16 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Likening the Wheel of Time to trashy, semi-erotic works with no value as literature does not do anything but demean Jordan's writing,

A lot of people would dismiss fantasy this exact same way. RJ seemed to think that romance wasn't a waste of time seeing as he takes so many cues from the genre and (as I mentioned before) pitched a bodice ripper to Harriet when they first met which later became the Fallon Blood series. 

19 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

it makes no difference if the bodice ripper was written by a woman. Why would it?

I think it matters in the sense that isn't it weird that the "male gaze" (as it's so reductively called) is EVERYWHERE in books written by and for heterosexual women? The male gaze is supposedly supposed to appeal to men, but men aren't the audience in romance. Yet the "male gaze" remains.

I can pretty much guarantee that more fictional bosoms have heaved over the last century as a result of women than men. So how is this a male problem? 

3 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Multiple times I can see a lot of the issues she points out, it is a very male centric book in terms of the prose etc. 

Not really responding to you specifically here, just weighing in on this aspect of Jordan's writing. Mainly, I find it extremely strange that people consider these things (the descriptions of women particularly, but also other related aspects like the stereotypical male/female dynamics) are "male" in nature when it seems pretty clear that these things are actually much, much more common in fiction written by women.

Romance is the biggest literary genre in the world, almost exclusively written and read by women, and if you read most anything in that genre, you're not going to find 21st century gender politics represented very heavily haha The "heaving bosoms" and "brooding male" dynamic is a female creation and a hallmark of the single largest and most successful literary genre in the world. 

My point is that RJ was a fan of bodice ripper romance, and one of the first books that he pitched to Harriet was a bodice ripper (this pitch later became the Fallon Blood series). So yeah, RJ was a man, but the style that he uses in WoT is pretty obviously inspired by WOMEN'S FICTION. 

So yeah, RJ focuses a lot on his female characters' appearances and bosoms, but I think laying that at his feet as "sexist" or just "man writing" is sort of disingenuous when it's really just a feature of a genre that he liked and was drawing on while writing WoT. 

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

The show is focusing on prioritizing character development

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

1 minute ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

There is zero reason assume that showrunner is not attempting to make the best adaptation that they can.

Rafe is definitely trying to make the best TV show that he can.  But he's definitely not trying to make the best adaptation he can. If you want to hear what it sounds like when a showrunner actually gives a crap about the source material and making a good and faithful adaptation, read literally anything that the One Piece showrunners have every said. The difference is stark and undeniable. Those guys care. Rafe is just making excuses. 

But all of this is pointless. You are right about that. The fact is that Rafe is not a good writer, and no amount of fidelity to the books was every going to make this show good so long as he was running the show. Perrin's wife is unforgiveable, and he stands by it to this day, unlike Sanderson who will freely admit the places where his WoT books fell short (Mat's character, timelines, his prose etc.)

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

“We are trying to explain the one power as it's emotionally relevant to the characters and go deeper visually simultaneous to that explanation. The two halves of the one power get more time the deeper the series goes.”

This is exactly what I said it was. He's dripfeeding it out like it's deep lore when there have been all sorts of opportunities (Moiraine explaining the Power to Egwene in episode 2 and telling Rand she can't train him come immediately to mind) where the writers could have just said, "The One Power is two halves. Men use one half. Women used the other." Wham, bam, thank you ma'am. But no. 

Explaining the power as it's "emotionally relevant" is PR double-speak. It means literally nothing. The split has been relevant from the beginning, no matter what spin Rafe tries to put on it.

I'd love to see Rafe's remake of A New Hope where Obi Wan never explains the force to Luke because it's not "emotionally relevant" until Empire or something. 

4 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

It is all very well everyone using their amazing insights to know who better writer is, who is the best script writer, who's ego thinks they are the best writer, but it still all comes across as ad hominem attacks on the showrunner. Which as someone was pointing out is exactly what was aimed at Mr Sanderson back when he was writing the last books.

The fact that some people also complained about Sanderson's book doesn't: 

1. Make the degree and validity of those complaints equivalent

2. Mean that WoPrime and the Sanderson books are equivalent in quality

3. Make the show's changes/liberties anywhere near equivalent to the variations present in Sanderson's books which were informed by countless hours pouring over the novels, RJ's own notes on the story and world (which were millions of words long) and under the direct oversight of Harriet herself as well as RJ's personal assistants. As opposed to Rafe's changes which amount to, "Lol what if Perrin killed his wife. Also I'll give her the name of Perrin's first crush from the books. That's fidelity folks!" 

