story that isn't black and white. There are deep political currents and there are good guys who do bad things and bad guys who do good things. They make sure to stick to everything they introduce and they take care not to introduce items or characters that don't play a role in telling the story. Also they don't rush things.

WoT in the books has an intriguing story. While it may be more black and white (in good vs evil), there is still a lot of room in between, and the characters still have depth. The TV-show doesn't do this justice, even though I'm sure they tried (as with Perrin accidentally killing his wife...).

The problem is that it doesn't make sense or add up. If someone who is usually very timid and careful accidentally kills his wife, he should be devastated and question the very existence of anything good in the world. Instead it's almost portrayed more as him worrying what others might think of him if they found out. And how could there ever be a love triangle between him and Rand when he just killed his wife a couple of days ago (as the pacing in the tv-show kind of suggests)?.

I mean, an adaptation that cuts many of the important characters and changes so many things is one thing. But you still need to make sure the story and the writing is solid and that it all adds up and builds on the overall story that you invest in, where you care what happens to those people. In GoT we care about the injustice to Ned and Stark family's revenge. We care about Joffrey in the sense that we are angered by his constant escape from justice... We care to see him eventually face it.

Others have also noted on this. But WoT jumps from here to there without any idea of how far that distance is. There are lots of isolated events but nothing to create the overall tension needed to keep a viewer invested in what's to happen next. 

Also there is no grandness to WoT. 

In GoT you have vast distances, and vast armies. In WoT the world is shrunk (by making the first waypoint from the Two Rivers be Tar Valon instead of Baerlon, down to Whitebridge, through Four Kings then Caemlyn before the long leg up to Tar Valon). You should have every lance in the Shienar ride to Tarwins Gap, instead you have 20 riders and 100 infantrymen going out to fight the big battle at Tarwins Gap. What is that about? Trollocs should be a sea of black without end. You can't expect me to believe that you are able to fend of the shadow and keep a watch of the blight year after year with some 120 soldiers...

Moiraine et al. running into the scary whitecloaks early in the series. Lan and Moiraine, they can bully their way through 20 Whitecloaks if they wish. 

I think that is where they went wrong with WoT. They didn't put enough into writing a good story for the adaptation. They didn't build up the tension of the small insignificant youths going out into a vast world where everything is grander and dangerous than they can imagine. Going out to face the largest threat ever with nothing as of yet but their ignorance and a little bit of dumb luck.