4. Invalidate criticism of Rafe's creative decisions

If Rafe wanted people to just focus on what his show "is," he should have either stuck more closely to the books (which would have resulted in less criticism, though the amount never would have been 0) or pitched Amazon on an original show. Comparison to the original is part of the deal when you make an adaptation. 

5 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

-excerpt from an interview that WoTSeries did with Rafe: "Tidbit: apparently 70% of readers of all 14 books thought the show was as good or better than the books, he notes this is taken largely from non-online spaces."

Lol did you see in the most recent AMA he did where someone asked him if the power was going to have the the male/female, saidin/saidar split like in the books and he was like (paraphrased), "Well, we've gotta dripfeed that information to the audience." Can[t give them everything all at once!" as if the split was some crazy deep lore that needs multiple seasons of buildup to establish. 

RJ established the split right up front because, obviously, it's an absolutely fundamental aspect of the story and world, but Rafe obviously thinks that he knows better. Clearly, it's much more important to establish that Warders and Aes Sedai have polyamourous sexual relationships than to clarify a fundamental detail of the WoT universe. 

The gap between RJ and Brandon's abilities are writers is pretty vast, IMO... but it's the width of a paper when compared to the galaxy of difference between Rafe and Brandon or the Universe sized gulf between Rafe and RJ. 

For all his weaknesses as a writer (namely, bland and unevocative prose), Brandon excels at worldbuilding (albeit in a limited, TV-esque sort of way that falls well short of the meticulous realism RJ preferred), crafting character arcs, establishing consistent motivations, dripfeeding information to the audience, basic setup and payoff . . . e.g. just about EVERYTHING the show is bad at. 

On 9/24/2023 at 8:43 AM, Elder_Haman said:

He’s not though. The books are, just like the show, about an ensemble. To the extent that there are “main characters” it is the EFF. Rand is simply the axis 

Yeah, and Danny Ocean isn't the main character of Ocean's Eleven. Give me a break. Ensemble stories still have main characters. This is such a tired excuse, spoonfed directly by the showrunners so they could justify making Nyneave the main character. 

Wait so Mat wasn't pro-slavery? Dang. All this time I thought he was based smh

1 minute ago, Scarloc99 said:

it is really really good to see it represented in fantasy fiction because it helps to normalise it and help people see it is ok. 

You know, there's a lot of things that are really important to me too that I would love to see represented more in fantasy fiction buuuuuuuut that doesn't mean I'm okay with those things being shoehorned into stories that didn't already have them. 

Like, how out of place would it be if Rand saw the Seanchan and all of the sudden had a 5 minute aside where he extolled the virtues of democracy over tyranny? And then what if it kept happening? Over and over, needlessly driving in this theme that is only tangentially related to the story as a whole? You would hate that. And so would I. 

WoT doesn't have to be EVERYTHING to me. I'm fine with WoT just being WoT. I have other stories to scratch the itches that WoT can't reach. 

On 9/7/2023 at 4:35 AM, Scarloc99 said:

I think at the time I knew both characters where important later on as well, and it seemed fairly obvious the Balefire foreshadowing that had happened up until then. 

I think the foreshadowing is the difference. A fake-out death is bad when the character just kinda turns out not to be dead. RJ set up the balefire thing, so when Mat came back to life, it was actually an earned bit of payoff rather than an instance where the author tried to just bait the audience with something cheap. 

I'm re-reading the series rn, and I haven't read the Sanderson entries in more than 10 years. I loved them at the time. I'm a little nervous to get back to them. Style-wise, there almost isn't anyone I could imagine being worse to take over for RJ than Brandon. His prose is so minimalist. I asked him about it once, and he said that his approach is to make his prose invisible. That is just the total opposite of RJ who is on the record talking about all the time he spent slaving over his sentences. 

That being said, I do still like Sanderson's books on their own, and he definitely knows how to weave together plot threads to create satisfying moments. In that regard, I think he's the best at what he does. Just like RJ was the best at delivering great writing. So maybe it will all balance out in the end? 

9 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Thom wasn't in TGH,

Thom is definitely in TGH. Rand runs into him performing in a tavern. Thom is dating a really young girl (0% chance that ends up in the show. Only relationships with Rafe's stamp of approval are allowed) who gets killed by Darkfriends. Thom and Rand meet up at that banquet/ball thing Rand gets invited to. Thom kills the king of Cairhein. 

1 hour ago, Kaleb said:

How many times do we hear about Domani using sex appeal for trading advantage, how often is RJ inviting us to ogle cleavage, how many times does he invite us to laugh at how our hayseed heroes are being absolutely roasted for their naivety?

True, but you've got to admit that there's a difference between RJ's approach which is usually something like, "The woman wore a sheer dress that left little to the imagination. Egwene blushed furiously," and Alanna explaining the logistics of a threesome. Indirect vs. Direct. WoT is indirect with its treatment of sex. WoPrime is direct, and this change was purposefully made to suit Rafe's personal tastes rather than any idea of fidelity to the source. 

This isn't to say that a book accurate adaptation of WoT would be prudish or anything. The books are full of nudity and women in sexy clothing. That being said, Rafe's current approach isn't in line with that either. Prolly too much "male gaze" or something. Instead, he's giving us fanfiction where relationships that he wants to see are shown and explored in unnecessary depth. Meanwhile, sexuality that actually was present in the books is largely ignored. Again, probably because it would be "problematic." 

Just saying. If Rafe wanted sexuality, there was plenty to draw on. Instead, as usual, he just did his own thing. 

2 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

I have seen some very succesfull poly relationships, at least up to this point one I know has lasted 7 years,

Lol says a lot that this is an outlier

The show's approach to sex in WoT is one of its most confusing elements and one of the most obvious ways that Rafe just decided to turn the show into his own personal fan fiction. In the books, sex is hinted at. It's there, but it isn't a focus. Characters are very old-fashioned around sex, and they often become flustered or embarrassed when the subject is raised. Rand is a virgin until Book 5, and Perrin (if I remember correctly) waits until marriage. The Sea Folk captain in the Shadow Rising mentions having to "make up" with her husband and then makes a sideways remark about how making up with him is pretty fun, and she's one of the more overtly sexual characters in the series. Sex in the books is intimate and, in public, is almost always approached indirectly, suggested rather than discussed outright. 

Ironically, the most sexually charged POV from the books is Mat and there is simply NO CHANCE IN HELL that Rafe is going to do Mat justice in that way. No doubt, he just sees book Mat as a toxic male that he has to reform. 

In my opinion, Rafe's desire to present more realistic relationships shows a total misunderstanding of the books which is all to characteristic of him. 

Yeah, the book relationships are "unrealistic" but there's very little evidence to suggest that this wasn't intentional on RJ's part. Early in his career, he wrote bodice rippers! He liked over the top emotions. A scene like Rand kissing Elayne for the first time could be taken straight out of a dime store novel. That's the point! These relationships aren't supposed to be "realistic" or "healthy" or "representative." They're supposed to be passionate and intense and raw and, in my opinion, they actually come across as much more honest than modern approaches to writing romance. 

In my opinion, you actually could ramp up the sex in WoT and not lose too much of the spirit of the books. You keep the character's innocent beginnings and then have them all open up sexually (which is what happens in the books) but instead of portraying it like the show does, make it like Outlander. Draw on WoT's bodice ripper DNA and lean into that. 

In short: Rafe is trying to be all mature, but in truth, his take on sex in WoT actually betrays his immaturity. Rafe is obsessed with sex. RJ cared about romance. Small differences, but it's this stuff that makes all the difference. 

14 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

what do the Aes Sedai think they have to fear from Logain now that he’s been gentled?

If they had nothing to fear from him, why did the Aes Sedai in the books guard him so closely? Just saying, if the Aes Sedai in the books thought there was reason to guard Logain and the TV show wants to just dump him somewhere random so that he can run into Rand more conveniently, it's on the show to justify that. 

But like, why are they even bothering with the accents? Accents are tied to geography. People in time periods analogous to the one WoT takes place in spent generations living and dying together, insulated from most of the rest of the world, so they developed unique ways of speaking which differentiated them from people from other places. 

Given how the showrunners have already spent so many words "refuting" certain other characteristics which develop over time in certain geographical locations and are shared between the peoples of those geographical locations (cough cough), I ask again, why are they even bothering with the accents?

Randland may "look" like the modern world, but it sure doesn't sound like it. How are Lithuanians who watch the show supposed to relate to any of the characters if they can't hear themselves in the characters' voices? Emond's Field should have had Chinese accents, British accents, American accents, Russian accents, and Japanese accents at the very least. Instead, all the main characters have British accents. For shame. 

On 9/5/2023 at 5:25 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Why would they be concerned about another male channeler who has been gentled? He does not threaten them.

Yeah, it's not like the Aes Sedai in the books didn't keep him imprisoned at the White Tower and under constant supervision and that he only managed to escape by taking advantage of Elaida's coup. No reason to be concerned about a gentled Dragon. None at all. 

On 9/6/2023 at 1:37 PM, DigificWriter said:

It's already been confirmed that Season 3's story is going to largely (and nigh-exclusively) be derived from The Shadow Rising (Book 4).

Can I get a source for this? Because I had it on good authority that Season 3's story was actually going to be derived nigh-exclusively from Rafe's anal cavity. 

... 

But Rand will go to Rhuidean and there'll be a few threesomes, so it's fine. 

I just don't get it. I don't think I've ever seen a show that was as ashamed of its source material as Wheel of Prime. Even the Shannara Chronicles wasn't this bad. That show was just trying to aim its source material at teens. It wasn't constantly apologizing for its source material the way that Wheel of Prime does. 

It seems like every other decision Rafe made was to fix something that he considered morally objectionable about the books. Too much toxic masculinity? Not enough representation? Not enough sex? Gendered magic system? A prophecy specifically dealing with a man? Not enough focus on the female characters early in the series? Slightly outdated interactions between men and women? No problem. I'll fix that for ya. "I love the books, but you know what? They'd have been better if I could go back in time and write them myself," is Rafe's entire ethos. 

What Rafe has done to Wheel of Time is nothing short of blatant bowlderization for the 21st century, and like always there's a loyal audience of yuppies eager to lap up anything that reinforces their myopic worldview even if it doesn't have an ounce of artistic integrity. 

MEANWHILE Netflix's One Piece adaptation is based on a property that is 1091 Chapters long and has been running for over 20 years and yet somehow managed to do a mostly accurate adaptation of the first several arcs without resorting to Rafe's "We have to adapt the entire series" BS that he used to justify the massive deviations he made right off the bat. And fans love it! It has a 95% audience score based on over 5000 reviews on RottenTomatoes. Wheel of Prime Season 2 can't match that even after Season 1 alienated everyone who might leave a negative review on Season 2 anyway. 

4 hours ago, forte12 said:

You may think the character is pathetic but that’s your own bullshit seeping through and not the fault of the actor. Whatever bullshit you feel about masculinity and the way men / warders are supposed to act is your own, don’t burden us with them. It’s trite at this point.

I think the real question is this: Do you want the warders to be portrayed accurately to the books or are you okay with Rafe shoving his politics down our throats so long as you agree with them? Because, whether you like it or not, the Warders in the books are not a vision of healthy masculinity. They're not supposed to be. Wheel of Time is not a prescriptive series; it's descriptive. The warders are meant to act like hyper competent, hyper masculine men who have seen some s***. It's very likely that their attitude was based off of officers/soldiers that RJ served with in Vietnam. The fact is that most warders in the books are presented as emotionally distant because, like it or not, that's what men in their position normally end up being. Again, The Wheel of Time is descriptive, not prescriptive. It's not supposed to tell us the right way to be a man, it's just showing a very specific type of man. And that type of man, like it or not/healthy behavior or not, just doesn't tend to be very connected to his emotions. 

So, what we have here is another example of Rafe projecting his politics onto the story. He looked at the warders and instead of seeing people, he saw toxic masculinity and took its upon himself to bowlderize it for the good of society. 

2 hours ago, Storeebooq said:

As a queer person, it's been pretty great to see this kind of banter and chat in the show. RJ had plenty of this when he talked about Green sisters and multiple warders, plus other instances. It was just very straight-centric and heteronormative. This is more honest, and as someone who is well experienced with polyamorous relationships, it is all very spot on. 

Read: "Seeing my preferred political opinions on TV > fidelity to source material." 

Got it. While we're at it, why doesn't Rafe make the Whitecloaks the good guys to appeal to all the Catholics in the audience? Does he not care about how hurt Catholic people might feel when the closest analog to themselves the show has to offer are presented as villains? Smh. 

11 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

  

 

It is now.
It was not earlier.

Please try to keep up. You're four hours late to the party. Calm down, stan.

https://web.archive.org/web/20230831135219/https://www.ign.com/articles/the-wheel-of-time-season-2-episodes-1-4-review-prime-video

Yeah man, cool. I apologize. I never should have questioned your delusional conspiracy theory by which, out of sheer nerd insecurity, you meant to discredit the only review on the internet that disagreed with your pre-meditated opinion of a show you've never seen. 

I yield.